2008 HP to beat Z06 ?

[Vipermann]

I've read all this stuff about how the 2008 Viper needs 625+ HP to compete with the Z06 ... I say '[******]'

600HP + 3.33 gears & quaife readend + a valvetrain that goes to 6500 rpms, and the car will be there ... end of story.

 

[CCHH]

aaaa....Maaayyyybeee not. You may want to take a look at this.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/22/another-round-of-corvette-blue-devil-rumors

The Viper is a GREAT car as it is...Does it really matter if it has THE best performance? Once you reach a certain level...all of the cars are Great.

 

[nazology]

Regardless of what kind of horsepower the car puts out, they need to lower the weight, and I've seen some guys with Z06s mod it and have the rear end go, not to mention the transmission and the diff blowing on my car previously. We cant sit around here and pretend having them put a 650 HP car together is as easy as it sounds, if they are gonna do it and charge over 100K for it, it better be done right.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

This battle is all coming down to physics now.



2005 Silver SRT/10
2000 Steel Gray GTS (sold)

 

[bigerc]

I've read all this stuff about how the 2008 Viper needs 625+ HP to compete with the Z06 ... I say '[******]'

600HP + 3.33 gears & quaife readend + a valvetrain that goes to 6500 rpms, and the car will be there ... end of story.

I think your right about the gear ratio and quaife. Plus get real tires and not run craps. People just say up the hp too quickly. Sure I hope the 08 has 600-650 hp but there are other changes that need to be considered as well.

 

[sween]

08 viper will beat the z06 with no doubt. From the storys here, a regular gen 3 can beat a new z06 with just a really good driver. The question should be will the new viper beat the bluedevil.

 

[DocAdam]

A regular gen III will beat the Z06 with just a new set of wheels and tires.

DC needs to lose the run craps.

 

[V10 ICBM]

I think we all need to tak a deep breadth a define the comparisons from our comfy barcoloungers - on a track (meaning turns) - think the existing SRT got the brakes nailed. Only they have to work 400lbs more than the Z06 so after 2-3 laps I am guessing heat will raise its head. As for the Zo6, the f-ed up and they need to be replaced before the smart -*** GM engineer who thought that its buyers were too stupid to realize that C-6R use the right brake pad config since it "HAS BEEN TESTED" at a track - mant rumoours and actual complaints to me that the brakes need replacing - $5000USD (eg StopTechs).

As for the frame not fixing, well, not sure if you know any one who has shunted a GTS or SRT but they do in fact damage easily - sure can be fixed, but any tap causes A-arms to bend the frame - so not sure I trust anything after that. In case, I would vote steel frames for the simple reason it is fixable AND steel is just, well, tough sh-it and doesn't fail like Al.

Engine....sorry - that GM motor is strong and light - will now get stronger.

Tranny - think we are par as I believe they are related?

Overall performance...on a track...not sure about durability as I see so few out but because they have stab mgt I cannot tell how hard they are being driven and with what skill as they have a safety blanket (Like Linus) - the are blofddy strong.

In any case, one thing that will really make a difference is time out of power, shifting. In the next 2-3 years the new Porshes will have the DCG (Dual Clutch Gearbox) so shifting no longer requires a gear change but just a tap and seriously less time off throttle. That will make any car having this SECONDS faster.

So...where is DC? A 100-150 hp increase will not solve these pressures.

 

[bigmike32172]

not too sure what to make of that new hood design on the vette. kinda looks like whoever designed it was out looking at jacuzzi tubs the weekend prior! LMAO!

 

[Vipermann]

aaaa....Maaayyyybeee not. You may want to take a look at this.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/22/another-round-of-corvette-blue-devil-rumors

The 'base' 2008 Viper (roadster) won't have to beat the $100K 'blue devil' ... there will always be room for a higher-performance track version of whatever the '08 Viper turns out to be.

 

[Racer Robbie]

V10, ICBM.........You are right on the mark! Shed 300-400 lbs and install paddle shifters and no one will touch our Vipers.

 

[Warfang]

V10, ICBM.........You are right on the mark! Shed 300-400 lbs and install paddle shifters and no one will touch our Vipers.

I, for one, won't touch it either.

Let's add a fridge in the glove box while we're at it.

 

[Nader]

Paddle shifters? Seriously? Removing the clutch and shifter would take a ton of enjoyment out of the car.

 

[sween]

The viper should never have paddle shifters. If it did then it wouldn't be a viper

 

[Paul Hawker]

I just drove a Ferrari F 430 and Porsche Turbo with button/paddle shifters. They were just fantastic on full throttle runs. Clicked off amazingly fast shifts, very precise, and were great on high speed sweepers.
The down side is that the cars were flat out horrible to drive around town. Surging, poor throttle response, etc.
Word is out that they often need clutch replacements at around 10,000 miles, and it is quite expensive. For the track, and to generate impressive numbers, they are superior to sticks, but for a city/surburban driver, a stick or automatic is far more enjoyable.
For high speed runs and accelleration they made the Lamborgini I also drove feel like an antique.
Major price increase is to be expected if Viper offers these as an option.

