6-points vs 5-points PSA

Chuck 98 RT/10

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More is not always better. In this article a rally navigator suffered severe lacerations on both sides of his ******* due to the 6-point harness resulting in testicular herniation. I haven't heard of any similar injuries with 5-points but even if there were the object of the submarine belt is to hold the lap belt in place, it doesn't need two straps to do that.


We suggest that the mechanism of injury in this
case of the testicular herniation involved a deceleration
force which caused traumatic compression
of the ****** against the ***** bone, combined with a
degloving injury to the scrotal skin due to the
arrangement of the crotch straps of the harness.
Whilst the harness used here spared the occupant
more severe injuries, it is of concern that this type
of injury occurred despite the harness and the three
layer suit. The minimum safety standard for harnesses
in cross country racing is two shoulder straps
and one lap belt,
1 although most drivers prefer a
minimum of a four point harness involving straps
coming over either shoulder and up from the waist
to join in a central quick-release coupling. In this
case a six point harness was used: a greater number
of points of harness contact should equate with
greater restraint. The added crotch strap, fixed at
points under the seat, connects to the coupling at a
single point (see
Figs. 3 and 4). The crotch strap has
the advantage of preventing the occupant sliding
under the belt (‘submarining’) and spreads the force
of impact more evenly over the body in the event of

a crash.


WARNING Gruesome pics.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...70c5948b24a9d5b23e21239ef7d&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Somewhere the SAE has looked into this because as you say, the 5th and/or 6th belts are to keep the lap belt on the hip bones and not allow the lap belt to restrain the driver via the soft stomach tissue. However, when the drivers assume more of a laydown position (IRL, F1) this becomes more difficult and is one reason for fitted seats and under-thigh support. I think most seatbelt installation instructions suggest an upright position for the driver.
 
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I always thought a 6 point in a sedan was either overkill or wrong as they were designed originally as stated above for the formula style cars where you are less prone in driving position. I have always had 5 points and will definitely stick with them now. OUCH!
 

ViperGeorge

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There was another thread on the topic of 6 vs. 5 points. I know JonB at Partsrack and Cory at Snakeoyl recommend 6s. JonB was pretty adament about it. None the less I purchased a new set of 5s and after seeing these pics I'm glad I did. I had to special order them. The pics are disgusting and almost caused me to lose my breakfast. Sure hope they could put that guy's nuts back in the can.
 

Catwood

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I will not look...I will not look.....I won't look.......no....don't look.....
 

ViperTony

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Not looking at the pics. I always assumed that the 5 point would cause more crotch damage than the 6 pts because of that single belt coming up threw, or over, the front seat. It's like...right there.
 

NI-KA

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I was told that the 6-pt. Team Tech is what the factory installs and it is what I had installed in my Coupe.

Does any one else have different information?

Is the Team Tech 6-pt installed in the Competition Coupe?

Is it installed in the ACR?
 

AZTVR

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Only the GenII ACRs came with a racing harness.

Which was a 5-point?

Correct, Gen II ACR OEM = 5-point harness (plus 3-point DOT belts)

So, a question to the 6-point harness users: If you tighten the belts tightly and position them and any precious soft tissue carefully, would you think that this type of injury could happen?

The article suggested that the harness may not have been snugged up tightly, and I could see that it would loosen up over time in rally racing. We usually are encountering a fairly short exposure, and things should stay in place until the moment of impact. I have no idea whether the forces of impact are such that it would change where the body would impact the belts, though.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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One would think that having the soft tissues protruding between the #5 and #6 harness straps, and appropriate slack in the clothing (since it was a rub on the fabric that caused the skin rupture) a male driver should be fine. Or wear a cup.

Note to self: Million dollar idea- develop a "driving cup" for protecting male soft tissue when using 6-pt harness. Use additional straps to attach cup to torso so driver can claim "they measured me and I had to use a 10-pt system".

BTW, if the perpendicular impact really was 60MPH, then this fellow is lucky to be alive at all. Even the dramatic Indy car wrecks "at 200 MPH" are really only ~60 MPH impacts; the wings and skidding slow them down before they hit and then they hit the wall at an angle.
 

NI-KA

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My experience is limited so take my opinion accordingly. I have the Team Tech. 6-point Harness.

The arrangment of the lower two straps: They extend from the left and right sides, routed under the thigh to a triangularly shaped pad at the crotch area. (I am now curious to know exactly where Team Tech. recommends this pad to be located !)

Currently, I place the pad above all the important parts at the lower abdomen. Unless I were to submarine I would think that the ******* shouldn't see undue pressure.

Any experts out there?



My feeling is that if properly arranged this would/should not be a problem but I would like to know what an expert has to say
 

JonB

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This is a HUGE LEAP to downplay the well known and documented benefits of a 6pt due to one case study of a freak accident to a passenger in a non-Viper rallye car ! Does anyone believe this would be a recurring event? A lot of stars had to misalign to cause this gruesome injury....but maybe he would be DEAD without a 6pt ? Or injured worse with 5pt?

This injury was almost certainly NOT a Pelvic-Padded, double-adjustable Team Tech, as we recommend and sell. SRT too. {Don't save $100 with an unpadded harness.}

If you adjust your belts improperly, they can do damage. TeamTech harnesses offer an optional double-adjust feature that we sell at cost because we so strongly believe in it. Much easier to tweak-adjust comfortably and correctly.

Anyone can buy a basic, unpadded harness as shown, that absorbs no deceleration energy....leaving only clothing, soft tissue and bones to decelerate your body. Or adjust them too loosely and hit the bare webbing with resulting damage. We have ZERO accident details, but I believe that if this driver had a 5-pt, his ****** and middle-member might have been injured even more.

