former345bhpLS1
Enthusiast
Recently I had the immense privilege of renting a Gen V for 24 hours from Club Sportiva in the Bay Area (they are located primarily in the Bay Area / San Jose, but also have a location in SoCal called Marina Del Rey). BTW, the experience with Club Sportiva was excellent. Very straightforward, funny issues or fines. Just like borrowing a car for a day from a friend (never payed my friends a $1000 for a car borrow, but some things can't carry over).
Anyway, back to the important part...the Car! I'm writing this, of course, for those who have not yet driven the car or only driven it for a short time. My background is a serious Viper fan who has never owned. My closest friend (Dave), who also joined me for the Gen V rental, is a former 97 GTS owner who sold his car 10 years ago. He put 40,000 miles on his Gen 2 and was kind enough to let me put 3000 miles on it over 3.5 years. I owned a 98 C5 coupe at the time. Since then, Dave has owned several other interesting cars and currently has a 2009 Z06 and a 2009 911 C2S PDK. He brought the 911 up for the trip and it allowed for a few back to back comparisons.
We rented the car because we are both very interested in buying one in the not so distant future, but neither of us have driven a Viper since 2003 (I drove 2 other Gen2s as well, both 2001s that were similar, but felt slightly toned down compared to the 97 GTS...possibly due to their stock exhaust which is disturbingly quiet). We feared that much of the Viper magic would have been engineered out over the years, especially with the new "refinement" of the Gen V. It seemed that the new Gen V was likely to feel like a faster Z06, extremely capable, but not very interesting unless you are driving the car extremely hard (like on the track). We couldn't have been more wrong!
For those who loved the previous Vipers (or at least the Gen 2), this car is nothing short of Driving Perfection! It is sensatioal to drive on the road, but not just because it is extremely fast and powerful, but because it has so much personality and still immensely capable.
However, our first impressions were not so positive. Both of us needed to drive at least 40-50 miles before we could get the hang of things and appreciate the car.
The first issue is visibility. We are both fairly tall (I'm 5'11" and Dave is 6'3"). We both fit well, but the view out the front took some getting used to. It took a bit of time to adjust the seat and get forward visibility to a good place. After 30-45 minutes of driving, I did not notice the visibility issue at all and I drove for ~250 miles without any issues with the visibility. Dave would consider a seat lowering kit, but it was not a must and he was also able to drive comfortably. Certainly, the view out over the hood is awesome and very nostalgic (lots of deja vu moments on this trip).
The next issue was the initial high work load of driving. I don't spend much time driving in San Jose and trying to navigate with the cars less than ideal visibility (especially in the first few miles of driving), the noise, borrowed car, and all the feedback coming from the chassis, steering, engine,...everything(!) made driving stressful and unpleasant. It was sort of like trying to conduct a job interview at a loud and crowded party. It's had to understand what the car is telling you at first, because there is so much info coming in at the same time. I also headed down Palomares road (for those of you who know the Bay Area). The car handled it fine, but the road is a bit rough and it was difficult to appreciate the cars virtues. That said, Dave was driving behind me in the 911 C2S and had a hell of a time keeping up. This in spite of the fact that I felt like I was driving kind of slow with the engine between 2000 and 3000 RPMs, usually 2 gears higher than optimal for the speed. This car does not like to go slow (like the Gen 2) and you generally find yourself going much faster than you expected (and all well below the cars capabilities).
However, once we reached my usual stomping grounds things got much better. Since I didn't have to focus much on navigating, I could start to filter and organize all of the cars feedback. Suddenly the car was much more comfortable and the feedback was very useful.