 

[V10 ICBM]

Well...the Viper has ABS...why..its better perhaps.
Why do newbies and guys who rush their shift grind sycros or lock the rear end up (redline 4 to 3 accident) and die - bad shifting.
What do warranties do? cost the manufacturer.
I think it inevitable just because DC cannot fall behind.
When the Viper came out and then refined, there was nothing that could touch it - now every one is up to 500hp.

You might not buy a Viper with DCG or Stab Mgt or ABS or 3000 lbs - but, the orther manufactuers will build them, magazine will post rediculaous time for guys that 30 minutes total experience driving the car. So , Vipers will look slow and we we all sing cumbaya together around a fire reciting that old school is the way to be. Of course, if the car is driven as sports car, our asses will handed to us over and over again.

I not sure if I would buy a Viper with that much technology - just do not think it would be competitive price wise. And I already have the bone-simple 2000 GTS - so I already have the classic.

Frankly, just leave the car alone and take it to 3 0 0 0 pounds and add 100-150 and we is done. However, we still will not get the numbers in the magazine unless the mag writer has driver a high torque car a lot.

 

[V10 ICBM]

Hi - was that 2007 Dual Clutch tt? I thought the DCG was delayed until end of 2006-2007 and was not out yet.
The old tt only has the tiptronic.
In any case, yep , a paddle could be lurchy on a street but then a civic likely will drive better.
That tt is very very very fast and depreciates pretty slow.

 

[slaughterj]

Frankly, just leave the car alone and take it to 3 0 0 0 pounds and add 100-150 and we is done. However, we still will not get the numbers in the magazine unless the mag writer has driver a high torque car a lot.

Pretty much, but realistically that much weight won't come off, costs too much in engineering, etc. (more HP is cheaper). Even 200 pounds off plus ~150 HP, plus tweaking the gearing to get 60 MPH in 1st (to address the idiots who magazine race), is all that is needed. But restoring the curvaceous look would be a nice plus as well.

 

[V10 ICBM]

Agreed - the shape has to be something that when you put the new car next to an old...the kid in you says must have one and the kid standing next to you says I will make enough money to have one someday..that is design and the new car must have it.

I think if porcshe can get it's 4S body down to 3000, Viper can make a 3000 lb car. If GM can make a lightweight so can DC - they just have to want to. They have already done it.
Frankly, the low volume CC is there with the same engine and steel frame - it would solve a lot problems and be very fast with the existing rubber.

 

[slaughterj]

What has GM done to make a lightweight? All I hear on here is trouble with the Vette's frame, doesn't sound so easy to me.

 

[SylvanSRT]

aluminum frame, carbon/kevlar body panels and probably more i dont know the specifics on.

 

[V10 ICBM]

slaughterj - agreed it would actually mean that DC would have to invest in the car like they did almost 9 years ago with the serious upgrades to the 96-97.

However, when a 400 hp car (read Porshe Gt3) can build one out of steel (read 3000 lbs) and GM can build one out "exotic" materials and then mass market it at at price that re-prices the SRT-10 prices....is it really that tough if DC intends for the Viper to be the dominant car?

I think the real and in my opinion expected news is that Dc is trying to move the viper upmarket (read GT heavy luxuries) and my guess, bring out a cheaper V-8 to compete with the Chevy.

But you are right, it would take some money and effort...I hear silence from DC. I also re-read the SRT-engineer thread (Q&A) - it is clear that they have not the cash to do anything like that was done in 92 or 96-97.

 

[Warfang]

slaughterj - agreed it would actually mean that DC would have to invest in the car like they did almost 9 years ago with the serious upgrades to the 96-97.

However, when a 400 hp car (read Porshe Gt3) can build one out of steel (read 3000 lbs) and GM can build one out "exotic" materials and then mass market it at at price that re-prices the SRT-10 prices....is it really that tough if DC intends for the Viper to be the dominant car?

I think the real and in my opinion expected news is that Dc is trying to move the viper upmarket (read GT heavy luxuries) and my guess, bring out a cheaper V-8 to compete with the Chevy.

But you are right, it would take some money and effort...I hear silence from DC. I also re-read the SRT-engineer thread (Q&A) - it is clear that they have not the cash to do anything like that was done in 92 or 96-97.

I believe the GT3's were designed specifically for race and bragging rights... it is NOT cost justtified. Most likely they barely break even on every unit sold. While that was Dodge's strategy too back when it was still American, DC now insists Viper must make a business case... unlike it's MB branded POS exotics.

