2008 VIPER SHOWN IN MAGAZINE

[SnakeBitten]

Jay, that *****!

The Gen IV seems to have the same looks of the Gen III (besides cosmetic crap). That I don't like. It probably makes it a Gen III.5

Did anyone notice that for the first time, the Viper makes less torque than hp! I thought that was the signature Viper experience, earth moving torque.

We need to get Bob Lutz back!

It seems that that is the tradeoff with variable valve timing tech...Most cars with it have less torque than HP....This isnt so bad though...It could have been like the S2000 and have 160tq while making 250hp lol....Cant wait to see what this new snake does numbers wise....Wonder if it went on a diet...Doesnt look so at a glance...Glad they got rid of the run craps...That alone should drop the weight and have better ride/handling...

Variable valve timing has nothing to do with cars having less torque then HP. It has been used mostly, in the past on small engines allowing them to at least make some torque on the bottom end and still make high HP at faster engine speeds. VVT will always result into better use of the engine, by allowing different cam profiles to be used at different engine speeds. As long as it is reliable it's always a win/win. The tuning can be more difficult, but people have been tuning vvt engines forever.

I stand corrected but I wasnt talking from an engineers point of view...Just typing out loud that it seems seemed to me like every VVT car Ive ever seen has always had less torque than hp..I cant think of any NA motor with VVT that has more torque than hp...

 

[Vypr Phil]

FYI, The "VCA" had the 2008 details at VOI. We are not allowed to release details until they are revealed to the press on press day at NAIAS.

By the way, the HP IS NOT THE BIG STORY OF THIS CAR...... sorry, you'll have to wait until press day to hear the rest of the story.... info that only the VCA knows

Ok Folks, a lot of speculation going on here about killer news at NAIAS.

“the HP IS NOT THE BIG STORY OF THIS CAR”

Allow me to add my $0.02:

Torque has been a subject generously talked about on this thread. I am willing to guess that one part of the big news will be a substantial increase of torque in the midrange, maybe even low-RPM, thanks to judiciously designed and programmed Variable Valve Timing. This is by no means new technology, BMW had it for at least a decade and they call their system VANOS (German for Variable Nockenwelle Stellung = variable camshaft positioning), Honda had it even longer in various forms, and many others. It is however, I believe, a novelty in a pushrod engine.

How does this translate to the 08 Viper performance envelope? 0-60, we all know is driver dependent and limited by traction at the moment and place (too many variables: tire temp, tire age, tire wear, alignment, wheel hop, track conditions), so at best, incrementally better.

0-100: now the improved mid-range torque as well as the 90 HP boost in power will come into play in a very dramatic way. We will see a big improvement and to those concerned about ZO6 I would say: Sleep well! Nothing to worry about.

0-150: Ah! Here we will see real SuperCar territory and leave Mr. Bow-Tie many car lengths behind; many, many car lengths…..

Top speed? Vert: open 200 mph, closed 205. Coupe 208-210 mph would be my guess at this time.

The second part of the killer news could be that all of this performance gain did not have a negative impact on the city/highway consumption values, quite to the contrary. Again, thanks to VVT and massively improved low-end torque, the gas guzzler tax will not be applicable on the 08 Viper. I know this is a stretch, but one can always dream. (If this is true, then sadly, the dealers will tack on even fatter “Added Dealer Profit” secondary stickers during the first 6 months on the market).

At this time, I am not making any assumptions on weight reduction and base all my speculation on unchanged Gen III weight. If Dodge managed to reduce weight, more power to them and even better Power to Weight Ratio for us!!!

Furthermore, I believe that the technological advances made to the following driveline components will also have a beneficial effect on performance and drivability: dual disc clutch, redesigned gears and synchros in the transmission and new speed-sensing, limited-slip differential; let us not forget one last item: Michelin PS2, finally!

Again, all of this is speculation at this time, so please nobody take this post as “Gospel”! As I said before, just my $0.02!

 

[elanderholm]

Looks like another let down to me. I am truly dissapointed.

Buy a Vette. Please, buy a Vette.

I'll probably just save my money at this point. No reason to step up for the new Viper when it will get whooped by a Vette.

I'm a big Viper fan. That's why I am so dissapionted. Not sure why everyone else sees this as a great victory. Denial I guess.