The owner of TeamTech is a past SFI testing engineer. He has done rocket-sled decelaration testing with his TeamTech harnesses. He serves on a couple of Automotive safety boards at industry and university level...I have solicited his expert comment. Stay Tuned.

PS LATE EDIT: Our 6pt belt is only $20 more than a 5pt...again we sell the option below our incremental cost for it! So "paying less" is not a reason to chose a less-safe 5pt.
 
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isanti

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^^^^ Wheeeeew. The car I just purchassed has the Team Tech 6 point with the pad (purchassed from JonB). Haven't wore it yet but now I feel a little more confident.
 

steve911

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I have the team Techs in my Gen 3 (6 point). When I first installed them, I initially adjusted them with the "V" of the crotch strap very close to the mother lode. I did a couple of high speed twisty auto crosses and found out very early from the side to side motion that the lap and crotch belts were adjusted too low. I re-looked at the instructions, readjusted and now I am confident I wont have the same problem.

On another note, I was always told if you have a 5 point harness, the crotch strap needs to be as vertical as possible and that is why the racing seats have the slot cut into them in the seat base so that the crotch strap can come up through. On a street car seat, the strap goes out horizontally a ways before going down to the floor. This will allow "some" submarining before being "caught" by the crotch strap. The amount will vary depending on the person and the seat design.

Additionally, There is also seat crush or deformity to worry about during an impact with the crotch strap. What I mean is a person will have the harness adjusted tight statically. In a collision or wreck the seat will deform around the front edge where the crotch strap makes the bend from horizontal to vertical because of the significant forces exerted during a crash.

I have seen this on several occasions when I worked racing events as a paramedic. Again I want to stress these were on OEM seats and not purpose built racing seats.

Thanks for listening.
 
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Chuck 98 RT/10

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Does anyone believe this would be a recurring event? A lot of stars had to misalign to cause this gruesome injury....but maybe he would be DEAD without a 6pt ? Or injured worse with 5pt?

With all due respect Jon...

For the overly safety conscious folks it doesn't matter how often the stars align, it only has to happen once.

I've disagreed with the no-expense-too-great-for-safety society we live in because I need to see cold hard evidence before I jump on a bandwagon. This particular case is a good example of why not to use 6-points. If there is an equally gruesome example of why not to use 5-points I'm willing to listen. "Because so and so said so" isn't good enough for me.
 

JonB

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Reply from TEAM TECH:

Jon,

This is a very extreme case. I have only heard of it happening one other time in history, however it was because of a manufacturer of a head and neck device that utilizes straps that travel back-to-front between the legs and attach at the buckle; but this is only heresay......

It has been proven test after test that an occupant of a 6pt passive restraint has an immense increased survivability and reduce personal injury that that of a person using a 5pt harness. It is unconceivable to understand that the injuries in this article where sustained by a properly installed 6pt harness. In that I mean a 6 point properly installed will separate at the legs rearward over the sides of the seat bottom, seat bottom at the seat back or have separate exit slots fabricated in the seat bottom such that the straps leave the thighs at a 30 deg. angle then exit through the seat to a rigid frame member. It is my opinion that this occupant most likely had a 6pt mounted straight down through the seat bottom as though it where a 5pt to a common point under the seat bottom. This person's 6pt was also likely to have had only one common to the two straps under the buckle and not like that at shown in the article figures provided.

TEAMTECH's ACR and SRT harnesses were specially designed as a joint venture by Dodge Viper engineers and TEAMTECH. Our special 6/7 point strap creates just the right amount of leg separation to provide comfort without jeopardizing safety of the "private areas" of the occupant. As a both a designer of premium seatbelts and user, I designed TEAMTECH harnesses such that the more rapidly a harness can retain the pelvic region, the lower the chest compression caused by the chest pressing against the shoulder harness, then the lower the chest compression, and the lower the head/next tension will be.

So as one can see there is an immense amount of thought, prototyping, testing and evaluation that must be done in passive restraint design.

As you study all of TEAMTECH competition you will quickly see why TEAMTECH is among the best in the world.

Respectfully Submitted,

Curt L. Tucker
President, AT, BS-NMU
TEAMTECH Motorsports Safety, Inc.




JonB's PS: -------------------------------------- There is no such thing as 'overly safety conscious' in a racing situatiion. The 6-pt is undisputedly better at holding a driver in the seat, for better driver control. SCCA changed their racing GCRs a while back to require 6pts or better, for good reason.

At any shopping mall you can survey folks who say that seatbelts can trap you, or drown you, or break your neck. In rare, freak circumstances this may be true. But are seatbelts safer than no setbelts? Are 3-points safer than 2?
 
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JonB

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Can somebody post a picture of the "pad" in use with a 6-pt? Don't get too personal, but I'm curious how it is adjusted.

The rotary cam-lock should be adjusted to ride low and tight on your hip-pelvic bones,
below your belly-button and above the groin.

The Team Tech Pelvic pad is a basic shield-triangle, and is stitched / velcroed to the underside of the rotary and the sub belts. The low-recoil energy pad touches your clothing, not the buckle or harnesss webbing.

One point of the triangle points downward and covers your groin. The other 2 points are directed toward your pelvic bones, and the lap-belts ride atop them. Again, no 'harness rash' from nylon webbing sawing at your body in an event or accident.

TeamTech Motorsports - Racing Harness - Energy Pads

You can see more photos at TeamTech Motorsports
 
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