Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
So sad, tis the risk of racing. If there is any consolation it's that they were doing something together that they loved
2 people die in Viper in Audi Uphill race
- Thread starter Craig 201 MPH
- Start date
VPRVENM97
Enthusiast
Sad news. It was the Annual Virginia City Hill Climb. Here's the article.
Two Killed in Racing Crash
Sat Jun 15, 9:11 PM ET
VIRGINIA CITY, Nev. (AP) - A race-car driver and his passenger were killed in a crash Saturday during a time-trial competition on a Nevada highway.
Storey County sheriff's deputies said driver Patrick Michael Jemison, 42, of Incline Village, and passenger Virginia Lynn Davis, 43, of Show Low, Ariz., were pronounced dead at the scene.
Deputy John Tyson said the accident occurred on Nevada Route 341 during a time-trial run of the Audi Car Club Hill Climb Race.
A preliminary investigation shows the driver went into a curve too fast and lost control of his Dodge Viper. The vehicle slid off the roadway and fell about 250 feet down a ravine.
The race course on Route 341 stretches for about 7 miles between Virginia City and Silver City.
The event is sanctioned by the Nevada Department of Transportation.
Two Killed in Racing Crash
Sat Jun 15, 9:11 PM ET
VIRGINIA CITY, Nev. (AP) - A race-car driver and his passenger were killed in a crash Saturday during a time-trial competition on a Nevada highway.
Storey County sheriff's deputies said driver Patrick Michael Jemison, 42, of Incline Village, and passenger Virginia Lynn Davis, 43, of Show Low, Ariz., were pronounced dead at the scene.
Deputy John Tyson said the accident occurred on Nevada Route 341 during a time-trial run of the Audi Car Club Hill Climb Race.
A preliminary investigation shows the driver went into a curve too fast and lost control of his Dodge Viper. The vehicle slid off the roadway and fell about 250 feet down a ravine.
The race course on Route 341 stretches for about 7 miles between Virginia City and Silver City.
The event is sanctioned by the Nevada Department of Transportation.
TacDoc
Enthusiast
"The event is sanctioned by the Nevada Department of Transportation."
I hate it when a paper publishes a line like that. Those of us who do high speed events realize the risk, and accept the responsibility. Dont gig the DOT for giving us opportunities (and the activists ammunition).
I hate it when a paper publishes a line like that. Those of us who do high speed events realize the risk, and accept the responsibility. Dont gig the DOT for giving us opportunities (and the activists ammunition).
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacDoc:
[BI hate it when a paper publishes a line like that. Those of us who do high speed events realize the risk, and accept the responsibility. Dont gig the DOT for giving us opportunities (and the activists ammunition).
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Admittedly its extremely sad and no one ever enjoys anothers misfortune. I believe they were adults and doing what they enjoyed.
However, I agree 100%. I think the word "sanctioned" is misused in this case. I believe "allowed" or "permitted" but to say sanctioned means they were endorsing or even advertising for public use.
We all know the risk and don't need anyone other than ourselves saving us from ourself.
Activists - Go save a whale!
[BI hate it when a paper publishes a line like that. Those of us who do high speed events realize the risk, and accept the responsibility. Dont gig the DOT for giving us opportunities (and the activists ammunition).
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Admittedly its extremely sad and no one ever enjoys anothers misfortune. I believe they were adults and doing what they enjoyed.
However, I agree 100%. I think the word "sanctioned" is misused in this case. I believe "allowed" or "permitted" but to say sanctioned means they were endorsing or even advertising for public use.
We all know the risk and don't need anyone other than ourselves saving us from ourself.
Activists - Go save a whale!
ViperGTS,
That is ridicoulous that they may not continue the racing, did they not think a fatal car accident was ever possible, they can not be that nieve. Everyone knows and knew the risks involved and now because people were killed the media has to boast and build up criticism against the DOT. That is really wrong and unfortunetely it will never change.
That is ridicoulous that they may not continue the racing, did they not think a fatal car accident was ever possible, they can not be that nieve. Everyone knows and knew the risks involved and now because people were killed the media has to boast and build up criticism against the DOT. That is really wrong and unfortunetely it will never change.