 

[V10 ICBM]

Warfang - I hope you mean by "designed specifically for race and bragging rights" that that it is a form of halo car...for the porcshe crowd. However, if you look at pricing, the GT3 is the bargain of the Porsches which easily surpass the GT3. ( But I think the Carrera GT fits that bill better as a halo car). I do not know how much is made on the sale of the SRT vs a Porsche GT3 (the Porche is 106US and I think the SRT was a little less.

You raise the good point of the effect of MB on DC . ie where is SRT vs say AMG, Does SRT the engineering group have a mandate and budget that makes sense?

One thing is for sure, if SRT's were originally priced to make money, they are now priced to make less.

 

[Warfang]

Warfang - I hope you mean by "designed specifically for race and bragging rights" that that it is a form of halo car...for the porcshe crowd. However, if you look at pricing, the GT3 is the bargain of the Porsches which easily surpass the GT3. ( But I think the Carrera GT fits that bill better as a halo car). I do not know how much is made on the sale of the SRT vs a Porsche GT3 (the Porche is 106US and I think the SRT was a little less.

You raise the good point of the effect of MB on DC . ie where is SRT vs say AMG, Does SRT the engineering group have a mandate and budget that makes sense?

One thing is for sure, if SRT's were originally priced to make money, they are now priced to make less.

Yes and no on the "halo" thing. The CarreraGT IS the halo car, but people don't spend that much on a car and track it regularly. The GT3 is meant for racing, and like you said, inexpensive relative to it's siblings... worth every penny performance-wise. So it's sort of a "sub-halo" car, or a halo car that's a bit more attainable and trackable, and can kick some serious @$$... it's not like the Boxster or Cayman can fill those shoes.

I'm trying to be REALLY patient for DC to show what it has in store for the next Viper, but the more I read about SRT's lot in life, the more discouraged I get... something about the best performance for it's price and class. Well heck, that's all and good for the neon/caliber and Charger, but the Viper was never about price/performance ratios as the top concern. The fact that it worked out that way was gravy. Vipers were always about the outrageous in looks and performance. King of the hill stuff. Affordable, yes, but price was not a crutch to performance, or the German ego. Has anyone done a comparison of MB and Chrysler vehicles? Look for the top performance of similar cars... somehow MB always comes up faster. Sure, it's more expensive, but when Dodge was American, the Viper team BLEW THEM AWAY at a fraction of the cost. When an E55 AMG (technically a souped-up econo-Benz) can keep up with a Viper... there's a problem. Only the jeep SRT beats any SUV from MB... Wonder how long that'll last?

 

[V10 ICBM]

Yep - that SRT Jeep seems to be quite awesome - it looks it too. Incredible. Is my next sports car a SUV?

 

[Warfang]

Yep - that SRT Jeep seems to be quite awesome - it looks it too. Incredible. Is my next sports car a SUV?

Too bad it's not really a "Jeep"... tows for **** and 4wd for the city.

Should have sold it as a souped up Durango. Jeep is all about 4-wheeling and utility.

 

[Snakester]

I'd say that the majority of SUVs that I see everyday on the roads are NOT used for heavy towing, or rock climbing, off-road use.

The Jeep SRT-8 is a great balance of hauling capability, and impressive performance.

It's the only Jeep that I'd ever be interested in owning, as I don't ever have any plans to tow anything, or go off-road anytime soon.

As far as a more powerful Viper is concerned, it's LONG overdue. Not because the Viper isn't a great performance car already (it is), but because it's a halo car for Dodge that has slipped from being top dog over the last few years, whereas Ford and Chevy have successfully moved up the top-performance-car food chain.

This is the point in the Viper's life where DC will either let it languish unchanged (like the NSX) Or they will step up to the challenge. And I'm hoping to see real improvements (less weight, more power) with this next model Viper.

 

[ResumeSpeed]

... Jeep is all about 4-wheeling...

Says who?

...and utility...

So you are implying then that the word "utility" in "sports utility vehicles" is defined only as "towing" capability and nothing more, and more specifically, vehicles that can only tow over 3500 lbs?

Should we also fault the Jeep SRT8 for not having a 3rd row seat?

 

[Warfang]

... Jeep is all about 4-wheeling...

Says who?


[/QUOTE]

Were you born yesterday? Jeeps by definition are supposed to be off-road vehicles. What soccer moms use them for is besides the point. What's important is that you should be able to take any vehicle branded a "Jeep" and go off road, not just putter around the mall. Even as of last year, Jeep touted the "Trail-Rated" badge, and proudly proclaimed ALL jeeps qualified. Now with the srt jeep and the compass, they are diluting their brand for a quick buck... a BIG marketing no-no.

Last I checked (unless it's changed), it tows less than 3000lbs, and they don't even reccommend you tow ANYTHING, hence where the exhaust it. There's no utility other than grocery bags. Is it faster than the Cayenne? Yep, but the srt jeep can't even tow a Viper. What's the point?