Ray W
Enthusiast
Please review.....Average for the money. What is weird is that with all this information I haven't cancelled my order yet.
11.1@ 127 Pretty strong!
- Thread starter pumpgas
- Start date
Please review.....Average for the money. What is weird is that with all this information I haven't cancelled my order yet.
Ray W
Enthusiast
I remember a time when it was possible and I don't know why it is no longer important. I don't care for AWD. Is 640hp more politically correct or safer than 750hp? The platform certainly could have supported it. People will pay for a 14K paint job but you don't think we would pay a 10K gas guzzler tax for an additional 100hp? I think SRT should have given its past buyers what they wanted as well as their potential new buyers.
chorps
Enthusiast
I think that the paint comparison is a bit of a specious argument because the engine doesn't cost 10k alone. The development of a new engine will be millions of dollars and years of development and certification, whilst a paint job can be approved in a fraction of that cost and time for development.
Heck, if they are going to go for 750hp I want 850hp. Canada doesn't have a gas guzzler tax per se, but there is a high fuel consumption penalty (levy) that can run as high as 3k.
FLL-B/W-GTS
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2007
- Posts
- 575
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You see, what the problem is here, is those of us who have or had several Vipers over the years are use to the Vipers being the fastest high performance car out their for the money. We are use to that, but unfortunately the Gen.5 s just don,t have what it takes to keep up with the new breed of HP/AWD Cars. That is very disappointing to many. I also want to buy a new Viper,,but I will not unless SRT does a significant bump up in the power dept,which will put the Gen.5 were it needs to be in the food chain.Next year their will be a new C7 ZR1 and a new 991/911 Turbo S with 3 turbos,when they come out ,the gap will widen ever further if SRT does not step it up.
Ray W
Enthusiast
My comparison was more in line with the fact that buyers of a 110K car would spend 14K for a special paint or even 140K for a launch edition. Then maybe they should have explored the likelihood that ******** Viper lovers would have paid 10,15 or 20K for a 750hp car.
While the cost of the paint development may be easier maybe only 50 cars will be produced per year. Now if SRT knows that 1000-1500 buyers will pay the premium for a more powerfull engine. Then deveopment and certification would have been free. Then there really would have been a new Killer looking,riding and driving GEN V.
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You are wrong again, a 3.55 diff with a 27.6" tire is identical to a 26" tire and 3.07 and I know that is a Gen 2 comparison. This car rev's a bit higher, the gear ratio is fine for the 1/4 mile. If you want to argue about track gearing, that depends on the track, but, this car will run better in the quarter with the 3.55, as a matter of fact, with the 27.6" tire a 3.73 gear is going to be a better choice for the 1/4. Again, this thread is about the 1/4 mile, not track use, therefore, your comparison to the ZR1 is meaningless.
Let me guess, 99% of the negative posts in this thread come from individual that have never had a ten second run, let alone from a stock car the first time at the track. My second guess is that those same individuals have no idea (other then 1000 hp) what it takes to make a ten second run.
I am too disappointed that SRT only added 40hp to the new Viper. However, SRT did give us the perfect platform for a boosted application by using forged components in the new engine. All SRT has to do now is release or make available to the aftermarket the ability to tune these cars. Once that is done, 850-1,000hp will only be a supercharger/twin-turbo kit away.
Don't even have to wait for next year, take a look at this MB at AT THE SAME TRACK the white SRT run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yui_fSj_QTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yui_fSj_QTU
kdaviper
Enthusiast
Why don't you show us the breakdown of costs of developing a certified 750 hp car, amortized over 5 or 6 thousand units? You seem to have this figured out, and obviously know far more than the top engineers at Chrysler who have been doing their jobs for 20+ years. Please show us how it would have been more cost effective to update just the engine and leave the chassis, and interior wanting, so that SRT would cater to "true" viper fans, who apparently only care about power output numbers, and not things like torsional rigidity, proper suspension setup, etc. Maybe SRT should have put the budget for developing all the CFRP panels into the engine program too, since that's the only important thing according to you. actually, I think what you should do is buy the new shelby mustang with 650 HP, because it's got more power, so it must be better right? And I'd also like to know where you get this rumor that the ZR1 will be out next year. We haven't even seen the Z06 yet, you honestly think that we'll see the ZR1 first? I know, I know, let's not let a little thing called logic get in the way of our fun now...
kdaviper
Enthusiast
Another thing: why are all of you comparing one day of running down a track with the best results from multiple years of running down various tracks all over the US in varying conditions, etc?
