A Viper for the Ill-informed Public

[Supercharged Vipermad]

I am of the opinion the public is NOT ill-informed. I have offered several good friends the opportunity to drive my GTS. On all but ONE occasion....they refused. And rightly so! I insisted...but they would not budge. Sure, it might have had a little to do with the fact that they couldn't pay to replace it if they wrecked it.....but there was fear in their eyes.

The one person who did drive it...well....we never got out of 2nd gear! LOL!! Ever seen new parents.....holding their kid, proud, happy, elated...and scared to DEATH?? That was the look I saw!

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Reminder all Skip Barber schools are discounted 10% to Viper Club Members, except their two day school which is discounted 25%. I suggest the two day school first then a couple car control schools then the racing school. Reason is getting a handle on good car control before the racing school, this will maximize the Racing School results.

Completed my 14th Skip Barber program a few weeks ago in preparation for three days of open track driving at Thunderhill with BAMF and Viper Days. What a blast being able to drive a Viper on a road course with a bunch of other Vipers.

Check the Viper Days schedule they have programs for drivers new to performance driving. Great people and Great track side support!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What a blast being able to drive a Viper on a road course with a bunch of other Vipers.

Check the Viper Days schedule they have program for drivers new to performance driving. Great people and Great track side support!

I'll bump that Fred.

See? I have some purpose around here.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks!

Yes, you do have a purpose.

Sorry if I hurt your feeling!

 

[SRTRICKY]

How many of you guys feel that with a program like Skip's some people will come out feeling over confident as if they know everything since they passed the schooling? (Sorry never attended one so I don't know exactly what Skip teaches.)

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Alice:

Unrecognized has been Dodge's success in making the car easier to drive. At 60 MPH it feels like 30 MPH. In a panic, ABS lets you steer. In a corner, it.. well, turns. It takes far less skill to drive "fast" than any crude design from the '70s.

When problems occur, it's physics that is unforgiving, not the car. The car provided 1 g lateral acceleration, probably better than 1 g deceleration, and 0-60 or 0-100 in single digits, all while seated in leather, blasting multichannel stereo, air conditioning... What more could one ask? Well, I can answer that - the traction/stability/brake/rollover/GPS location control will preferentially cause vehicle impact to be head on so that the seatbelts/airbags/collapsible steering column/cushioned knee bolsters/ONSTAR system can be better "aimed" at the passenger in order to save lives.

Janni said: You can kill yourself in a Prius. A moment of inattentiveness at 80 MPH in a Honda is every bit as dangerous as one in a Viper. I disagree. I would much rather try to correct an out of control 80 MPH Viper than an 80 MPH Prius.

Sorry for the loss of life, but I disagree with the risk assessment of the vehicle. Much more liability should be placed on those that find their way out of the performance envelope, however large and comfortable it is.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

How many of you guys feel that with a program like Skip's some people will come out feeling over confident as if they know everything since they passed the schooling? (Sorry never attended one so I don't know exactly what Skip teaches.)

Doubtful. Most performance schools bust your ego plenty and teach you to respect the machine.

Of course, Fred can better comment on this.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

I'll bump that Fred.

See? I have some purpose around here.

Chuck, I don't think anybody questions your "bumping" prowess or willingness to use it...

As to a written warning - yes, maybe, and no: Yes to a FAQ from owners and maybe an "official" position from the VCA, and no from DC. And I would also say that it would be only partially effective at best, regardless of who publishes it.

How many folks read a Viper brochure before their purchase? Not many could even find one prior to purchase. I would venture to say that most that researched a Viper prior to purchase, including myself, relied on the media (magazines, etc.) and forums like these. Both already do a fairly good job of warning folks either by intent or in passing.

In this particular case, the discussion originated based on parents that supposedly purchased a new Viper for their teenage son. Given the victim's ages, it was probably a high school graduation gift of sorts. So did the parents buy it on a whim? Or did the son ask for it specifically? The chances are fairly decent that either or both knew a little about the car prior to purchase. And chances are also decent that what ever limited knowledge they had came from a source that also had a few warnings included. Unfortunately, those warnings did nothing to prevent this tragedy. Indeed, from the few Viper brochures I have seen, many actually mention Skip Barber driving schools.

This tragedy involved too much torque, too much excitement, and too little experience. Traction control could partially cure the first, while driving school would help considerably for the latter. The challenge is to temper the excitement - and no amount of brochures, FAQ's, or good intentions will control that.

 

[doctorbob]

Well, time to get the flame suit on...I agree with Tom's post as well as Janni's. My best friend's daughter came to visit a couple of weeks ago. At 17 she wanted to drive my SRT10 and the answer was "let's go to a driving school first and then I will consider allowing you to drive the car under supervision". I am sorry this tragedy occurred but there is risk associated with any high performance car and frankly you can be killed in a Honda as well as a Viper if you do not understand the performance envelope of the vehicle.

 

[TSR6]

My point is the VIPER is not for teens. I think if the kid was driving by himself, or with his dad, it would have been safer, but put two teens together, and things change...

I disagree.