Defined whooped? 1/4 mile? street racing? road racing? If it is street racing or 1/4 mile I could care less. The big NA engine in the viper will be great for doing lots of lapping days. I like the direction of the new viper.

 

[vipah]

Looks like another let down to me. I am truly dissapointed.

Buy a Vette. Please, buy a Vette.

I'll probably just save my money at this point. No reason to step up for the new Viper when it will get whooped by a Vette.

I'm a big Viper fan. That's why I am so dissapionted. Not sure why everyone else sees this as a great victory. Denial I guess.

Defined whooped? 1/4 mile? street racing? road racing? If it is street racing or 1/4 mile I could care less. The big NA engine in the viper will be great for doing lots of lapping days. I like the direction of the new viper.

I like the direction too, but not the distance. If the Vette SS lives up to what is being leaked then it will beat the Viper in all those catagories. It is lighter and has more HP.

I see no reason that the Vette won't come through with what they say. The did it with the C6 Z06 even though most everyone here wouldn't believe it until it hit the showrooms.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Looks like another let down to me. I am truly dissapointed.

Buy a Vette. Please, buy a Vette.

I'll probably just save my money at this point. No reason to step up for the new Viper when it will get whooped by a Vette.

I'm a big Viper fan. That's why I am so dissapionted. Not sure why everyone else sees this as a great victory. Denial I guess.

Defined whooped? 1/4 mile? street racing? road racing? If it is street racing or 1/4 mile I could care less. The big NA engine in the viper will be great for doing lots of lapping days. I like the direction of the new viper.

I like the direction too, but not the distance. If the Vette SS lives up to what is being leaked then it will beat the Viper in all those catagories. It is lighter and has more HP.

I see no reason that the Vette won't come through with what they say. The did it with the C6 Z06 even though most everyone here wouldn't believe it until it hit the showrooms.

After 30 years of the Vette coming up short can you blame anyone for waiting for GM to deliver before giving them any credit?

So they finally produced a class performer with the C6 Z06 and we are supposed to assume lightning is gonna strike twice in a row? Sorry. Dodge has been delivering since 1992. GM needs to re-establish some consistancy before I start worrying about their press releases.

 

[vipah]

Looks like another let down to me. I am truly dissapointed.

Buy a Vette. Please, buy a Vette.

I'll probably just save my money at this point. No reason to step up for the new Viper when it will get whooped by a Vette.

I'm a big Viper fan. That's why I am so dissapionted. Not sure why everyone else sees this as a great victory. Denial I guess.

Defined whooped? 1/4 mile? street racing? road racing? If it is street racing or 1/4 mile I could care less. The big NA engine in the viper will be great for doing lots of lapping days. I like the direction of the new viper.

I like the direction too, but not the distance. If the Vette SS lives up to what is being leaked then it will beat the Viper in all those catagories. It is lighter and has more HP.

I see no reason that the Vette won't come through with what they say. The did it with the C6 Z06 even though most everyone here wouldn't believe it until it hit the showrooms.

After 30 years of the Vette coming up short can you blame anyone for waiting for GM to deliver before giving them any credit?

So they finally produced a class performer with the C6 Z06 and we are supposed to assume lightning is gonna strike twice in a row? Sorry. Dodge has been delivering since 1992. GM needs to re-establish some consistancy before I start worrying about their press releases.

That's the exact thinking that let them catch up. If anyone in my business underestimated the competition like this, and let them catch me, I would fire them.

 

[George Murray]

Why all the yakkin' about that Blow Tie Blue Dress Blue Veiner Whatever Kiddy Car crap shakeybolt already. It'll probably pop engines every 10K miles just like the current Cheeze 6 anyway.

Note: If you ever use the term --> Zed Ought Six <---- like some punk I heard at a track once, you are geigh.

 

[Yellow32]

...
So they finally produced a class performer with the C6 Z06 and we are supposed to assume lightning is gonna strike twice in a row? Sorry. Dodge has been delivering since 1992. GM needs to re-establish some consistancy before I start worrying about their press releases.

What C6Zs have you been around? I have seen them blow up at the track all over the place. If that's "class performer" I think the term is a bit liberal.

I have seen many new C6Zs blow transmissions, timing chains, and so on and I don't even go to the track that often right now. Some of them lost it right in front on me and I have slid through their fluids. One weekend in October saw more than 4 of them go down, even a ligenfelter!