Not many scientists in these boards, eh?
Not many scientists in these boards, eh?
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
People are rationalizing whatever decisions they have made.
11.1 is screaming for a first run in a preproduction car, no matter what anyone says.
VENOM V
Enthusiast
One of the better posts I've seen in a while. You nailed it.
You just compared twin turbo V8 AMG (stock 556/550 crank) that had a $3500 tune installed which upgraded the power to 669/734 crank 580/640 tire to a stock engineering car naturally aspirated Viper.
For a stock E63 and stock 2013 GT-R comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqCzthEynmM
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Part of the problem is inter generational guilt and conflict. Some members are very loyal to, and have strong feelings for, the generation of Viper that they own. These same owners are less likely to care about costly interiors and other non performance related improvements and may not necessarily perceive the Gen V as a design which is better than the design of the car they already own. They were probably hoping for a large enough increase in performance to have the effect of moving them to their next automotive mistress. I do not see any reason to be hostile to this group. Their thoughts and feelings are understandable. Subject to liability, warranty and other regulatory and cost concerns, if any, the cure for this problem is to sell an off road open code controller through Mopar which would allow modding as desired.
If it is an off road controller with applicable disclaimers, etc., it should be doable. If not, at least respect the faithful enough to state why it is not doable. When we go to the strip and see the Ford and GM supercharged applications with simple mods and custom calibrations produce respectable numbers, it is hard to understand why an off road open code controller would not be offered by MOPAR for the Gen V since it already has forged internals.
If it is an off road controller with applicable disclaimers, etc., it should be doable. If not, at least respect the faithful enough to state why it is not doable. When we go to the strip and see the Ford and GM supercharged applications with simple mods and custom calibrations produce respectable numbers, it is hard to understand why an off road open code controller would not be offered by MOPAR for the Gen V since it already has forged internals.
I could not agree with you more! I think SRT at some point will provide a way to tune these cars so they can be modified. If not then what would be the purpose of the forged internals?
kdaviper
Enthusiast
Most of the hostility I see is from previous Gen owners towards SRT and potential Gen V customers. Most of the complaining and whining is not constructive or proactive in the least bit and may serve to drive down sales of the new snake. The old-gen diehards seem to completely ignore the law of diminishing returns, something the SRT engineers have to look at very closely because of their shoestring budget. For sneaky pete's sake, SRT doesn't even have full-time Staff!
There is no benefit in being hostile or demeaning to the critical group.
Chrysler and the SRT brand are in business to sell cars. If there is a way to address the issue which is possible within budgetary and legal restraints, it would make sense to explore it. My guess is that an open code controller from MOPAR would do that. The SRT people are a Special Ops type group who meet challenges head on and from all available evidence, it looks like they thrive on a good challenge. Chrysler Engineers have a long history of doing so.
It seems to me that if whoever is the person most familiar with the Gen V calibration and controller works with Mr. Winkles and whoever in MOPAR works on and coordinates the production and sale of off road controllers, a relatively small team should be able to produce an open code off road controller that can be used for modding.
Chrysler and the SRT brand are in business to sell cars. If there is a way to address the issue which is possible within budgetary and legal restraints, it would make sense to explore it. My guess is that an open code controller from MOPAR would do that. The SRT people are a Special Ops type group who meet challenges head on and from all available evidence, it looks like they thrive on a good challenge. Chrysler Engineers have a long history of doing so.
