A controversial topic - chime in, we need some spice...

[phiebert]

I recently had the gears changed on my '94 RT/10. A number of people posting on that topic and other topics I've seen in the past seem to have serious concerns about getting work done on their Vipers by anyone but a Vipertech.

Here's my two cents to start the topic.

I've had NOS installed. Got it done by a shop that has installed lots of Nitrous systems. They did a fine job and are not Vipertech...'cause what Viper tech knows much about NOS?

Bad example, OK...

I just had my 3.07 rear end changed to 3.55. Got it done by transmission specialists. Guys that do drag cars all the time. They know the Dana rear end better than any Viper tech I'll bet. As soon as they saw my kit from Partsrack they started talking about all the cars that had the same or similar rear ends that they had done. They installed it, did a great job and in less time than other techs I've heard about doing the job. I'll bet they've done a lot more Dana rear ends than your average Viper tech.

I also had my exhaust done. Just took it to a muffler shop with the cats and mufflers I wanted and presto, another job done well at a reasonable price. OK, so its an exhaust, but...

I'm thinking about having my head gasket replaced and you guessed it, I likely will get it done by someone who does that kind of work a lot, and it likely won't be a Viper tech.

So if all this means that when I decide to sell my car (which I hope I never have to do) no one wants to buy it, oh well.

In fact, I made my own smooth tubes from marine hosing, a whopping cost of $3 CDN for that mod. That's about 25 cents US!

But seriously, let's hear everyone's opinions on what makes the Viper so different from any other car that makes it require the 'tech' label to work on it. With all due respect to the worlds greatest car, it is still a basic push rod engine based on what appears to be the old hemi engines. Sure they added a couple cylinders, but thats about it. Its not a complicated engine relative to something like the endlessly variable timing engines in a lot of Euro or Japanese cars these days. So don't just say its complicated and requires a tech because the car cost more than a Mustang, or that it has two more cylinders than a Vette. What's the real reason why some people are so paranoid about working on the car themselves or having someone that is not a Viper tech work on it?

This is my first shot at starting a war, so sorry if it's a bit feeble!

 

[Sniper]

I totally agree!!!

The only problem is, there is nobody in my town that will even touch my car. Even Qwik Lube turned me down for an oil change! Plus, too, I've still got a warranty so I've got to take it somewhere that'll do warranty work when it needs it.

I also think alot of people that are selling Viper parts are reeming people with their prices. (But there's no volume in Vipers so price has to make up for it.)-My @ss!!!

 

[Ulysses]

Interesting.

This is my take...

A mechanic who works on gears is a specialist at it. The mechanic sees diffs of all sorts all day. The Viper having a common diff and common gears is no problem.

A mechanic who works on exhausts is a specialist at it. Tubing is tubing. Working with a Viper exhaust will be no problem.

A Viper mechanic may or may not be familiar with exhaust welding and gear swaps because they probably don't see a whole lot of that kind of work. Viper mechanics, however, are very familiar (or rather should be) with debugging, taking apart and putting together the top end of a Viper engine.

A local mechanic who works on engines and a Viper mechanic are in the same field. They both understand the basics of an engine and it's internals, but the local mechanic may have seen a Viper very few times or not at all. The Viper mechanic will be a specialist at tearing it apart and putting it back together and know what are the ins and outs, will probably be familiar with what bolt goes where and will probably know what are the torque specs. The Viper mechanic will (should) get it out faster with less chance of connecting something up wrong or getting hung up. Plus, should something break during the procedure, or should the Viper mechanic find something that needs replacement, more than likely (well.. almost more than likely) he will have the part on hand or know where to get it. A Viper mechanic will also have all the Viper manuals available, where the local mechanic probably would not.

Well... I tried.

 

[Gerald]

Turning wrenches is no big deal. A back yard mechanic can do that on a viper... (adding headers, mufflers, deleting mufflers, taking on/off heads, etc)

To tune a viper and diagnose a Viper are two totally different thingamabopers... (diagnosing high idle and fixing, ECU proglem, a/f problems, warning lights,etc)


Gerald

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Any and all WARRANTY WORK, should be done by cetified Viper Techs, but after that, anyone who is capable of doing it should be able too.

 

[luc]

Steve,

After the thread (that was removed at the request of the author) about Viper Techs complaining that DC DO NOT allow enough time on warranty work to do it correctly,I am not do sure about your statment.
As a matter of fact I had some warranty work done by a Dodge/viper tech and their work was a piece of crap,I then had some other work done by a JEEP DEALER that I know for a long time,and they did a great job,even if it was the 1st Viper that they worked on.

DC had no problem with them doing the work.($8K worth of it)


Doesn't matter if the mechanic that work on your car is a Viper Tech or a Isuzu Mechanic,as long that he is good.

Luc.

 

[Jay Herbert]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luc:

Steve,

After the thread (that was removed at the request of the author) about Viper Techs complaining that DC DO NOT allow enough time on warranty work to do it correctly,I am not do sure about your statement.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think the point here was not that the Viper techs were not allowed enough time to do the work...... but they are being paid by the book times. I had some work done on my first Viper by a Viper Tech.... it took him 6 hours, the "book" had 2.3 hours, he (or the dealer) got paid for 2.3 hours..... So either the dealer or teh tech "looses" depending on how the tech is being paid (hourly or by the book)

I have had things go the other way (not on the Viper) where a job showed five hours in the "book" and I'd get a call an hour after the job was done to come get the car.... the bill, paid only two hours after dropping the car off, charged me for five hours labor.

