A Viper for the Ill-informed Public

[ViperInBlack]

Warfang:

I was not able to find a reference to a Danger label for the Viper. This was discussion of an FAQ section here (now implemented) and a dealership description of the car.

 

[CTViper]

Lots of interest in this Post Alice.
1) Dad buys his Kid a $85000 car. How intelligent is it to give a 17 yr old kid a car that has 500 HP and is supposed to do 190MPH.
2)I would have made sure the kid had taken a 3 day skip Barber or Others driving course, at the very least.
3) I would have rode with him afterwards and impressed upon him the dangers of driving a Viper.
4)He wouldn't be allowed to have his friends as passengers. Kids tend to show off.
5) A Lot would depend on the kids skill level and intelligence. I'm sorry but the parent is the blame.
6)I had no fear at 17! I wouldn't be here if my dad gave me one. I did 145 in a 73 vette @ 22. If it was a viper I would have seen how fast it would have gone also.
7)Unless your a geek or had your head in the sand the last 10 years you should have heard about Vipers and people crashing them on the way home from Dealers.
8)In closing one of the kids on here IM me the other day asking me how hard it is to drive a Viper. It seems a guy he has know for years is going to let him drive his Viper GTS. He then asked me where 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc was? He told me he has never driven a standard transmisson! I told him he had to learn how to use the clutch, give it gas as it was released, be able to hold it on a incline etc. I finally told him he had to learn how to drive a smaller car with a standard tranny before he should ever get into a Viper. I said your friend has to be nuts! He said he has seen guys walk into his store admiring his Snake and he has just tossed them the keys to go for a ride? So it just goes to show you there are people out there who are clueless. Could this accident have been prevented, probably not, unless the dad never bought the kid the car. He could have done the same thing in a ferrari, lambo, Aston Martin, Bently GT, Ford GT. JMO

 

[ViperInBlack]

Excellent post, Chuck. I fear that the death of the 18 year old passenger at the hands of the 17 year old Viper "owner" has been a bit of a red herring.

I would not presume to fully understand the family's decision in buying the car and/or the kid's accident while operating it. All could range from overly indulgent parents and an irresponsible child to a deeply invested father who misunderstood the car and found a (tragic outcome) way of expressing affection for his son. Again, I shall never know.

The cornerstone of the thread, however, is whether people can make an informed decision regarding the purchase of the SRT-10. Obviously, I feel that they do not have enough information. Others feel that they not only have sufficient data but that the lack of publically disseminated data adds to the mystique. The latter is not how I feel.

The result of the thread is a spin off post that will remain in the SRT-10 Forum and become a place where people can at least obtain partial data.

You mention a kid contacting you with minimal driving experience and asking how to drive a Viper. I had a similar e-mail earlier today from an incredibly nice/mature 18 year old who posed the same question.

However, this kid, by contrast, had read this thread, had some preparatory experiences, but most of all...he asked...that since he plans on taking a test drive soon, what are the major concerns he should bear in mind before taking that first drive. It was a very maturely stated inquiry.

 

[Warfang]

Warfang:

I was not able to find a reference to a Danger label for the Viper. This was discussion of an FAQ section here (now implemented) and a dealership description of the car.

The FAQ section is a great idea, but I thought this discussion started with your quote: "A beginning approach would be a factory brochure (as Harley does) which emphasizes risks and safety measures. It would not slow sales, and for the informed, could conceivably enhance them."

No mention of an FAQ until later.

I did not say that you or anyone here mentioned a Danger label. Apologies if I was misconstrued by anyone. "Danger" came from me, not anyone else. I do agree that there needs to be a way to educate the inherit risks of strapping on a street rocket. All I meant to say was that any campaign to address risks, whether it be videos, or brochures, can possibly peak the intrest of the "*******" crowd. I'd hate to see what can happen if they start buying Vipers in bulk.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Warfang:

The FAQ was an idea that emerged from the discussion.

The discussion emerged from noting interactions regarding the teen who wrecked his hours old SRT-10.

Also, note that (what we are guessing is a) new owner has wrecked his #2 Black Mamba in first gear. This is not an indictment of him (at all), but I wonder if the car was something for which he was prepared.

Not certain that the ******* crowd could ever be dissuaded by absence of information...a hockey player killed his friend in a Ferrari on City streets here last year. Did not Kelsey Grammar total his Viper? Jenna Jameson had a Viper (wondering how far those things can jump...that's a true danger).

I think, Warfang, you and I share in the desire for the Viper to be an exclusive club...but assuming that this cannot be accomplished, I would prefer that all those who buy them attempt to insure that they (driver and car) exist for years to come.

Danger is a good word.

 

[Randy]

Or you could use this approach , Quote from VIPERFREAK2:
Lessons come from experience. Give the kid a VW rabbit diesel. then a 4 cyl Toyota, then a V6 Camaro, then a Mustang GT, then a Corvette, THEN a Viper.

Or take my route - go from an RX-7, to a 176mph/10-sec-quarter sport motorcycle, then to a Viper. If you live through the motorcycle, then you are likely ready for the Viper.

And the Class-M license could work for the Viper also, for that matter.

 

[Viperfreak2]

It all comes back around to 'The Matrix'. Do we want or need machines to rule our lives? I've said it before, yes I do, with an OFF switch. Here's an interesting statement in this months Automotive Design and Production magazine:
Various studies have reinforced the benefits of ESP. DaimlerChrysler, for example, said that the standard fitment of ESP in all Mercedes cars had reduced their incidence in "driving accidents" in Germany by 42%. A driving accident is defined as one in which a driver loses control of the vehicle without other road users being involved. A NHTSA study also showed that passenger cars that had been fitted with ESP as standard equipment from 1997 to 2002 had, on average, 35% fewer driving accidents than for the same vehicle models before the ESP with the number of fatal driving accidents reduced by 30%.