I think the C6Zs blow, they are tin cans and are not "performers" at all, they are show boats for street driving. Good for those who can keep them together, they sure need luck to do that. Meanwhile I'm cranking by in my solid GTS (and my SRT-10 was solid too even though I needed to add the CC oil pan to keep the motor well oiled).

Even LG can't keep them running consistently. (Lou Gigliotti=LG)

-J

 

[valentine_viper]

[/QUOTE]
I like the direction too, but not the distance. If the Vette SS lives up to what is being leaked then it will beat the Viper in all those catagories. It is lighter and has more HP.

I see no reason that the Vette won't come through with what they say. The did it with the C6 Z06 even though most everyone here wouldn't believe it until it hit the showrooms.

[/QUOTE]

I was checking out the Corvette Forum to see their reaction to the news of the '08 Viper and was shocked... but not by thier reaction, but by the number of threads I saw discussing the various problems with the Z06; dropped valves, blown motors, roofs flying off, busted rears and transmissions, bad paint jobs, etc. I knew they had their share of problems, but it seems to be much worse than I thought. There was also a large number of posts complaining about terrible dealer support and unethical treatment of customers.

Even if GM manages to produce the Blue Devil and it out-performs the '08 Viper for ther same price, I still wouldn't touch one until I was sure they had worked out their QC issues (which seems unlikely). If they can't build a 505 hp car that stays together, what will happen when they pump it up to 650+???

I'm not a Corvette hater. I think the Z06 is a beautiful car and the performance is stellar. But the reliability is AWFUL. Some have been critical of DC for not doing more to improve the '08 Viper. But let's keep in mind that DC has managed to produce a huge hp/tq car with astonishingly good reliability and factory support. I'm confident that the '08 will be no different in that regard. In my opinion, that matters more than a few 10s of a second in the 1/4 mile.

 

[George Murray]

Well said, VV

 

[Viper23]

You want to talk about car problems now with the Z06, just wait till the SS or Blue devil comes out. The problems they will encounter is probably the same reason why DC made a N/A car instead of just installing a S/C from the factory and calling it a new car. You are going to have people retune the S/C for more power and "KABOOM" and guess what, you are going to have people cry hell because it will not be covered under their service contracts.

I understand that test will show the vette take it in most categories, but I do not see how someone can honestly say that a S/C vette, even though it comes from the factory that way, is better than a N/A Viper. I will rather have a 600HP N/A Viper over a 650-700HP blown Vette.

Although I think that the new engine with the higher compression might not take a S/C well (and it might), but you can get a Viper and put a paxton on it and kill any color "devil" they put out.

 

[Vypr Phil]

I was checking out the Corvette Forum to see their reaction to the news of the '08 Viper and was shocked... but not by thier reaction, but by the number of threads I saw discussing the various problems with the Z06; dropped valves, blown motors, roofs flying off, busted rears and transmissions, bad paint jobs, etc. I knew they had their share of problems, but it seems to be much worse than I thought. There was also a large number of posts complaining about terrible dealer support and unethical treatment of customers.

Even if GM manages to produce the Blue Devil and it out-performs the '08 Viper for ther same price, I still wouldn't touch one until I was sure they had worked out their QC issues (which seems unlikely). If they can't build a 505 hp car that stays together, what will happen when they pump it up to 650+???

Answer: Not SS, not Blue Devil, but Corvette HG, as in Hand Grenade...........

I say, bring it on!!!

The only people impressed will be the magazine scribes, if the hand grenade dose not self-destruct during testing

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

...
So they finally produced a class performer with the C6 Z06 and we are supposed to assume lightning is gonna strike twice in a row? Sorry. Dodge has been delivering since 1992. GM needs to re-establish some consistancy before I start worrying about their press releases.

What C6Zs have you been around? I have seen them blow up at the track all over the place. If that's "class performer" I think the term is a bit liberal.

Drags or Road?

There are a couple Z06 buds that I track (Road course) with. Apparently they know how to take care of their Vettes better than the average owner. Dunno. But if they have had any major problems I haven't seen them at the track, and these two guys know how to drive, fast. Very fast.

But my point was regarding C6 Z06 performance, not durability. Apologies.

 

[SnakeBitten]

anybody see this???Maybe the SS.Blue Devil etc is a hoax...Maybe the 08 Viper will be king for a while...