VPRVENM97
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacDoc:
"The event is sanctioned by the Nevada Department of Transportation."
I hate it when a paper publishes a line like that. Those of us who do high speed events realize the risk, and accept the responsibility. Dont gig the DOT for giving us opportunities (and the activists ammunition).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Typical media twist...Make an issue where an issue doesn't exist. I certainly hope they don't cancel the event just because of an isolated incident. Couldn't make it this year but I was planning on going next year. Condolences to the families of the victims.
"The event is sanctioned by the Nevada Department of Transportation."
I hate it when a paper publishes a line like that. Those of us who do high speed events realize the risk, and accept the responsibility. Dont gig the DOT for giving us opportunities (and the activists ammunition).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Typical media twist...Make an issue where an issue doesn't exist. I certainly hope they don't cancel the event just because of an isolated incident. Couldn't make it this year but I was planning on going next year. Condolences to the families of the victims.
"Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games."
-- Ernest Hemingway
The only three sports left where the competitor has a real chance of being killed. Its the risk we take though it always hurts to see colleges fall. May they rest in peace, I hope we all go doing something we love.
-- Ernest Hemingway
The only three sports left where the competitor has a real chance of being killed. Its the risk we take though it always hurts to see colleges fall. May they rest in peace, I hope we all go doing something we love.
joe117
Enthusiast
That sounds like a very unforgiving race course. Real race tracks don't have that kind of off the track hazard. If there were a real race track with a possibility of a 250 ft fall, I think it would be shut down. I'm all for letting people do what they want and I'm all for personal responsibility but this sounds a little over the top as far as hazards go. I say let folks continue to race there if they want. I also say fix the course to preclude the possibility of this sort of thing.
ViperGTS
Enthusiast
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How many people die in car crashs every year in the USA?
22,000?
Stop driving would be the consequence! If some press could rule.
Condolences to the family.
22,000?
Stop driving would be the consequence! If some press could rule.
Condolences to the family.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkusReinhardt:
How many people die in car crashs every year in the USA?22,000?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More like 50-60,000.
Joe - It was probably a road/rally race and they just plowed through the guard rail. A good endurance race can't be held on a two mile oval.
How many people die in car crashs every year in the USA?22,000?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More like 50-60,000.
Joe - It was probably a road/rally race and they just plowed through the guard rail. A good endurance race can't be held on a two mile oval.
Toby
Enthusiast
But what about the death of all the trees and shrubs as a result of the car going off course? Tree huggers unite...NO MORE CARS!
On a serious note:
Now if their were mistakes made by whoever ran the race like poor driver meetings or poorly educated drivers on the course etc etc..then shame on whoever ran the race. Sometimes deaths occur as a result of a poorly planned events and not just the driver or car.
On a serious note:
Now if their were mistakes made by whoever ran the race like poor driver meetings or poorly educated drivers on the course etc etc..then shame on whoever ran the race. Sometimes deaths occur as a result of a poorly planned events and not just the driver or car.
MtHam ACR
Enthusiast
Having run the Hill Climb (albeit with the Ferrari/Shelby Clubs) stressing safety is the a very high priority with the organizers. This, unfortuanately, was driver error.
And it's clear there were two lapses in judgement that day, one in driving over your head and another in deciding to take a passenger. Condolences to both families. Sad.
And it's clear there were two lapses in judgement that day, one in driving over your head and another in deciding to take a passenger. Condolences to both families. Sad.
joe117
Enthusiast
If they plowed through a guardrail then that's a whole different thing. However, a club type event that allows a relatively minor slide or spin to result in a 250 foot drop is just poor planning. Like I said, I'm for letting people do what they want. I'm a car guy and I like the idea of speed events. The general public isn't going to see it the way the race car people see it. I would be very surprised to see this event continue without some safety improvements to the course. All the macho race car driver stuff aside, people who make a small mistake shouldn't have this kind of thing happen to them in a club type event. Of course, I don't have all the facts. If they did something so crazy that nobody could have predicted it, well **** happens. Too bad.
silverviper
Enthusiast
Ok, maybe I can help clear it up a bit. I was one of approx. eight vipers and 60-70 total cars competing in the Virginia City Hill Climb (NV) this weekend. The event is 5.2 miles up a very windy mountain road. It is dangerous, but it is also extremely fun. Everyone participating understands the risk and chooses to enjoy the thrill.