It's time for the SRT-10 to have a traction / stability control standard. ON/OFF switchable, but standard.

 

[Cris]

ON/OFF switchable, but standard. But when switched OFF, make it completely OFF.

 

[Roadrunner]

The electronic nanny would unlikely have saved this teenager... The laws of physics still apply. If you are going 90mph and hit a telephone pole, ESP will not save you. If you are going 70mph and enter a sharp corner that should have been taken at 25, ESP will not save you. If you are going 120 and hit a bridge abutment, ESP will not prevent the seat belts from cutting clean through you... If you are going 140 and hit some sinusoid whoop-de-do's, ESP will not prevent the car from doing an aircraft crash landing immitation (see the Bubblegum 3000 racer footage).

If the tail is coming out a little bit, ESP may save you... If you are going fair speeds on slippery roads ESP may help keep you on the road.

But ESP / TC / other nannys will not stop a speeding mass from creaming a phone pole if the driver is going way, way, too fast. It is called being "out of control" or perhaps "reckless driving".

 

[Viperfreak2]

I have to disagree. Not with the laws of physics part, but with the ESP not being able to keep you from hitting stuff. If you have little (or no) experience with a good system, you really don't know what it can do. I drive my company lease car in a way that should make the company proud....so I know that I can intentionally overwhelm the laws of physics and the car will save me 'almost' every time. I have been to professional driving courses where we are allowed to run at silly speeds with the system on, then with it off. Since there is plenty of run off and gravel traps, I can say that without the system I would have creamed every light pole - if they were there. With ESP, the computer steps in soon enough to avoid the out of control condition before it gets out of control! I can safely say that I can pilot my non-Viper on a twisty road faster than I can the SRT-10. The fear of going just a little too far is minimal.

Would an ESP system have saved this life? No way to know for sure. Would it have taken the inexperienced foot off the gas a split second sooner than 'oh no'? Probably.

 

[Makara]

I can safely say that I can pilot my non-Viper on a twisty road faster than I can the SRT-10. The fear of going just a little too far is minimal.

So you feel safer going faster with a crutch. That is a good way to become overconfident and get yourself into a mess that ESP won't be able to get you out of.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Yes, I feel safer going faster with the nannies on (street)
Yes, I felt safer where I knew it was safe to push it (track)

No, I do not feel safe pushing the Viper on the street, so I don't. Anymore.

Notice I said 'a little too far' If you get big-ballz overconfident and do something stupid, nothing can save you. It's the unexpected things that get us in trouble. The Vipers tail stepping out suddenly in the middle of a corner, cold run-flat tires....Computers are faster at catching stupidity or inexperience. Do I want it there all the time? no

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Keep this topic alive and perhaps we can help keep someone alive.

No one likes to be considered part of a group when the group statistics are not favorable. Not all teens are reckless not all teens are bad drivers but MOST teens have limited experience and knowledge about physics and reality. There are a few professional drivers in their teens they are the exception and are great drivers because of their training and seat time at speed.

Do we say nothing can be done? or that this is just the way it is? NO! If we get the message (learn how to drive) to one person adult or teen we may have saved a life. Chose to accept the reality proven by statistics that alcohol related death have been reduced by stricter regulation and enforcement. This is proof that statics of a group can be changed. The Teen accident death rate is one that needs to be reduced. These kids are just starting to live and their high death rate in a car is just not acceptable.

Who is doing what? and What can we do to help keep our kids and friends alive?

Viper Days has a special program for teens. Skip Barber has a Special program for teens. Both of these programs are new and an opportunity to teach young drivers vehicle dynamics in a controlled environment.

How can the Viper Club help? If you are not a Professional Race Driver, take a Performance Driving School. Once you have experienced how poorly you brake in a Neon - typical high point of frustration in "Skip Barber's Viper Club Specific" program also part of their Performance Driving Schools. Then try to brake and turn - basic accident avoidance maneuver - and you find yourself at a new level of frustration. But by the end of the program you "start" to get the importance of physics and how to manage vehicle dynamics to reduce braking distance, recover from a slide and sometimes a slide turns into a Big Spin. But everyone makes huge improvements in their ability to control Neon's, Dakota's and Viper's. And they learn their own limitations and the limitations of various cars. Most of us do not consider the importance of our tires (pressure, temperature and heat cycles and age) and road surface conditions(temperature, material, slope, sand, water gravel, etc.). We take a lot for granted and assume the road conditions and our tires will support our driving conditions. After a Driving School you will now be an ambassador to get your family and friends to learn how to drive.

I know a High School in Las Vegas hired a Skip Barber instructor to provide them with a driving school for their teen drivers.

It starts with us and then we have to encourage others to learn how to drive.

Regarding ESP - Good idea for the automatic tranny people movers. For performance cars (stick) they need more development. At Thunderhill a few weeks ago we had the pleasure of a new Corvette complements no other than Bob Lutz. (He gad this Vette delivered to Maurice Liang's house for a week of driving comparison to our Viper.) In turns the clutch would go to the floor so that the ESP Nanny could take control of vehicle balance.

Sorry you can stick that ESP where the Sun will not shine! Learn how to control a car!