650 NA RWHP
- Thread starter HLN A55
- Start date
viper067
Enthusiast
I was planning on running Gen 2 injectors, but it seems I'll be bumping up on that wall as well .... what are you using fe4snake as your setup seems fairly similar with the exception of the intake and TB's?
Toma
Viper Owner
Just an FYI, a TRUE 650 rwhp in a 3500 pound car WILL run 143+ mph in the quarter.
Toma
Viper Owner
Gen 2's are what? 29#/hr?
Only good to ~630 engine HP at 100%
Only good to ~630 engine HP at 100%
Is that for stock fuel system?
HLN A55
Viper Owner
We're doing 11.5:1 for my build.
As for which injectors-I have no idea. I'll have to find out.
From what i've been told by ART (who will be doing the install), all I need is a few extra pumps in the tank-the rest of the fuel system should be good.
Well, I have the stock Gen II injectors and pump with a split second and a DLM tune. Now with that particular build I felt the engine was not properly tune for closed loop operation and I had to play with the fuel map on my own to get it to drive fairly well. But I think the injectors where maxing out for the most.
Now I did a new build that I spent the last year on for a complete engine and tranny build.
- New GTR ported heads
- New cylinder bore (4.02)
- Billet Mains
- Forged H Beam rods
- New Forged pistons with a 12:1 compression
- New Coated Bearings
- New Twin Clutch
- New Heavy Duty Syncros & Gears
FastMatt
Enthusiast
Mine is with the Stock bottom end even. Striker heads shaved another 0.070" and using the Thinner "SRT" head gasket.
britospeed
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Blitz offers larger size side feed injectors. I'd also recommend use a SCT to tune.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Please tell me that you are not driving the car around like this...
This looks like a very very expensive build and you are going to blow it all up with no fuel system, no engine management, and especially with injectors that are maxed at 500rwhp.
You can use Subaru/nissan side feed injectors they will drop right in, but they are fairly expensive. It would be cheaper to buy top feed injectors and aftermarket top feed fuel rails/fittings/hose than to buy a set of good side feed injectors.
TexasTonka
Enthusiast
Grayson- Look in the classifieds, I have the last set of Styrker R heads and cam on the planet for sale. Will get you over 650hp and increase your reliability factor 100%. Also have an extra SCT brand new I am not using. Let me know and I can ship these right to you from Morys place.
I just hit 499 rwhp and 545 rwt on my gen3 with some bolt ons and a comp coupe cam and sct tune. Trust me 500 rwhp is nothing compared to the 550 rwhp gen4's/550 rwhp ZR1's/500 plus rwhp gallardos ect. they are pumping out from the factory today.
You need 550 plus rwhp to be competitive.
600 plus really to have a fast ride in 2011
viper067
Enthusiast
I'll agree with you there Twister, but I'm a road course type and in a Gen 1 to boot ... so the added HP is mostly wasted due to my braking not to mention my suspension. On the strip, those things wouldn't matter.
I'm done with performance after this build, then I'll have to start investigating what I can do for braking ... already have Tom's brake upgrade and it is a great improvement over stock
I'm done with performance after this build, then I'll have to start investigating what I can do for braking ... already have Tom's brake upgrade and it is a great improvement over stock
Just an FYI, a TRUE 650 rwhp in a 3500 pound car WILL run 143+ mph in the quarter.
That doesn't work on this forum. There are way too many cars with good drivers with that hp not getting close to 143. If I am wrong i will stand corrected.
For this power level you will need the right combination of parts and a proper calibration. Often times these type of builds get over-fueled, wash out the rings and burn oil. A proper tune is critical.
Toma
Viper Owner
I've never actually weighed a Viper...
are they much heavier than 3500 pounds with Driver?
So what do these 650 rwhp Vipers run? 137 mph?
There are much easier and less costly ways to make 650 RWHP in a Viper than trying to do it NA.
If the purpose is drags, nitrous is the best value per incremental HP and you don't worry about heat soak. Next is forced induction, which is fine for the strip but limiting on road courses due to potential heat soak issues.
Why spend a ton of money on a 620-650 RWHP motor only to get toasted by the first person who comes along with a TT and 800+. Why not spend half as much (or less) and "limp by" with 570-610?
Maybe there's a reason to incur the cost for those last few NA ponies, but I'm not seein' it.
If the purpose is drags, nitrous is the best value per incremental HP and you don't worry about heat soak. Next is forced induction, which is fine for the strip but limiting on road courses due to potential heat soak issues.
Why spend a ton of money on a 620-650 RWHP motor only to get toasted by the first person who comes along with a TT and 800+. Why not spend half as much (or less) and "limp by" with 570-610?
Maybe there's a reason to incur the cost for those last few NA ponies, but I'm not seein' it.
HLN A55
Viper Owner
Drumr-I completely agree with you. After going through this process twice now, it's scary to think that my motor has just about the same amount of money in it as I do in the initial purchase price of the car. Unfortunately, several years ago, the balancer pulley spun which required us to fix the crank. At that time, I got the wild hair to be different then all my other buddies and go NA. If I could change it all, I would have just fixed the crank, maybe put in some forged pistons, and went with a Roe. Water under the bridge at this point though.
Dan-ART will be doing the install and tuning it with the SCT.
Kurt-You know I want the heads! However, at this point, I just can't justify spending the extra money.