This is coming from someone in his last month as a teen ( I turn 20 in less than a month). I drove my dad's Viper at the age of 17, putting my dad in the passenger seat for the first time. I have also driven it alone, or with friends.

I don't see any problem with allowing teens to drive a Viper as long as they know what experiance the teen has driving, and knows the teen won't do something stupid. My dad knows my driving probably better than I do, and he has no problem with me driving any one of his vehicles. The same goes with me towards my dad - He's the ONLY other person to drive my Hemi Ram.

That said, I would never expect a stranger to allow me to drive their Viper, nor any one of their cars and I have never asked to drive anyone's car. I don't feel that it's a situation that I want to put anyone in.

Putting all teens into a lump sum of "they shouldn't drive a Viper" truly is wrong. Yes, not all teens are mature enough to handle the beast. I have no problem agreeing to that, but putting all teens into such a sterotypical group isn't right. I remember reading in previous threads that several of the owners on here let their kids drive thier Vipers, which I truly admire.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

A few years ago two young girls died when they hit a utility pole head-on. They were on a city streets posted speed was 35 MPH. The street was like a rolling board and they were trying to get air when they lost control. They were in a new VW and days away from leaving for their freshman year of college. Approx. 50% of deaths of 16-18 year olds are in cars. Cars can be lethal if control is lost!

Skip Barber's driving school is a very eye opening experience. They quickly show us how little control we have vs what is possible from several vehicles. Anyone who leaves one of these schools feeling invincible due to their instruction would be out of touch with reality. From my personnel experience after my 4th or 5th Skip Barber program I continued to question why rationality for attending Open Track events. After many driving school days I have a long way to go before I feel I am a good driver, likely never.

But I can say that the recent (few week ago) VCA Skip Barber program helped me get the most pleasure of driving three days at Thunderhill. The best part of the track experience was the comradery with the drivers, BAMF and Viper Days support and the track side Vendors which makes open track driving the most enjoyable legal driving expereince possible in a Viper.

 

[Viper Specialty]

My point is the VIPER is not for teens. I think if the kid was driving by himself, or with his dad, it would have been safer, but put two teens together, and things change...

I disagree.

This is coming from someone in his last month as a teen ( I turn 20 in less than a month). I drove my dad's Viper at the age of 17, putting my dad in the passenger seat for the first time. I have also driven it alone, or with friends.

I don't see any problem with allowing teens to drive a Viper as long as they know what experiance the teen has driving, and knows the teen won't do something stupid. My dad knows my driving probably better than I do, and he has no problem with me driving any one of his vehicles. The same goes with me towards my dad - He's the ONLY other person to drive my Hemi Ram.

That said, I would never expect a stranger to allow me to drive their Viper, nor any one of their cars and I have never asked to drive anyone's car. I don't feel that it's a situation that I want to put anyone in.

Putting all teens into a lump sum of "they shouldn't drive a Viper" truly is wrong. Yes, not all teens are mature enough to handle the beast. I have no problem agreeing to that, but putting all teens into such a sterotypical group isn't right. I remember reading in previous threads that several of the owners on here let their kids drive thier Vipers, which I truly admire.

I couldnt have said it better. I have teenage friends who I would trust driving my car LONG before some of the adults that I know. Ha, just the stats on my immediate group of friends and myself would stagger some of you in the Age vs. HP vs. Accidents department. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 people I know with 500+ HP cars, no accidents, under 20, and 1000's of miles under their belts at those HP levels. I can also think of 3 people over 21, with MANY accidents on their records, with 1000's of miles, and very "normal" cars. There is no ryhme or reason when it comes to the way people react behind the wheel of a car, whether it be fast, slow, big, small, etc.

Also, as far as experience and attentiveness go, think of this; How many times have you been following an older person and see them do something INCREDIBLY stupid? I bet, quite a few times. They likely have much more experience than you do driving, didn't keep them from making a bad move...did it?

There is no possible way to lump people into groups, in any way, shape, or form. There are good drivers, and bad drivers- in all age ranges. Stereotyping just doesnt work with things such as this. That 20 year old Viper driver/owner you hear about or meet just may have more experience than you think, perhaps even more than you. I just dislike hearing people immediately jump to "lack of experience" and "Immature" as reasoning for what happened, in any type of event like this. Mistakes happen. Stupidity happens. Accidents happen. No one will ever know for sure if an accident could have been avoided by a different driver or more experience after the fact.

 

[DSR207]

Quote
There is no possible way to lump people into groups, in any way, shape, or form. There are good drivers, and bad drivers- in all age ranges.

Try telling that to insurance companies, and while your at it, ask them why they charge so much more to cover teens...?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Final GTS and DSR207,

You are both not informed!

You can tell all the stories you want and your feeling about safe driving ages or why there is no way to lump people into groups! But the facts are available.

If you want to see the reality of traffic accidents go to: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

 

[TSR6]

Final GTS and DSR207,

You are both wrong!

You can tell all the stories you want and your feeling about safe driving ages or why there is no way to lump people into groups! But the facts are available.