It seems to me that if whoever is the person most familiar with the Gen V calibration and controller works with Mr. Winkles and whoever in MOPAR works on and coordinates the production and sale of off road controllers, a relatively small team should be able to produce an open code off road controller that can be used for modding.
kdaviper
Enthusiast
About the Viper's PCM. IIRC, and i'm 90% sure i'm correct on this, All of the encryption to the PCM is done by a third party, SRT doesn't have access to the encryption codes. However, that doesn't mean MOPAR can't make an offroad-only PCM... though it doesn't mean they can either. you'd have to ask their lawyers lol.
that is not going to help your cause. the fact they dont have a full time staff would make them appear rinky dink and like they could not do their job to their full potential. maybe thats why some feel GM is kicking SRT butt. maybe thats why some people dont feel comfortable enough in SRT to plunk down $ ?
Ray W
Enthusiast
Go get a drink and re read my post. I have no problem with all the new goodies on the GEN V. I am saying that if there are people who can afford a new Viper that can tack on an additional 40K worth of options. There are probably a large number of people who would also pay to keep the Viper the most powerfull production car. Wether it really needs 750hp or not. I don't know the cost of certification for such an engine but the development has already been done. If the buyer would have paid the extra money we will never know. We weren't asked.
I don't know where you are coming from on the ZR1. I didn't mention it.
kdaviper
Enthusiast
Now there's a few weasel words: some people feel *** is true, others people feel *** is true. Some people are idiots, and Some people are geniuses. People shouldn't expect SRT to cater to their every need and want all the time. If someone doesn't feel comfortable plunking down the money for an SRT because of its staffing limitations, that's OK. If someone doesn't feel comfortable plunking down the money for an SRT because of inflammatory behavior on these forums, that's different and definitely unacceptable.
The bottom line is, SRT created a car that is ****, unique, and exotic. the new Viper in TA trim will beat the outgoing ACR (and the ZR1) with far less aero and less-specialized tires. That to me is impressive any way you look at it.
The bottom line is, SRT created a car that is ****, unique, and exotic. the new Viper in TA trim will beat the outgoing ACR (and the ZR1) with far less aero and less-specialized tires. That to me is impressive any way you look at it.
Ray W
Enthusiast
It's not one day. These most recent passes were made on Drag Radials on a very well prepped track. Brooks can drive the car well enough to get into the tens if it could have done it.
The times they are actually about what I expected.
kdaviper
Enthusiast
Ok the ZR1 comment was falsely attributed to you and i apologize for that. But you keep bringing up a moot issue: If there wasn't enough money in SRT's engine budget to develop a EPA/CARB-certified 750-hp engine, then there simply wasn't the money to develop it, no matter what future customers would be willing to pay for. And what if they HAD put more resources into the powertrane budget? We might just have the world's most-expensive portable smoke machine and nothing more. Hell, the tires they have now can barely keep the 640 hp under wraps. And btw, who says the development of a 750 hp engine has been done? certainly not any SRT engineer, at least not publicly. Until you provide a source for this, it's just rumor.
"Part of the problem is inter generational guilt and conflict. Some members are very loyal to, and have strong feelings for, the generation of Viper that they own. These same owners are less likely to care about costly interiors and other non performance related improvements and may not necessarily perceive the Gen V as a design which is better than the design of the car they already own. They were probably hoping for a large enough increase in performance to have the effect of moving them to their next automotive mistress. I do not see any reason to be hostile to this group. Their thoughts and feelings are understandable. Subject to liability, warranty and other regulatory and cost concerns, if any, the cure for this problem is to sell an off road open code controller through Mopar which would allow modding as desired.
If it is an off road controller with applicable disclaimers, etc., it should be doable. If not, at least respect the faithful enough to state why it is not doable. When we go to the strip and see the Ford and GM supercharged applications with simple mods and custom calibrations produce respectable numbers, it is hard to understand why an off road open code controller would not be offered by MOPAR for the Gen V since it already has forged internals."
