3-4 miss shift

[KenH]

I know this has been discussed before, but I am wondering if anyone has actually damaged their motor when accidentally hitting 2nd instead of 4th on an upshift. I recently did that at speed and now I am convinced my engine has more vibration to it, especially at certain RPMs. I also notice some interior vibration noise that I didn't notice before. I could see an over-rev floating a valve, but I don't know what could happen to cause a vibration unless a rod or crank was bent, but that seems doubtful. Other than that, the engine seems to be running fine.

Someone please tell me that I am just being paranoid and everything will be OK. Does the warranty cover driver error?

 

[motor602]

not to freak you out, but i did that once, and ever since then, im pretty sure that was the cause, but my shifts into second are so horrible, they are so notchy and require the right amount of muscle and finesse to get it in without feeling that grinding sensation.

 

[jimandela]

Ken,
my yellow brother,
I am sorry to hear about the mishap.
but yes it should be warranty covered!!!
you were driving a stickshift car and yes mis shifts
happen. and the motor should handle the rare error.

so I would let a good vipertech decide if your motor is
having a problem. Have a beer and try not to worry about till
the tech looks it over first
best wishes
JIM

 

[jimandela]

Dr E,
Sweet car!!

nice color too

JIM

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

I did it two times! So I got the Ripper and MGW knob now and the problem is solved. The stock shifter and the know *****. When you are racing it is very easy to put it 2nd insted of 4th.

 

[KenH]

Jim,

BEER! I should have thought about that myself. Helped most of my other life problems

Actually I heard there is a little used yellow '01 in NY that I could probably swap the motor with....

As for the rest of you, you're sucking at lifting my spirits! I took it out tonight and ran it through the gears. I didn't notice anthing unusual at the upper end. I mostly notice it when accelerating at lower speeds. I would think most major engine problems (i.e. bent rod) would become more noticable at the upper end. If I took it into my Viper tech, I think he would just look at me funny as it isn't really gross, just more noticable then it was before the incident. Is there any reasonable way to diagnose something like this if I did take it in?

--- Ken

 

[KenH]

ElDiablo,
Do you actually find the shorter shifter to help hit the right gear? Seems like it would actually make it harder, but I'm willing to try anything. This whole thing has me a little unnerved.

--- Ken

 

[VardaMan]

When it happened to me a few months ago, I was at a high RPM in 3rd. When I hit 2nd instead of 4th, the motor shut down instantly due to the over rev situation for 2nd gear. I quickly
pushed down the clutch pedal & shifted into 4th. There was a significant clutch odor for the next several miles.
I have not noticed any motor or drivetrain problems since.
Did your rev limiter shut down your motor?
If not, it may not be functioning.

 

[jimandela]

ken,
you were using the baseball on the hockeystick
shift knob that came with the car?????
first off , did you get your self a beer yet?
make that a shot and a beer this is your YELL OH car!!

i use mgw short ripper shift knob... knock on a 03

never messed up yet. wonderful shift feel.
anyhow.

no you can not have my motor

but dont let them take if they have to until winter break
and then make sure they flatbed your baby home to be waxed and watched over for the time it takes to get you a new one.
and while they will be installing a new motor may as well have them then throw on the roe sc

keep me posted
your yellow brother,
JIM

 

[jimandela]

Ken,
cant blame them on missing the BEER advice
they are not in the the yellow club.

JIM

 

[KenH]

VardaMan,
I know my rev limiter works as I hit it when accelerating once

This happened so quick, I'm not sure what went on. I was running pretty fast in 3rd when I made the shift. I did not see the tach reading, but about the time I realized my mistake as the engine was quickly rev'ing there was a loud bang just before I got the clutch back in. Couldn't tell where it came from. At first I thought it was the rear-end as it seemed to come from behind me. After I gingerly let the clutch back out everything seemed to be working OK. I figured the bang was a backfire of sorts when the fuel was shutdown by the rev limiter. There was no clutch smell, so I don't think it was acting to absorb the shock (unfortunately). That same day, I convinced myself that there was no difference in the way the car felt. The next day I was thinking there was a little difference and today it seemed more obvious to me. Not sure I even want to drive it tomorrow.

For those with the short shifters. I understand the logic that they shorten the shifting throw and thus speed of the shift, but the shorter shaft would seem to me like it would reduce the 'feel' of finding the right gear. If I'm wrong, that'll be my next mod.

Jim, I was out of beer, so I settled for one of the wife's Smirnoff Ice. Seemed to about do the trick

I'm now off to find that bottle of *** I have around here somewhere....

--- Ken

 

[Snake Bitten]

Dunno how I shifted with the stocker "truck" shifter! Call George at MGW...