The steering is fantastic. Well weighted, very precise, and good to excellent feedback. Feedback is maybe 80-85% as good as the 911 (with hydraulic steering) and turn-in is immediate. Turn-in is the best I've experienced on a Front-Mid engine rear-drive car. Many journalist have claimed that the steering is too quick and they spend a lot of time sawing at the wheel. I didn't experience this at all and I'm not sure what they are feeling or thinking. The ratio is the same as all prior Vipers and is moderately quick, but not supper quick. It might be the immediacy of the response more than anything. I did not expect a F-R (front-engine rear-drive)car to turn in so immediately, usually these cars resist directional changes more than mid-rear cars. The lack of initial tire scrub or resistance to rotation might be the issue. This car seriously turns in like a 911 (reinforced by a back to back comparison), it is very agile and very precise.
Of course, the engine is amazing. No surprise, but the horsepower and torque is immense and very violent (in all the best ways, 640 bhp should not be subtle nor can it be without filtering). The throttle response is far better than the Z06's and much more immediate. This may be what intimidates so many new drivers / journalists. Any small changes in throttle position leads to an immediate change in torque output. Torque peak maybe at 5000 RPMs, but the low end response os very close to the Gen 2s (albeit, viewed through rose-colored glasses with 10 years in between). It is as close to a mechanical linkage that I have felt in a modern car and can be startling at first. It can also make the car harder to drive a low speeds until you recalibrate your brain. This is one of the fun features of the car, it demands your attention and driving craftsmanship even when you are driving through the Berkeley hills at 20-25 mph, driving this car slow is fun! I can't think of any other modern cars like this.
Engine still has a lot of good character and still defines the driving experience. The stock is exhaust is surprisingly good and makes blipping for downshifts a source of giddiness. The lightweight fly wheel also makes downshifting a blast and the engine feels much more alive than the Gen 2 stock. Operating that engine is such a pleasure and joy.
The other big surprise was the traction. This car puts 640 hp down to the pavement MUCH better than a Z06 does with 505 or a Gen 2 with ~500 hp. I experienced very little wheelspin and only a handful of TC activations. The TC is pretty liberal and I managed to see pretty impressive wheelspin on one acceleration run without any intervention (as long as the car is pointed straight and managed). The power coming out of corners in 2nd gear is remarkable in 60-70 deg ambient temps. The car is much more manageable on corner exit than I would have ever expected given it's specs.
Handling balance was very neutral. Feedback during cornering was very good and I felt comfortable pushing the car reasonably hard after only 60 minutes of cautious seat time. There is also a lot of feedback from the chassis in addition to the steering (this may startle your passenger on a winding road), but it tells you a ton about the pavement conditions and traction situation. Once you learn to gather-up this info, driving the car pretty hard is very predictable, but you need this info to manage the car properly.
Brakes were better than expected, more potent than stock Z06 or 911 brakes. Brake pedal is very linear and engages at the top of the pedal travel. Feel is excellent, didn't drive hard enough / long enough to see any kind of fade.
The car I drove only had 2100 miles on it (2500 when returned
) and the shifter needed to break in more. The gates where wider and precise, but both Dave an I frequently hung-up on the 2-3 shift. Need more practice.
Interior was very nice and comfortable with a lot of leg room. Wrapped surfaces and definitely nicer than plastic, but I never minded the plastic. The UConnect system was easy to use, but I didn't explore it much.
I liked the digital tach more than expected. It works better in person than in videos and responds very quickly. It does a good imitation of an analog tach and I never thought about it during the drive.
There was one squeak emanating from the passenger side of the cabin, which is a bit disappointing on a car with 2100 miles, but it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the car.
Most important: Fun of driving
This car is the most enjoyable car that I have ever driven, by a wide margin. The controls are linear and immediate. The car is agile and very precise, and the power is insane with a chassis that can really deploy it.
But most impressive, this car retains like 90% of the Gen 2's personality (in my estimation) while adding more power, better handling balance, more agility, and serious brakes. It manages to be just as much fun as the Gen 2 (way, way more fun than a Z06), but not as nerve wracking to drive. You still have the excitement, but not the trepidations (that I used to have). It is simply stunning and I am still amazed that SRT pulled this off. I was very excited when this car came out. I have wanted a Gen 2 for 12 years now (medical school and residency precluded purchase during those years) and this seemed a like chance to effectively buy a new Gen 2. I had high hopes and they were still exceeded.