Sort of. Yes, many of us Gen IV owners wanted to stay on top in terms of power and handling. This did not happen with Gen V. We do not mind the more refined car, but this is not worth $70k+ plus taxes for a trade. Further, styling should have looked forward and not just backwards.
Modding the car is not the answer. If you substantially or materially alter the drivetrain and have a drivetrain failure/problem, they your warranty is toast. There are great benefits to having a stout factory warranty. So unlocking the computer code so we can mod the car to get competitive power for which the car was not designed is not the best solution.
Exactly! From the consumer's standpoint, we want the most up-to-date R&D and product that makes sense for the market segment. $130k+ is $130k plus regardless of where you spend it. In the future, this may mean aluminum (C7 Z06, ZR1, Audi R8?) or composite frames, 7 or 8 speed transmissions and/or DCTs, AWD, cylinder deactivation, start-stop, usable cabins, etc. We are all here because we love the Viper and want it to be the King! I have high hopes for the ACR, or in the alternative, a Gen VI. Hats off to those who are purchasing the Gen V because those purchases will make other improvements/gens possible.
If it is an off road controller with applicable disclaimers, etc., it should be doable. If not, at least respect the faithful enough to state why it is not doable. When we go to the strip and see the Ford and GM supercharged applications with simple mods and custom calibrations produce respectable numbers, it is hard to understand why an off road open code controller would not be offered by MOPAR for the Gen V since it already has forged internals."
Sort of. Yes, many of us Gen IV owners wanted to stay on top in terms of power and handling. This did not happen with Gen V. We do not mind the more refined car, but this is not worth $70k+ plus taxes for a trade. Further, styling should have looked forward and not just backwards.
Modding the car is not the answer. If you substantially or materially alter the drivetrain and have a drivetrain failure/problem, they your warranty is toast. There are great benefits to having a stout factory warranty. So unlocking the computer code so we can mod the car to get competitive power for which the car was not designed is not the best solution.
Exactly! From the consumer's standpoint, we want the most up-to-date R&D and product that makes sense for the market segment. $130k+ is $130k plus regardless of where you spend it. In the future, this may mean aluminum (C7 Z06, ZR1, Audi R8?) or composite frames, 7 or 8 speed transmissions and/or DCTs, AWD, cylinder deactivation, start-stop, usable cabins, etc. We are all here because we love the Viper and want it to be the King! I have high hopes for the ACR, or in the alternative, a Gen VI. Hats off to those who are purchasing the Gen V because those purchases will make other improvements/gens possible.
I think you are missing the point that SRT has publicly stated that they created the Gen V engine with forged internals to allow people to mod with boost. If someone cannot afford the extra exposure ( this is in reference to your warranty comment) of modding an engine which was designed to be modded, then they cannot afford a more costly Viper to begin with. That group is better off buying an earlier generation and modding it while setting aside some funds for any necessary repairs later. Historically, the forged piston Viper motors have been very robust. The Gen IIIs have also proven to be very robust even though they do not have forged pistons. There are more than 150 running around with boost on them and I do not think that I have read one post over the last ten years where an engine that was calibrated within a reasonabe A/F ratio had a problem. Because of the complexity of the Venom programming and the fact that the controller code has not been cracked on the Gen IV controller to my knowledge, there is little or no data available on the durability of the stock Gen IV engine with boost.
Lastly, when you mod, your warranty is only altered to the extent that the modification resulted in the problem. There are many items covered by the warranty that are not at all affected by a drivetrain modification. The key is having the mods done in a balanced and reasonable way by an entity with staying power which has techs with extensive experience who do not push the envelope too far. There should always be a buffer/safety zone.
Lastly, when you mod, your warranty is only altered to the extent that the modification resulted in the problem. There are many items covered by the warranty that are not at all affected by a drivetrain modification. The key is having the mods done in a balanced and reasonable way by an entity with staying power which has techs with extensive experience who do not push the envelope too far. There should always be a buffer/safety zone.