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[joe117]

I don't know if you hurt anything by going to second instead of fourth but I do know that the rev limiter wouldn't have helped you. It simply shuts off the engine. It will not prevent the gears from spinning the engine way past the redline. If it was mine, I would drive it the way it is for lots of miles and see if it gets worse. If you bent a rod, you didn't bend it much and the whole engine would have to come apart to check it. I would think that some kind of valve train damage would be the more likely result of over speed. The valve train damage might be hard to detect without some careful measurements. If the car is under warranty just run it. If anything is wrong it will probably get worse.

 

[jkracer9]

Ouch, I know the feeling. I have started turning my hand at a different angle to shift from 2nd to 3rd and then place my hand to an outer direction to go from 3rd to 4th and that seems to help/work. I was told that SVCI racing (I think that is the name, a Viper club member also an article about their car in the Viper mag.) has a great shifter. I was told that the shift works with a more positive shift/stroke. Has any other members used the SVCI or SVSI shifter? What one seems to be the best for drag racing?

 

[RedGTS]

I agree with Rohn, turning your hand with your thumb down and palm toward the passenger side on the 3-4 shift helps a lot. The basic problem, as I understand it, is that there is a natural tendency with your hand in the "normal" position to pull at least slightly toward you as you pull the lever back, which is not a problem on 1-2 but is a big problem on 3-4 because these trannies have a very weak spring that would otherwise be helping keep the lever toward the middle (that's why the shifter centers itself in neutral). Someone makes a stronger spring to replace the stock one, so that it takes more effort to pull the lever back over into the 1-2 line, and I've heard it really helps as well.

Ronnie

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joe117:
I don't know if you hurt anything by going to second instead of fourth but I do know that the rev limiter wouldn't have helped you. It simply shuts off the engine. It will not prevent the gears from spinning the engine way past the redline.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly! The rev limiter would cut the fuel, but not the revs.

1 of 3 things happened:

A) You overreved, and the tires slipped and skidded and saved you before you damaged the valvetrain or rods.

B) The clutch was the weak link (usually higher miles) and it slipped and saved you. Or, both tires AND clutch slipped.

C) You bent something. Post-event vibration is troublesome.

Start with the easiest/cheapest and examine re-torque the motor mounts. (If they were loose, they CONTRIBUTED to the problem!)

Drain the oil and look for "stuff" Not likley, but comforting.

Don't Assume That Driver Error will be covered under warranty! It "probably" would (I know your dealer) and "stuff happens"
I would keep the story VAGUE at many dealers.

 

[KenH]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I've decided today that the most noticeable effect is that at lower RPMs/speeds I notice an obvious buzz feel through the throttle peddle that wasn't here before and sometimes I hear that being translated into the interior buzzing(vibrating)as well.

For now, I'll drive it and see if it gets worse. I'm about due for an oil change anyway, so I'll take JonB's suggestion to drain the oil and look for anything concerning as well as check the motor mounts. Would pulling the plugs possibly tell me anything?

Thanks,
Ken (Vague is my middle name) Hahn

 

[Jerry Scott[CO]]

Bob Woodhouse sells a modified stock shifter mechanism that helps prevent this problem. It's made by Kip Partridge and adds spring rate to the left gate so that it is harder to do an errant 3 to 2 shift. I have it in my car and it has eliminated the problem. Many of the aftermarket shifters have very weak springs and make the problem even worse than the stock shifter. It becomes more likely to happen on the track than on the street, due to the number of times that you run up the engine to red line and shift. I have a picture of the modification; if anyone wants it I'll e-mail it.
Jerry Scott

 

[HP]

Since, there has been a few posts on the missed shift(over-rev),
I was wandering what safe guards are built into the oil pan
to handle this negative-G effect. Is there a chance of uncovering the oil pickup tube? Has a bearing problem ever been attributed to this error?

 

[joe117]

I wouldn't think that the unwanted shift to second would cause any more deceleration than hard braking. It would be of much shorter duration too. I don't know, it just seems that way to me.
I've been thinking a little more about what could have been damaged by an over speed like this. If you have cast pistons, you might have lost a piece of a piston skirt. That would cause some vibration. Since it would be non magnetic, a big piece of it wouldn't be stuck to a magnetic pan plug and it may or may not come out with the oil. I'm thinking that a large piece probably wouldn't make it all the way to the pan without getting hit by the crank. you might get some aluminum chips in the pan that would be too big for the oil intake strainer. You need to catch the old oil and filter it somehow so you can see what's in there.
Forged pistons would be much less likely to break at high rpm.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Time to check rocker arms, etc.