However, they were not exceeded after a 2 mile drive on level roads or even 20 minutes driving in traffic. You can't judge this car till you really get to know it. This is the biggest challenge for this car, finding opportunities for potential owner's to experience the cars virtues when you cannot even guess what the car is like from a 10 minute test drive (if the dealer will even let you).
Similarly, most of these journalists (like the MotorTrend comments where they are weary of the car or think it is trying to intimidate them) just need to drive the car more and not get hung-up on first impressions and precedent. I think they are driving the car for a few minutes, generating an initial impression, then trying to reinforce that impression for the rest of the drive. The answer is - drive longer and drive harder.
But after driving the car for 24 hours, I want one more than any car before and I now I need to figure out how to make it work.
It also answered my question about owning a Gen 2 vs Gen 5. I think that most of the special driving experience that the Gen 2 offers is part of the Gen 5. That said, the cars are different enough to co-exist in a collection and there is a great "authenticity" to the Gen 2 as a truly analog car. But the Gen 5 is a worthy successor to the Gen 2 in my mind, not just a look-alike body.
Also, to all the naysayers who frequent these forums, you have absolutely NO IDEA what the car is like until you drive it. The numbers say almost nothing about the actual experience. If you are serious about the car, you need to really drive it before making a judgement or insisting that SRT make changes to something. Borrowing the car for 24 hours will cost you just over $1000 with tax (good to purchase extra miles too). Even if you have to fly in to drive the car, it is worth it to really know the car. If you don't do that, you don't have a leg to stand on (in my eyes).
This car is a masterpiece for quick blasts on the back roads and there is nothing on the market even remotely like it. It is likely the last of the great analog cars and it has been engineered to perfection for an F-R car with monster power.
If you ever run across an SRT engineer, buy them a drink because they definitely deserve it.
I'll try to post a few pictures, but they are iPhone pictures of a red Viper, nothing you haven't seen before.
Best,
Nick
Anyway, back to the important part...the Car! I'm writing this, of course, for those who have not yet driven the car or only driven it for a short time. My background is a serious Viper fan who has never owned. My closest friend (Dave), who also joined me for the Gen V rental, is a former 97 GTS owner who sold his car 10 years ago. He put 40,000 miles on his Gen 2 and was kind enough to let me put 3000 miles on it over 3.5 years. I owned a 98 C5 coupe at the time. Since then, Dave has owned several other interesting cars and currently has a 2009 Z06 and a 2009 911 C2S PDK. He brought the 911 up for the trip and it allowed for a few back to back comparisons.
We rented the car because we are both very interested in buying one in the not so distant future, but neither of us have driven a Viper since 2003 (I drove 2 other Gen2s as well, both 2001s that were similar, but felt slightly toned down compared to the 97 GTS...possibly due to their stock exhaust which is disturbingly quiet). We feared that much of the Viper magic would have been engineered out over the years, especially with the new "refinement" of the Gen V. It seemed that the new Gen V was likely to feel like a faster Z06, extremely capable, but not very interesting unless you are driving the car extremely hard (like on the track). We couldn't have been more wrong!
For those who loved the previous Vipers (or at least the Gen 2), this car is nothing short of Driving Perfection! It is sensatioal to drive on the road, but not just because it is extremely fast and powerful, but because it has so much personality and still immensely capable.
However, our first impressions were not so positive. Both of us needed to drive at least 40-50 miles before we could get the hang of things and appreciate the car.