The car was an RT/10 that went out in one of the first runs of its group. No roll bar, cold tires, probably a bit rusty or unfamiliar with the many curves. Probably just got a bit hot when a more gradual warmup run might have been better. No one will know exactly what happened given the distance of viewing from the incident.
The remainder of the day's driving was shut down for investigation and recovery. On Sunday we continued the event and with safety always in mind, very much enjoyed it.
I personally think there is risk in ALL driving, and if there is a little more in fun driving, well it is understood and accepted.
It was very sad what happened and I wish the families well, but even they requested that we continue the event.
The car was an RT/10 that went out in one of the first runs of its group. No roll bar, cold tires, probably a bit rusty or unfamiliar with the many curves. Probably just got a bit hot when a more gradual warmup run might have been better. No one will know exactly what happened given the distance of viewing from the incident.
The remainder of the day's driving was shut down for investigation and recovery. On Sunday we continued the event and with safety always in mind, very much enjoyed it.
I personally think there is risk in ALL driving, and if there is a little more in fun driving, well it is understood and accepted.
It was very sad what happened and I wish the families well, but even they requested that we continue the event.
pdmracing
Enthusiast
Competitive driving without proper safety equipment is stupid. This is an example of why SCCA santioned solo 1 events require roll bars & cages. Not that I wouldnt have given it a go......I guess I'm stupid.
silverviper
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [email protected]:
Competitive driving without proper safety equipment is stupid. This is an example of why SCCA santioned solo 1 events require roll bars & cages. Not that I wouldnt have given it a go......I guess I'm stupid.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, proper safety equipment is key. I also think it should be the responsibility of each driver, not just the organizers.
Also, this is as uncompetitive an event as you can have. No times were given all weekend. Each driver's meeting emphasized safety, fun, and respect for the local residents. Every communication encouraged safety and driving within your limits.
The event had a huge variety of cars, from full racers to pure street cars, exotics and american iron, and even a token type-R. It would not be nearly as interesting with a spec requirement.
I believe the driver was an experienced autocrosser, but you have to recognize the difference between spinning into a cone and spinning into a ravine. Each driver assessed the risk and made their choice of safety equipment and level of aggression in driving. That should remain their responsibility.
Competitive driving without proper safety equipment is stupid. This is an example of why SCCA santioned solo 1 events require roll bars & cages. Not that I wouldnt have given it a go......I guess I'm stupid.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, proper safety equipment is key. I also think it should be the responsibility of each driver, not just the organizers.
Also, this is as uncompetitive an event as you can have. No times were given all weekend. Each driver's meeting emphasized safety, fun, and respect for the local residents. Every communication encouraged safety and driving within your limits.
The event had a huge variety of cars, from full racers to pure street cars, exotics and american iron, and even a token type-R. It would not be nearly as interesting with a spec requirement.
I believe the driver was an experienced autocrosser, but you have to recognize the difference between spinning into a cone and spinning into a ravine. Each driver assessed the risk and made their choice of safety equipment and level of aggression in driving. That should remain their responsibility.
RobHook
Enthusiast
Well, now that the "saftey equipment is important" point has come up, is there really ANY safety equipment short of a parachute that would have helped them in a 250 foot drop into a ravine?
Let's be honest, yes the Viper (especially the RT/10) is considerably more dangerous than many of the cars out there. But in this situation they could've been in an M1 tank and they still would've been doomed.
The real question is should an amateur (even an experienced autocrosser) have been racing on a course where it's possible to do something like that? We don't have all the facts but if he just totally overcooked it and went 80 feet off the track before hitting the ravine then there's not much anyone could have done. At that point it's just as likely that they could have been killed by a semi on the way home from the race. It just wouldn't have been news worthy.
Our sincerest thoughts and prayers to the families.