VENOM V
Enthusiast
This may be an off-shoot to this discussion, but I learned a lot at last week at Ron Fellows ZR1 school at Spring Mountain.
When driving near one of the more experienced and skilled drivers in my class, I had a ZR1 and he had a Z06. There were sections of the track that I was a little better, and others that he was a little better. It felt like a pretty even race. But when he got put into a Grand Sport and I stayed in the ZR1, I was significantly faster. To me, this reinforced the point that we are reaching the point of diminishing returns on horsepower, at least on a road course. The ZR1 had 133 more HP than the Z06, but lap times were similar. The Grand Sport didn't stand a chance against either the Z06 or ZR1, the extra weight and lack of power showed. So I don't see the need for 750HP+ in a Viper on the road course, 640HP is plenty.
I picked the brain of the lead instructor about carbon ceramic brakes Vs. steel. He is a huge fan of the carbon ceramic brakes. The school's ZR1s have them, but the Z06s and Grand Sports have steel disks. He said that the pads last for about 6,000 miles on the ZR1s (he was guessing), but the pads for the steel braked Corvettes wore out much quicker. He said with a driver that's heavy on the steel brakes, someone that's turning decently fast times but isn't very smooth, the pads may only last a weekend. Another big advantage of the carbon ceramic brake's pads: they give very consistent stopping torque, hot or cold, on the street or track. You don't need a track pad and a street pad, like you do on steel disks. They don't fade. They just work well, all the time. They don't squeak or have low torque when cold, like steel brakes' track pads. They've never damaged a carbon rotor in the school. They had one rotor that was knicked by the dealer when the ZR1 was new, because the tech wasn't careful when removing/replacing the wheel. He didn't see a downside to the carbon ceramic, other than the initial cost. I would rather have SRT put some R&D dollars into a carbon ceramic brake option rather than engine development, seems like a no-brainer. The option would be costly, but that is one I would pay for.
He's also not a fan of forced induction, especially superchargers for the road course. Good drivers do need to let the ZR1 cool after a few laps, not so with the Z06. So this confirmed my opinion that SRT did the right thing with a big-cube normally aspirated engine.
This is my perspective as road courses are my priority. I understand HP is more important for straight line. I've done a few passes in the high 8's in the quarter, but now my passion is the twisties. And for that, the Gen V has clearly scored a bulls-eye. And we haven't seen the last of the Gen V development, I can't wait to see what's in store for the ACR.
When driving near one of the more experienced and skilled drivers in my class, I had a ZR1 and he had a Z06. There were sections of the track that I was a little better, and others that he was a little better. It felt like a pretty even race. But when he got put into a Grand Sport and I stayed in the ZR1, I was significantly faster. To me, this reinforced the point that we are reaching the point of diminishing returns on horsepower, at least on a road course. The ZR1 had 133 more HP than the Z06, but lap times were similar. The Grand Sport didn't stand a chance against either the Z06 or ZR1, the extra weight and lack of power showed. So I don't see the need for 750HP+ in a Viper on the road course, 640HP is plenty.
I picked the brain of the lead instructor about carbon ceramic brakes Vs. steel. He is a huge fan of the carbon ceramic brakes. The school's ZR1s have them, but the Z06s and Grand Sports have steel disks. He said that the pads last for about 6,000 miles on the ZR1s (he was guessing), but the pads for the steel braked Corvettes wore out much quicker. He said with a driver that's heavy on the steel brakes, someone that's turning decently fast times but isn't very smooth, the pads may only last a weekend. Another big advantage of the carbon ceramic brake's pads: they give very consistent stopping torque, hot or cold, on the street or track. You don't need a track pad and a street pad, like you do on steel disks. They don't fade. They just work well, all the time. They don't squeak or have low torque when cold, like steel brakes' track pads. They've never damaged a carbon rotor in the school. They had one rotor that was knicked by the dealer when the ZR1 was new, because the tech wasn't careful when removing/replacing the wheel. He didn't see a downside to the carbon ceramic, other than the initial cost. I would rather have SRT put some R&D dollars into a carbon ceramic brake option rather than engine development, seems like a no-brainer. The option would be costly, but that is one I would pay for.