The first issue is visibility. We are both fairly tall (I'm 5'11" and Dave is 6'3"). We both fit well, but the view out the front took some getting used to. It took a bit of time to adjust the seat and get forward visibility to a good place. After 30-45 minutes of driving, I did not notice the visibility issue at all and I drove for ~250 miles without any issues with the visibility. Dave would consider a seat lowering kit, but it was not a must and he was also able to drive comfortably. Certainly, the view out over the hood is awesome and very nostalgic (lots of deja vu moments on this trip).
The next issue was the initial high work load of driving. I don't spend much time driving in San Jose and trying to navigate with the cars less than ideal visibility (especially in the first few miles of driving), the noise, borrowed car, and all the feedback coming from the chassis, steering, engine,...everything(!) made driving stressful and unpleasant. It was sort of like trying to conduct a job interview at a loud and crowded party. It's had to understand what the car is telling you at first, because there is so much info coming in at the same time. I also headed down Palomares road (for those of you who know the Bay Area). The car handled it fine, but the road is a bit rough and it was difficult to appreciate the cars virtues. That said, Dave was driving behind me in the 911 C2S and had a hell of a time keeping up. This in spite of the fact that I felt like I was driving kind of slow with the engine between 2000 and 3000 RPMs, usually 2 gears higher than optimal for the speed. This car does not like to go slow (like the Gen 2) and you generally find yourself going much faster than you expected (and all well below the cars capabilities).
However, once we reached my usual stomping grounds things got much better. Since I didn't have to focus much on navigating, I could start to filter and organize all of the cars feedback. Suddenly the car was much more comfortable and the feedback was very useful.
The steering is fantastic. Well weighted, very precise, and good to excellent feedback. Feedback is maybe 80-85% as good as the 911 (with hydraulic steering) and turn-in is immediate. Turn-in is the best I've experienced on a Front-Mid engine rear-drive car. Many journalist have claimed that the steering is too quick and they spend a lot of time sawing at the wheel. I didn't experience this at all and I'm not sure what they are feeling or thinking. The ratio is the same as all prior Vipers and is moderately quick, but not supper quick. It might be the immediacy of the response more than anything. I did not expect a F-R (front-engine rear-drive)car to turn in so immediately, usually these cars resist directional changes more than mid-rear cars. The lack of initial tire scrub or resistance to rotation might be the issue. This car seriously turns in like a 911 (reinforced by a back to back comparison), it is very agile and very precise.
Of course, the engine is amazing. No surprise, but the horsepower and torque is immense and very violent (in all the best ways, 640 bhp should not be subtle nor can it be without filtering). The throttle response is far better than the Z06's and much more immediate. This may be what intimidates so many new drivers / journalists. Any small changes in throttle position leads to an immediate change in torque output. Torque peak maybe at 5000 RPMs, but the low end response os very close to the Gen 2s (albeit, viewed through rose-colored glasses with 10 years in between). It is as close to a mechanical linkage that I have felt in a modern car and can be startling at first. It can also make the car harder to drive a low speeds until you recalibrate your brain. This is one of the fun features of the car, it demands your attention and driving craftsmanship even when you are driving through the Berkeley hills at 20-25 mph, driving this car slow is fun! I can't think of any other modern cars like this.
Engine still has a lot of good character and still defines the driving experience. The stock is exhaust is surprisingly good and makes blipping for downshifts a source of giddiness. The lightweight fly wheel also makes downshifting a blast and the engine feels much more alive than the Gen 2 stock. Operating that engine is such a pleasure and joy.
The other big surprise was the traction. This car puts 640 hp down to the pavement MUCH better than a Z06 does with 505 or a Gen 2 with ~500 hp. I experienced very little wheelspin and only a handful of TC activations. The TC is pretty liberal and I managed to see pretty impressive wheelspin on one acceleration run without any intervention (as long as the car is pointed straight and managed). The power coming out of corners in 2nd gear is remarkable in 60-70 deg ambient temps. The car is much more manageable on corner exit than I would have ever expected given it's specs.