--Rob
Let's be honest, yes the Viper (especially the RT/10) is considerably more dangerous than many of the cars out there. But in this situation they could've been in an M1 tank and they still would've been doomed.
The real question is should an amateur (even an experienced autocrosser) have been racing on a course where it's possible to do something like that? We don't have all the facts but if he just totally overcooked it and went 80 feet off the track before hitting the ravine then there's not much anyone could have done. At that point it's just as likely that they could have been killed by a semi on the way home from the race. It just wouldn't have been news worthy.
Our sincerest thoughts and prayers to the families.
--Rob
F40? This event sounds like something I would try to enter. Is there any MPEGs of it anywhere?
TacDoc
Enthusiast
joe117
"I'm all for personal responsibility but this sounds a little over the top as far as hazards go"
I agree, anything with this level of known hazard should be banned, now for alcohol and tobacco. yeah right.
"I'm all for personal responsibility but this sounds a little over the top as far as hazards go"
I agree, anything with this level of known hazard should be banned, now for alcohol and tobacco. yeah right.
joe117
Enthusiast
I don't want to ban it. I just think that a club event for street cars shouldn't have this kind of hazard. If that's what they want I wouldn't want to stop them. I just think it shouldn't be that way. Jeez, you spin or slide and you drop 250 feet? That's a serious outcome for a small mistake in a club hill climb. I don't want it to be banned. I don't care if they run cars up and down the hill at the same time. It's just not my idea of a sane situation for amateur drivers with who knows how much skill. And letting them take a passenger, what's that all about? Can they bring the kids too?
WCKDVPR
Viper Owner
First off my sincere regards to the family and friends of Patrick and Virginia whom we lost this past weekend.
Secondly, it really annoys me there are a number of you who feel you need to pass judgement on this without having a flaming clue about this event or what happened. Thank you Silver Viper for your informed perspective!
Here is my "I was there" view and some info on the unofficial results. This was my third year running the Virginia City Hill Climb. It is the one event I look forward to all year long (I also run Viper Days, open tracks, autocrosses, etc). It is extremely fun and a great group of people to hang out with. The hardware is pretty incredible for the serious motorheads.
The staff places the utmost priority on safety and driving within yourself. The Safety requirements are the same as for Viper Days. Here is the first portion of driver requirements from the entrance form: "This is NOT a Driver Education event. You must have solo experience at road course track, or hill climb type events. If you can drive within your own and your car's limits 100% of the time, then you should enjoy this event." This is expressed to every driver by the starter before they leave the starting line, every run.
Everyone who runs at this event is well aware of the risks. The road is in perfect condition and there are a multitude of corner workers and safety personnel. Yes, there are certain places on the road that are unforgiving (not unlike many pro rally courses, pike's peak hill climb, etc). Given the fact that it is a 35 mph mountain road in a fairly unpopulated area, there are only guard rails on the tight corners. The larger sweepers have no guard rails as this should not be an issue at normal speed. In most places, even if you exit on the ravine side, you would go down a 25 or 30 degree slope. Sadly, where this car left the track, was probably the steepest portion of the ravine and a faster corner where there were no guard rails. The car went off at the exit of turn 16 apparently trying to correct a slide initiated in turn 16 (from witness accounts and inspection of the skid marks). I don't believe we will ever know if it was mechanical or driver error.
However, it is up to the driver to run within their own and their cars limits. This event has been running on the same road for 31 years, I believe the last fatality was in 1977. A pretty admirable safety record well discussed by Silver Viper.
Here is a link to the Audi VCHC site with track map, etc. http://www.vchillclimb.org They hope to have the official results up some time today.
As for the "unofficial" results (keep in mind it is 5.2 miles, starting at 5000 feet with a 1200 foot vertical climb on a 35 mph road):
1st: Amir Rosenbaum, Ferrari F40, 3:10.***, average speed 98.5 mph. New overall record (old record, Steve Beddor, RUF CTR 2, 3:12.067)
2nd: Mike Horzewski, Viper GTS, 3:15.1xx, average speed 96.0 mph. Naturally aspirated record (old record, Ori Rosenbaum, Viper GTS, 3:18.706)
3rd: Ted May, Viper GTS, 3:21.9xx, average speed 92.7 mph
4th: Steve Beddor, RUF CTR 2, 3:22.*** (previous record holder, had a tough weekend).