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/01/report-blue-devil-prototype-faked-by-winding-road/

 

[valentine_viper]

anybody see this???Maybe the SS.Blue Devil etc is a hoax...Maybe the 08 Viper will be king for a while...

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/01/report-blue-devil-prototype-faked-by-winding-road/

I did see this. Although this particular car was a hoax, I believe the project is real. From what I have heard, GM has not yet "officially" comitted to taking the Blue Devil to actual production.

It would sure leave egg on GMs face if they don't deliver. Given GM's current financial state, it's far from a certainty.

 

[Wicked]

GM is just crap imho. I use to be a diehard GM guy and have owned a ton of GM products over the last 10 years. Lets talk about their quality.

Z06 Roofs flying off: Gm's fix was "Don't roll your windows down above 65mph" Take the car in for any problems incured by actually using the power the car has, and they give you a hard time saying you abused the car.

I have a 05 Escalade that I got 2 years ago and when it gets cold outside I can't get gas in it. It just clicks off over and over again. I take it in and GM has a service note on these vehicles. "It says it's not their fault and the gas companies need to change their gas pumps." I ask for a list of approved gas stations and of course there is none. Disregard the fact my wifes 06 H2, Business partners 06 H2, 05 Denalli, 05 GMC Truck, 04 Tahoe's don't have the problem. Oh and the coolant lines gurgle and make constant noise if you have the ac on. That's what 60k gets you through GM.

I do a simple burn out in my 05 Vette and the rear end breaks like an egg. They give me a hard time about fixing it and have the guy who sold me the car call me to trap me into saying I was racing the car.

Then the simple fact their cars don't hold their vaules period. My 06 Vette vert stickered at 64k and with 4k miles is worth about 48k. I figured this system out, you simply get no credit for any options you purchase. Someone that purchased a 54k stripped vert would get the same trade in, lol.

Long story short, a lot of you seem to be so concerned about GM and the Corvette. Who cares. A Viper is a Viper. Even if they come out with the Blue Devil, so what. You can't buy a 45k Viper, you can buy a 45k new Vett. And that's all 99% of the people see. They wont see a blue devil, they'll see a Corvette.

I'm excited for the new Viper to come out and am finally going to pick one up. I wont pay over sticker for it, so I'll wait a few months if I have too. I just wish I would have picked up a Viper instead of my Vette last year. Oh well, we all make bad decisions at some point.

Jason

 

[Yellow32]

Drags or Road?

There are a couple Z06 buds that I track (Road course) with. Apparently they know how to take care of their Vettes better than the average owner. Dunno. But if they have had any major problems I haven't seen them at the track, and these two guys know how to drive, fast. Very fast.

But my point was regarding C6 Z06 performance, not durability. Apologies.

Road Course.

Some of the C6Zs I referred to were brand new (less than 3K miles...)

Durability is a definite weakspot, not to be overlooked.

I have found Viper's to be very well built and durable.

-J

 

[DSR207]

Quote:

"GM is just crap imho. I use to be a diehard GM guy and have owned a ton of GM products over the last 10 years. Lets talk about their quality.

Z06 Roofs flying off: Gm's fix was "Don't roll your windows down above 65mph" Take the car in for any problems incured by actually using the power the car has, and they give you a hard time saying you abused the car.

I have a 05 Escalade that I got 2 years ago and when it gets cold outside I can't get gas in it. It just clicks off over and over again. I take it in and GM has a service note on these vehicles. "It says it's not their fault and the gas companies need to change their gas pumps." I ask for a list of approved gas stations and of course there is none. Disregard the fact my wifes 06 H2, Business partners 06 H2, 05 Denalli, 05 GMC Truck, 04 Tahoe's don't have the problem. Oh and the coolant lines gurgle and make constant noise if you have the ac on. That's what 60k gets you through GM.

I do a simple burn out in my 05 Vette and the rear end breaks like an egg. They give me a hard time about fixing it and have the guy who sold me the car call me to trap me into saying I was racing the car.

Then the simple fact their cars don't hold their vaules period. My 06 Vette vert stickered at 64k and with 4k miles is worth about 48k. I figured this system out, you simply get no credit for any options you purchase. Someone that purchased a 54k stripped vert would get the same trade in, lol.