Dan-ART will be doing the install and tuning it with the SCT.
Kurt-You know I want the heads! However, at this point, I just can't justify spending the extra money.
LS6 Molester
Viper Owner
I modeled my previous project on a car that was said to have 720rwhp na built by exotic engine development. It was a built gtsr block with a dry sump, custom destroked billet crank, strikers and the gtsr intake plus other little things. The car could easily rev over 8k and was my inspiration for a standing mile beast, with the addition of turbos of course. Never really verified the HP claim but it sounded possible with the high compression it had.
Something like this would cost about 40k 4 years ago if I remember correctly.
Something like this would cost about 40k 4 years ago if I remember correctly.
I started with a 12K mile 2000 GTS (gray/silver FTW) that had only high flow cats and a cat back. I got a baseline dyno number. I then made the following mods (I did all the wrenching):
Greg Good heads (10.5:1 compression)
25 mil headgasket
Greg Good spec'd cam (232/236 not too crazy)- i indexed it.
1.7 RRs,
70mm TBs
Ported intake
Pinned SFI spec Damper
Belanger headers
AB's wires
High flow air filters
SCT tune by DC
On the same dyno (4 mos later in similar weather) my car gained exactly 150 rwhp. The absolute number is unimportant (my final number was 540 rwhp if you must know)as every dyno reads differently.
I see folks talk about 600 and 650 NA hp. If that means adding 200-250 rwhp, well - i think you will have to do a lot more than I did to get there. If all you want is a big number - find a "friendly" dyno... there are plenty of them out there.
I haven't made many passes with the car yet, but I'm trapping right at 130 mph in poor Oklahoma air. Even though I have a lightened valve assembly and better heads/cam, my hp peaks at about 5600-5700 rpm.
Hope this info helps
There are a whole bunch of Roe and Paxton cars at or about 650, poll those cars. Isn't the ZR1, 650 hp, therefore, about 575 rwhp, I believe they only turn 129-131 and they are lighter than the typ Gen 2. The point is another 75 hp is not going to get you up to 143.
Here is the another mph calculator, my guess is that the true mph is between this one and yours.
MPH = (cube root of (hp/weight)) x 234.
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Russ M
Enthusiast
Just an FYI, a TRUE 650 rwhp in a 3500 pound car WILL run 143+ mph in the quarter.
Even a car with perfect traction is going to have a hard time achieving this, you will need to be around 700rwhp and have traction through all the gears to get to 143.
Knowing that, a street car with far less then perfect traction is going to be 135 @ 650rwhp and 3500lb's.
Toma
Viper Owner
Yeah, I use that formula as well, but it's a tough one since no one ever actually engine dynos their car. Patrick Hale developed that one in the early 80's using linear regression analysis from quarter mile performance and peak engine power of the cars in that day. Works pretty well if you know your actual peak engine hp.
Toma
Viper Owner
So what's the Viper consensus?
3500 pounds, 650 rwhp? 135 on street tires, 137 on slicks?
Edit.... so what does a Gen 1 Viper weight? Gen 2? Gen 3? Actual weight?
Good questions
gen1 is 3250 pounds and trapps 111-114 mph with 350 rwhp
gen2 is 3390 pounds for the rt10 and 3440 for the gts and traps 117-120 mph with 400 rwhp
gen 3 is 3380 pounds for the vert and 3420 pounds for the coupe and trap 120-123 mph with 445 rwhp
gen4 is 3450 pounds for the vert or coupe and trap 127-130 mph with 540 rwhp
zr1 is 3350 pounds and traps 128-131 mph with 545 rwhp
600 rwhp on a 3400 pound viper will get you in the 135 mph range.
youll need 700 rwhp to hit 143 mph in the quarter
gen1 is 3250 pounds and trapps 111-114 mph with 350 rwhp
gen2 is 3390 pounds for the rt10 and 3440 for the gts and traps 117-120 mph with 400 rwhp
gen 3 is 3380 pounds for the vert and 3420 pounds for the coupe and trap 120-123 mph with 445 rwhp
gen4 is 3450 pounds for the vert or coupe and trap 127-130 mph with 540 rwhp
zr1 is 3350 pounds and traps 128-131 mph with 545 rwhp
600 rwhp on a 3400 pound viper will get you in the 135 mph range.
youll need 700 rwhp to hit 143 mph in the quarter
Viper Grenade
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Why would 650rwhp be too high? You just need to add solid roller cam (big one) and a dry sump, billet mains and rev to 7000rpm.
Chevy engines that run ths setup on 11:1 with about 500ci on pump make about 850bhp. I don't see why a Viper engine couldn't do the same.
Chevy engines that run ths setup on 11:1 with about 500ci on pump make about 850bhp. I don't see why a Viper engine couldn't do the same.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Its all about head flow, stock viper heads even when ported perfectly wont be able to achieve that. Now if you get a set of Stryker heads and stuff it could be done with enough $$$.
Far as your Chevy motor comparison goes, there is no factory casting Chevy motor that will do even close to that NA. Even the LS7 seems to be about maxed at low 600rwhp range, and you are talking very very high compression motors. To achieve what you are claiming it would take an aftermarket block/heads/etc/etc.
Viper Grenade
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I know of a few N/A builds with 11.5:1 on 93 pump.