For some great pics of last years event see: http://www.nsxfiles.com/stories.htm
On the left side, go to Chapter 70 2001 Virginia City Hill Climb
I will try to come up with a video or some other pics over the next few days.
Finally, please don't stop people from doing what they love because it is just not right for you or you are not willing to accept a certain level of risk that others are willing to accept (as long as it is legal, etc).
Best regards,
Secondly, it really annoys me there are a number of you who feel you need to pass judgement on this without having a flaming clue about this event or what happened. Thank you Silver Viper for your informed perspective!
Here is my "I was there" view and some info on the unofficial results. This was my third year running the Virginia City Hill Climb. It is the one event I look forward to all year long (I also run Viper Days, open tracks, autocrosses, etc). It is extremely fun and a great group of people to hang out with. The hardware is pretty incredible for the serious motorheads.
The staff places the utmost priority on safety and driving within yourself. The Safety requirements are the same as for Viper Days. Here is the first portion of driver requirements from the entrance form: "This is NOT a Driver Education event. You must have solo experience at road course track, or hill climb type events. If you can drive within your own and your car's limits 100% of the time, then you should enjoy this event." This is expressed to every driver by the starter before they leave the starting line, every run.
Everyone who runs at this event is well aware of the risks. The road is in perfect condition and there are a multitude of corner workers and safety personnel. Yes, there are certain places on the road that are unforgiving (not unlike many pro rally courses, pike's peak hill climb, etc). Given the fact that it is a 35 mph mountain road in a fairly unpopulated area, there are only guard rails on the tight corners. The larger sweepers have no guard rails as this should not be an issue at normal speed. In most places, even if you exit on the ravine side, you would go down a 25 or 30 degree slope. Sadly, where this car left the track, was probably the steepest portion of the ravine and a faster corner where there were no guard rails. The car went off at the exit of turn 16 apparently trying to correct a slide initiated in turn 16 (from witness accounts and inspection of the skid marks). I don't believe we will ever know if it was mechanical or driver error.
However, it is up to the driver to run within their own and their cars limits. This event has been running on the same road for 31 years, I believe the last fatality was in 1977. A pretty admirable safety record well discussed by Silver Viper.
Here is a link to the Audi VCHC site with track map, etc. http://www.vchillclimb.org They hope to have the official results up some time today.
As for the "unofficial" results (keep in mind it is 5.2 miles, starting at 5000 feet with a 1200 foot vertical climb on a 35 mph road):
1st: Amir Rosenbaum, Ferrari F40, 3:10.***, average speed 98.5 mph. New overall record (old record, Steve Beddor, RUF CTR 2, 3:12.067)
2nd: Mike Horzewski, Viper GTS, 3:15.1xx, average speed 96.0 mph. Naturally aspirated record (old record, Ori Rosenbaum, Viper GTS, 3:18.706)
3rd: Ted May, Viper GTS, 3:21.9xx, average speed 92.7 mph
4th: Steve Beddor, RUF CTR 2, 3:22.*** (previous record holder, had a tough weekend).
For some great pics of last years event see: http://www.nsxfiles.com/stories.htm
On the left side, go to Chapter 70 2001 Virginia City Hill Climb
I will try to come up with a video or some other pics over the next few days.
Finally, please don't stop people from doing what they love because it is just not right for you or you are not willing to accept a certain level of risk that others are willing to accept (as long as it is legal, etc).
Best regards,
jrkermode
Enthusiast
There is a great deal of speculation and misinformation being posted about this event.
I worked corner 2A on Saturday and, having a radio, heard all of the radio traffic between the course workers and event staff as they responded to the incident. I worked corner 16 (where the car went off) all day Sunday and had a chance to thoroughly inspect the site. Finally, I spoke with the worker from corner 16 who witnessed the accident.
Other than the obvious, the car left the road, I still don't know what happened.