<font color="red">Long story short, a lot of you seem to be so concerned about GM and the Corvette. Who cares. A Viper is a Viper. Even if they come out with the Blue Devil, so what. You can't buy a 45k Viper, you can buy a 45k new Vett. And that's all 99% of the people see. They wont see a blue devil, they'll see a Corvette.</font>

I'm excited for the new Viper to come out and am finally going to pick one up. I wont pay over sticker for it, so I'll wait a few months if I have too. I just wish I would have picked up a Viper instead of my Vette last year. Oh well, we all make bad decisions at some point.

Jason "



Bless you...

 

[LW VIPER]

I like the direction too, but not the distance. If the Vette SS lives up to what is being leaked then it will beat the Viper in all those catagories. It is lighter and has more HP.

I see no reason that the Vette won't come through with what they say. The did it with the C6 Z06 even though most everyone here wouldn't believe it until it hit the showrooms.

[/QUOTE]

I was checking out the Corvette Forum to see their reaction to the news of the '08 Viper and was shocked... but not by thier reaction, but by the number of threads I saw discussing the various problems with the Z06; dropped valves, blown motors, roofs flying off, busted rears and transmissions, bad paint jobs, etc. I knew they had their share of problems, but it seems to be much worse than I thought. There was also a large number of posts complaining about terrible dealer support and unethical treatment of customers.

Even if GM manages to produce the Blue Devil and it out-performs the '08 Viper for ther same price, I still wouldn't touch one until I was sure they had worked out their QC issues (which seems unlikely). If they can't build a 505 hp car that stays together, what will happen when they pump it up to 650+???

I'm not a Corvette hater. I think the Z06 is a beautiful car and the performance is stellar. But the reliability is AWFUL. Some have been critical of DC for not doing more to improve the '08 Viper. But let's keep in mind that DC has managed to produce a huge hp/tq car with astonishingly good reliability and factory support. I'm confident that the '08 will be no different in that regard. In my opinion, that matters more than a few 10s of a second in the 1/4 mile.

[/QUOTE]

Actually, the reliability is quite good. I currently own a Z51 C6 Corvette, my third, and I've owned two Vipers, the last pictured to the left. I've never had a single problem reported in these forums about both Corvettes and Vipers (better get a Quaiffe rear end before yours breaks, etc) Forums are a great place to discuss problems and look for solutions. Don't go by the postings to determine how the cars run. Just like the Vipers, people don't usually post lots of threads saying--- my car is running great, please respond.

In any event, I always had good mechanics (Ted May on my Vipers) keep up my cars on a regular basis, and didn't expect perfection from high horsepower sports cars.....

Drive what you like, appreciate them all.

 

[ViperArry]

I thought the 2008 Viper would have more changes to the body..... isn´t it possible we are looking at the 2007 model?

 

[valentine_viper]

[/QUOTE]
Actually, the reliability is quite good. I currently own a Z51 C6 Corvette, my third, and I've owned two Vipers, the last pictured to the left. I've never had a single problem reported in these forums about both Corvettes and Vipers (better get a Quaiffe rear end before yours breaks, etc) Forums are a great place to discuss problems and look for solutions. Don't go by the postings to determine how the cars run. Just like the Vipers, people don't usually post lots of threads saying--- my car is running great, please respond.

In any event, I always had good mechanics (Ted May on my Vipers) keep up my cars on a regular basis, and didn't expect perfection from high horsepower sports cars.....

Drive what you like, appreciate them all.

[/QUOTE]

A friend of mine has a Z-51 Vette with a heads and cam package that makes 518 rwhp (easily smokes my Viper) and it has been very reliable. The QC issues with the Vette previously mentioned are all specifically with the Z06, not the regular Vette which is not in the same class as a Viper.

There can be no denying that the Z06 has been plagued with problems at a frequency that far exceeds resonable expectations, even for an extreme performance car. There are a number of Forum members here that defected to the Viper for that very reason. There is also no denying that GM has failed to stand behind their product as they should. This is the opinion of numerous Z06 owners, not mine. The fact that some Z06s run fine and experience no issues while others fall apart within days of delivery is especially troubling since it highlights the fact that GM has very inconsistent build quality and parts dependability. This is a classic sign of "cutting corners" to keep costs down.

I'm not saying that Vipers are industructable, but breakage if far more rare than it is with the Z06. And when it does happen, DC is right there to make good on it.

I also believe that everyone should drive what they like. In my case, my aversion to the Z06 has nothing to do with personal taste or brand loyalty. If the Z06 had the reliability of the Viper, there would be one in my garage right now.