Back "On" the topic, many things on a Viper are VERY "normal", swapping the rear gears is one that any quality rear-end/racing specialist should have no problem doing, just get high quality parts that are ground "right". Same can be said for exhaust, headers, brakes, even bolt ons like 1.7 roller rockers.

 

[King GTS]

I'm wit Ulysses.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Rear End, Tranny, Exhaust (without Oxygen sensors), can be done by skilled specialist.

Regarding NOS, Good Luck! Installation no problem, engine life is another question! Simple question, was the fuel air mixture verified on a dyno? You may be lucky or unlucky? only time will tell.

No question a good service group is very important. In the bay area we are very lucky we have at least 3 choices, Stevens Creek Dodge, Ted May's shop, and APEX motor sports. All provide good service. Dan Cragin in Southern Calif. also provides great service.

 

[luc]

Jay,

"...I think that the point here was not that the Viper techs were not allowed enough time to do the work.."

"...it took him 6 hours,the "book" had 2.3 hours, he (or the dealer) got paid for 2.3 hours..."

And you call your example a rebuttal to my point about DC not allowing enough time to do the job?????.

The mechanic (or the dealer) worked for free for 3.7 hours and you expect a quality work when someone is not paid for it?

Regarding your other example.

All dealers labor charges are based on what you call the book but,here is the way it really work.

The vast majority of mechanics are hourly employees.
Let say that for a given job the book call for 5hours.
Ths service manager/dealer will tell the mechanic that if he can "beat" the book,they will split the extra profit.

In your example,the mechanic will get paid for 3.5 hours (for 2 hours real work)and the dealer will bill you for 5 hours (for only 3.5 hours paid to the mechanic)
so the dealer and the mechanic each got a 1.5 hours "bonus"
Do you think that this industry wide practice promote quality work or shortcut?
This practice is so well known by Manufacturers that usually the book will show a lower time for the same job when it's done under warranty and consequently the Manufacturer and not the customer pay for it.

Luc.

 

[luc]

Jay,

"...I think that the point here was not that the Viper techs were not allowed enough time to do the work.."

"...it took him 6 hours,the "book" had 2.3 hours, he (or the dealer) got paid for 2.3 hours..."

And you call your example a rebuttal to my point about DC not allowing enough time to do the job?????.

The mechanic (or the dealer) worked for free for 3.7 hours and you expect a quality work when someone is not paid for it?

Regarding your other example.

All dealers labor charges are based on what you call the book but,here is the way it really work.

The vast majority of mechanics are hourly employees.
Let say that for a given job the book call for 5hours.
Ths service manager/dealer will tell the mechanic that if he can "beat" the book,they will split the extra profit.

In your example,the mechanic will get paid for 3.5 hours (for 2 hours real work)and the dealer will bill you for 5 hours (for only 3.5 hours paid to the mechanic)
so the dealer and the mechanic each got a 1.5 hours "bonus"
Do you think that this industry wide practice promote quality work or shortcut?
This practice is so well known by Manufacturers that usually the book will show a lower time for the same job when it's done under warranty and consequently the Manufacturer and not the customer pay for it.

Luc.

 

[luc]

Sorry for the double post.
Luc.

 

[Steve Miehe]

Patrick:

It all boils down to trust...do you completely trust the shop doing the work and trust them with your car, and, will they do the work. If your answers are yes, then forge ahead.

The mechanic that works on my company car said he will do some work on my RT but will tell me when a project I present to him is "beyond" his expertise. He will then back off.

 

[Vip-RT10]

Heck, I changed the intake manifold gaskets on my BMW 850i, took me 12 hrs total work, but i did it and saved me tons of cash. I will be doing the head gasket seals by myself on the Viper some time soon. I did the exhaust by myself and replced the A/C system in our Suburban. It is all fine so far. If you can save $$$$ for a job, then do it. My friend Scott Schenfield installed my A/C since he had installed 3 other systems before me, and all the local Viper techs nver installed one, he saved me about 1.5 G's...

 

[phiebert]

I didn't mean to imply that I'm looking for the lowest price, just equal or better quality. I still believe that, as an example, a tranny shop that does hundreds of rear ends is going to do a better job than a Viper tech that has a 'certificate' but little real world experience.

I live near a city of around 2 million people, but I see only the occasional Viper (except for my own). I don't know how many Viper techs there are in this city but from what I can tell from the local Viper club, there aren't more than 50 to 100 Vipers. Considering how little the average Viper is driven, I'll bet your average Viper tech not only sees very few Vipers, but that when he/she does, it's for an oil change. That equates to no real world experience on most serious jobs. That's why I'd rather bring my car to specialists on the specific component and not to a generalist with little experience.

By the way, what does it take for a Neon mechanic to become a Viper tech? I'll bet it's a two hour course done by correspondence! No shot at Viper techs intended, I'm glad Dodge makes a point of denoting a special designation for people that work on Vipers, but let's face it, in most locations you can't make a living at it because there aren't enough around. So I suspect they can't make it very hard to become one or no one would do it...except to be able to tinker on a Viper, which is exactly what I want to avoid...a tinkerer!

 

[Steve Ferguson]

LUC, all I know that each and every time I HAD warranty work done that it was done to my satisfaction. I agree, there are plenty of talented people out there who can and do perform BETTER service on Viper than many Tech's do. But if your Viper is still under warranty, then it is in your best interest to find one that will perform your service at a satisfactory level. I would rather them pay for it than me.

I know for a fact that there are dealers that can not even do a Viper oil change, and that's no joke. But at least having the tech's do the work keeps your warranty in tact.