I find it very inappropriate for those who are even less informed to pass judgement on the car, driver, passenger, course, event staff, etc...
I worked corner 2A on Saturday and, having a radio, heard all of the radio traffic between the course workers and event staff as they responded to the incident. I worked corner 16 (where the car went off) all day Sunday and had a chance to thoroughly inspect the site. Finally, I spoke with the worker from corner 16 who witnessed the accident.
Other than the obvious, the car left the road, I still don't know what happened.
I find it very inappropriate for those who are even less informed to pass judgement on the car, driver, passenger, course, event staff, etc...
silverviper
Enthusiast
Kids are not allowed as passengers. Adult passengers are required to sign a waiver of liability which very clearly indicates the risks. I'm not sure how they could remove these hazards from the course...fill in the canyons? A guard rail might help, but might not. Who would pay for it?
This event is in it's 31st year, sponsored by the Audi club. The Ferrari club runs the same course in the fall each year.
Take 30 years, twice per year, average 50 cars per event, average 12 runs per entrant, average 1.2 people per car, you have a low estimate of 43,200 people up the hill and 3 fatalities. Approx. 1 in 14,400 odds. I am willing to accept that risk in motorsports, and obviously so are a lot of others.
I guess I'm still going to defend the right of people to take personal risks in pursuit of happiness. Yes, autocrossing in a parking lot with a roll cage is safer. Yes, amateur drivers can make mistakes. Yes, everyone wants to mitigate the risk. Yes, I still believe the event is worth doing and makes me appreciate my life and motorsport adventures even more.
To answer the other questions, Amir's F40 was there, didn't hear the results. My other favorite cars were a RUF CTR-2, a Ferrari 348, a Ferrari 360, a Sunbeam Tiger, and of course all the Vipers.
There are pictures and stories of past events on the Pulp Racing website. I'll see if I can't round up some decent pictures from my wife's digital camera and share them.
This event is in it's 31st year, sponsored by the Audi club. The Ferrari club runs the same course in the fall each year.
Take 30 years, twice per year, average 50 cars per event, average 12 runs per entrant, average 1.2 people per car, you have a low estimate of 43,200 people up the hill and 3 fatalities. Approx. 1 in 14,400 odds. I am willing to accept that risk in motorsports, and obviously so are a lot of others.
I guess I'm still going to defend the right of people to take personal risks in pursuit of happiness. Yes, autocrossing in a parking lot with a roll cage is safer. Yes, amateur drivers can make mistakes. Yes, everyone wants to mitigate the risk. Yes, I still believe the event is worth doing and makes me appreciate my life and motorsport adventures even more.
To answer the other questions, Amir's F40 was there, didn't hear the results. My other favorite cars were a RUF CTR-2, a Ferrari 348, a Ferrari 360, a Sunbeam Tiger, and of course all the Vipers.
There are pictures and stories of past events on the Pulp Racing website. I'll see if I can't round up some decent pictures from my wife's digital camera and share them.
silverviper
Enthusiast
Fast car, slow driver....
After seeing that Satillite Pic(s) of the course I got a major chubby. Why can't roads like that exist here on the east coast?? Huh? WHY???? I wish DE had just ONE hill... even a little hill... heII anything bigger than an overpass would be fine...
jeffdai
Enthusiast
And lets be honest, we could get killed at anytime from slipping in the shower. I am just glad there are events out there that lets you be free to race and take your own responsibility, without 1000 regulations. If i personally ever get killed, i am happy knowing i am getting killed by living and not being scared of everything and sitting home on the living room couch. Lets just hope this does not change the race in any way, i am sure the people involved in the wreck and the family would want it that way also.
MtHam ACR
Enthusiast
WCKDVPR wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here is my "I was there" view . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mike:
1. Great summary and perspective. These guys talking about banning this event or changing it for safety sake really have no clue what it's about.
2. Congratulations on your your time -- absolutely awesome.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here is my "I was there" view . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mike:
1. Great summary and perspective. These guys talking about banning this event or changing it for safety sake really have no clue what it's about.
2. Congratulations on your your time -- absolutely awesome.
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