Handling balance was very neutral. Feedback during cornering was very good and I felt comfortable pushing the car reasonably hard after only 60 minutes of cautious seat time. There is also a lot of feedback from the chassis in addition to the steering (this may startle your passenger on a winding road), but it tells you a ton about the pavement conditions and traction situation. Once you learn to gather-up this info, driving the car pretty hard is very predictable, but you need this info to manage the car properly.
Brakes were better than expected, more potent than stock Z06 or 911 brakes. Brake pedal is very linear and engages at the top of the pedal travel. Feel is excellent, didn't drive hard enough / long enough to see any kind of fade.
The car I drove only had 2100 miles on it (2500 when returned
) and the shifter needed to break in more. The gates where wider and precise, but both Dave an I frequently hung-up on the 2-3 shift. Need more practice.Interior was very nice and comfortable with a lot of leg room. Wrapped surfaces and definitely nicer than plastic, but I never minded the plastic. The UConnect system was easy to use, but I didn't explore it much.
I liked the digital tach more than expected. It works better in person than in videos and responds very quickly. It does a good imitation of an analog tach and I never thought about it during the drive.
There was one squeak emanating from the passenger side of the cabin, which is a bit disappointing on a car with 2100 miles, but it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the car.
Most important: Fun of driving
This car is the most enjoyable car that I have ever driven, by a wide margin. The controls are linear and immediate. The car is agile and very precise, and the power is insane with a chassis that can really deploy it.
But most impressive, this car retains like 90% of the Gen 2's personality (in my estimation) while adding more power, better handling balance, more agility, and serious brakes. It manages to be just as much fun as the Gen 2 (way, way more fun than a Z06), but not as nerve wracking to drive. You still have the excitement, but not the trepidations (that I used to have). It is simply stunning and I am still amazed that SRT pulled this off. I was very excited when this car came out. I have wanted a Gen 2 for 12 years now (medical school and residency precluded purchase during those years) and this seemed a like chance to effectively buy a new Gen 2. I had high hopes and they were still exceeded.
However, they were not exceeded after a 2 mile drive on level roads or even 20 minutes driving in traffic. You can't judge this car till you really get to know it. This is the biggest challenge for this car, finding opportunities for potential owner's to experience the cars virtues when you cannot even guess what the car is like from a 10 minute test drive (if the dealer will even let you).
Similarly, most of these journalists (like the MotorTrend comments where they are weary of the car or think it is trying to intimidate them) just need to drive the car more and not get hung-up on first impressions and precedent. I think they are driving the car for a few minutes, generating an initial impression, then trying to reinforce that impression for the rest of the drive. The answer is - drive longer and drive harder.
But after driving the car for 24 hours, I want one more than any car before and I now I need to figure out how to make it work.
It also answered my question about owning a Gen 2 vs Gen 5. I think that most of the special driving experience that the Gen 2 offers is part of the Gen 5. That said, the cars are different enough to co-exist in a collection and there is a great "authenticity" to the Gen 2 as a truly analog car. But the Gen 5 is a worthy successor to the Gen 2 in my mind, not just a look-alike body.
Also, to all the naysayers who frequent these forums, you have absolutely NO IDEA what the car is like until you drive it. The numbers say almost nothing about the actual experience. If you are serious about the car, you need to really drive it before making a judgement or insisting that SRT make changes to something. Borrowing the car for 24 hours will cost you just over $1000 with tax (good to purchase extra miles too). Even if you have to fly in to drive the car, it is worth it to really know the car. If you don't do that, you don't have a leg to stand on (in my eyes).
This car is a masterpiece for quick blasts on the back roads and there is nothing on the market even remotely like it. It is likely the last of the great analog cars and it has been engineered to perfection for an F-R car with monster power.
If you ever run across an SRT engineer, buy them a drink because they definitely deserve it.
I'll try to post a few pictures, but they are iPhone pictures of a red Viper, nothing you haven't seen before.
Best,
Nick