 

[weed43]

Ken, I agree with every thing JohnB has said to check and he also explaned what happens when you miss a gear HE is correct, as far as the warranty goes these people are aware that normal driving does not create this kind of problem at mid range rpm. One stept father you could start the engine and pull one plug wire at a time, the engine should slow down or have a rough idel. If you find that there is no change at all in the way the engine operates {stop engine} pull that plug check to see if it has a gap between the electrode and ground strap,if ok, do a compression check on that cylinder. Overspeed will bend a valve or **** the valve into the pistion, some times punching a hole in the piston, but if that were the case, thare would be blow by with oil coming out of the breather. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING HAVE A BEER BEFORE YOU START.

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I took Jerry's advice and had a stock shifter modified by Kip (same as Woodhouse version, but bought mine before Woodhouse carried them). Significant improvement and that, with the solid standard length shift rod from Rich D (can't remember his last name) which tightened up the mechanism, plus the MGW knob to shorten the throw, is the perfect combination for me. Combine the hardware with proper shift technic and you should virtually eliminate the dreaded 3 ~ 2 upshift.

Easily installed. You need to use a bit of foam to seal the inner boot as the solid shifter shaft has a smaller diameter. The inner boot neck is sized for the isolator diameter. Jerry has easy instructions for changing the shifter from underneath which saves you from drilling out the factory rivets which you have to do if you install from above.

The way to go......</FONT f>

 

[9 seconds]

Don't get a short throw shifter! I had trouble hitting gears with a SVS shifter and a MGW ball. I have 20 bent valves and 10 dinged pistons from a 3-2 shift. Went back to the stock shifter (as other drag racers have) but kept the MGW ball. I think the post about the Woodhouse shifter could be helpful.

Good luck!

 

[jimandela]

Ken,
how are you making out on this?
Hopefully have had some beers and ready to face the new
challenges that lie ahead.

Don't worry my yellow brother, things will work out
they always do...

Major bummer though

JIM

 

[KenH]

Update.... I dumped the oil today and there were no signs of anything odd. I also pulled all the plugs and inspected them. Everything seemed to be OK. All were burning pretty white/tan and the gaps looks about right. One had a minor chip in the insulator. I replaced them while I was at it ($11.90 - The cheapest thing I've ever bought for this car). I listened to the motor carefully and still couldn't hear any abbynormal mechanical noises. I then took it out to a closed course and ran it through it's paces. Probably my imagination, but the vibration seemed to be a little less noticeable (or I'm just getting used to it). I'm feeling a little better about the whole thing today.

I checked into the Woodhouse shifter. It looks like it would definitely help this problem. If it looks like something I can install myself, it'll be my next upgrade. I have practiced the thumb down 3-4 shift technique and I think it does help to keep from pulling the shifter in towards my body, but I tend to forget to use it. My plan for now is to just continue to drive it and see if anything gets worse.

If anyone has experienced a bent valve, what were the symptoms?

Don't worry Jim, I have a beer in hand as I write this. I just need to modify my rule of not drinking if I'm going to be driving the Viper

Thanks for everyones input and support.
-- Ken

 

[weed43]

KEN, SOME OF THE SYMPTONS WOULD BE ROUGHT IDEL, POPING BACK THROUGH THE INTAKE UNDER ACCELELERATION, IF IT WOULD BE A EXHAUST VALVE, A LISP IN THE SOUND OF THE EXHAUST. ALSO YOU CAN HOLD YOUR HAND TWO TO THREE INCHES AWAY FROM THE EXHAUST AND IF YOU FEEL PUFFING GOING ON EXHAUST VALVE NOT SEATING, IT IS DOUGHFULL THAT YOU BENT A ROD OR SPUN A BEARING. I WOULD BE LOOKING AT THE HALF SHAVES AND DRIVE SHAFT AND MOTOR MOUNTS.

 

[joe117]

This is your brain on......

 

[weed43]

JOE II7, PLEASE EXPLAIN
,(THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON) WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Ueligger:
Don't get a short throw shifter! I had trouble hitting gears with a SVS shifter and a MGW ball. I have 20 bent valves and 10 dinged pistons from a 3-2 shift. Went back to the stock shifter (as other drag racers have) but kept the MGW ball. I think the post about the Woodhouse shifter could be helpful.

Good luck!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Steve is right on this one. The guys I know that are running seriously fast times are either using the stock shifter or the stock knob on an aftermarket shifter.

I had the stock knob atop a B&M ripper. It was much easier than the MGW+B&M combo, which was way too short to get any leverage. Also remember the shorter the shifter the less you move it left to right when you go from 2 to 3 and from 4 to 5, so there is *more* chance of missing a shift.