He's also not a fan of forced induction, especially superchargers for the road course. Good drivers do need to let the ZR1 cool after a few laps, not so with the Z06. So this confirmed my opinion that SRT did the right thing with a big-cube normally aspirated engine.
This is my perspective as road courses are my priority. I understand HP is more important for straight line. I've done a few passes in the high 8's in the quarter, but now my passion is the twisties. And for that, the Gen V has clearly scored a bulls-eye. And we haven't seen the last of the Gen V development, I can't wait to see what's in store for the ACR.
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mnc2886
Enthusiast
First of all, I am trying to be constructive with my criticisms on this board. Believe me, I am a huge Viper fan, but I was participating in what I felt to be constructive criticism. I think foremost that the Gen V isn't complete and it will have changes over the years with big impact each time. Right, wrong, or indifferent, in my opinion I thought constructive criticism will benefit the Viper in the long run. I am in no way intending to be negative and I don't think for the money there is a better car available. I simply felt that SRT missed on a few things and missed big on a couple. I'm not one that feels we need a horsepower number that needs a comma to write, but I do feel we should have the best platform.
So lets focus on your reaction. First you say "you are wrong again." This is a nonsensical statement since we didn't have posts that highlight the first "wrong-doing." It really only served to make your point bigger, or somehow more valid. Secondly, I never mentioned tire sizes. Only you brought them into the conversation to make a point that I didn't make to have your point be correct. Again, nonsensical, or "constructive" since we are on the subject. Third of all, the comment about the ZR1 is absolutely valid considering we lost to one 0-150 by 1 second (which is a long time, especially considering vehicles that are basically identical on paper) Lastly, I simply pointed out, as did the real-world results, that the SRT didn't perform in a straight line like it should have. Back to my point, I think the platform is almost there, but in my opinion, which you partially supported, the gearing could be improved. We have a great frame, a reliable and powerful engine, lightweight construction, but you can't tell me that SRT couldn't have done better in some aspects. Even taking consideration of the budget and time, there were somethings that just didn't make sense. Again, simply my humble opinion and I just got tired of all the excuses every time something happened just like some are rightfully tired of ********.
So lets continue being constructive and the Viper will continue to improve. Don't tout me as someone with no drag race or mechanical experience with drag racing because you'd be dead wrong. I will say this too, 98-02 Camaro's and Trans Am's that could put down 580-590 to the wheels were making 10 second passes all day long. So guess what? People expected a 10 second pass, especially with drag radials and who appears to be a great driver.
Rant over...
I am aware of the Federal Magnuson-Moss Act and I did not miss any points. Mod away if you like. I have modded to replace entire engines in the past (a C5R aluminum Block 427 added to a C5 Z06 for example) and do not care to do so in the future. Maintenance, etc. is less accesable, etc. I prefer a stout warranty and OEM power that was considered in the OEM design of the vehicle. FYI, I could also pay cash for a Gen V if I liked to replace my existing Gen IV. Instead, I prefer to wait for a car I want to purchase. Each to his or her own, and I certaintly respect your right to modify a Gen V, or any other vehicle.
My post was not addressed to you in particular. But you do have an easy solution, use the cash to buy a McClaren.
With regards to the maintainence, it depends. My Viper, Challenger and Jeep were all modded by Chrysler dealers. They are all maintained by a dealer. Maintainence is not only accessible, it is always fun going there and shooting the breeze with a group of people who are as passionate about cars as I am.
With regards to the maintainence, it depends. My Viper, Challenger and Jeep were all modded by Chrysler dealers. They are all maintained by a dealer. Maintainence is not only accessible, it is always fun going there and shooting the breeze with a group of people who are as passionate about cars as I am.
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