If you want to see the reality of traffic accidents go to: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

Don't mind any spelling mistakes these quotes may have, I tried typing fast to copy them since you can't copy/paste from a PDF file:

"We know some charactoristics of younger drivers who are more likely than others to be in crashes, but it's impossible to identify them adequately on an individual basis and intervene before they get into crashes"


"Extensive research indicates that high school driver education doesn't lead to lower crash involvement compared with other ways of learning to drive. Attitudes, decision-making skills, risk-taking tendencies and other factors contribute in an important way to crashes and may not be affected much by driver education" - both quoutes are from the Graduated Licencing Information PDF.

Sounds to me like a fancy way of saying that "every driver is different" from both of these quotes.

It seems to me that most people just want to look at the stats and say that "teen drivers are bad, look at the stats."

Statistics are collectivist in nature. They look at a group as a whole, they don't take into account any notion of an individual. That would be like me saying "Look at the statistics, A lot of people have died in war, war is bad" Even though through war, the great nation that in which the Viper is built was created. Through the Civil War, slavery was abolished. So obviously the statement "war is bad" just the same as "teen drivers are bad" is to much of a generalization. You can't just lump everyone together. Some are good, some are bad. Some are excellent, and some are downright scary - just like any age group.

I truly appologize for anything that may or may not make sence in this post. It's 2:45, and I'm goin to bed!

 

[Viper Specialty]

Missing the point as usual.

ALL TEENS ARE NOT BAD DRIVERS. THAT IS MY POINT.

All of your facts and figures prove nothing other than teens are more likely to be involved in accidents. Does that mean ALL of them are bad drivers? NO IT DOES NOT.

Why do insurance companies charge more? Because the RISK is higher. Does that mean that all teens are going to crash? Ummm, no?

It was stated above that "a VIPER is not for teens." That is a concise statement that includes ALL teens in that catagory- ask anyone who has taken a deductive logic class exactly what that statement implies, you cant twist it around to mean anything else but "all." It SHOULD say "a Viper is not a car for most teens." That I would agree with.

Sorry if this seems out of character for a VCA Vendor, but this is one topic that really gets me going. I generally don't take topics on the board personally, but with this particular topic, I just can't help it.

 

[Joseph Houss]

LOVE Fred (Driving School!) Kinder's comments!

...and I can say that the idea of gifting a driving course for all new owners of a high performance car by has been considered by many manufacturers (including DC), and offered by some.

This is truly the best way to plant ****'s in the driver's seat and propel them to wisdom in a safe environment.

Hmmm, would a manufacturer consider a "Driver's school credit" on a new performance car purchase if attended prior to delivery of vehicle? Kind of like the "college grad discount"?

The big issue is for those that purchase our Vipers used.... and that's where our VCA comes in. As has been mentioned, we have discounts available for Skip Thomas' Viper Days, AND Skip Barber but still, not free.

Just a thought, but I'm sure we could get discount certificates from BOTH Skips (more substantial than their generous existing discounts) that could be given out to those that purchase a Viper through our classifieds section.

I'll look into this.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Another e-mail received:

"I know it's a serious topic, which is why I decided to speak about this. As an 18 year old, someone who loves the Viper, and someone who realizes that cars are weapons, it should be known that although fast cars are fun, its also dangerous when you don't know what you're doing. Regular driving schools should use different grades of cars, and should teach high performance handling, because let's face it; If someone you know has a sports car, odds are you will get to drive it at some point in time.

I really hope the message gets out there, that people should be educated about what they do, or drive. I love the Viper as much as you or any of the men/women in the forums do, but they know how to handle the car. They learned to tame the snake so it doesn't bite.

Some performance and tuner shops are moving in the right direction. My band's manager has a 1978 Datsun 280Z, and it makes enough power to smoke a stock Viper. It's winter in Ontario right now, so the car is in the shop, getting more power added. The tuner had my manager sign a form saying that he will go for high performance driving education before the keys are handed to him. This shop I'd say, is probably one of the best shops I know of, for the reason that they know what the cars can do, and the power they have, and they value their customers' safety."

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I wonder if they have discussions like this on the Vette board.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Chuck:

What do you see as the implications?

I do not see the cars as equivalent, and am not certain that such a discussion would interest them.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Chuck:

I do not see the cars as equivalent,

That's my point. LOL

 

[ViperInBlack]

Chuck:

whew!

Far too many people do.

 

[Janni]

How many people here have taken a high performance driving school as a direct result of purchasing the Viper? How many seek out venues where they can test the limits of their cars in a safe environment - i.e. open track days, ViperDays and/or autocrosses?

If you have, great. It's a wise INVESTMENT in yourself. And it's perfectly acceptable to advise others to do the same based on your experience. This experience, by the way, helps you be a better driver in whatever car you are in, not just the Viper. (so, maybe what I am saying here is that it's not the car that causes these accidents......)

If you haven't, why not? Not convenient? Don't want to spend the money? You're a good driver and you have already learned the limits of the Viper in a safe manner? If you answered yes to any of the above questions, then why would you think that warning others of the extreme nature of the Viper would sway them to make the investment noted above?

All of this advice applies to those of us who already own the car. Improving your skills, and keeping them sharp, requires refresher courses so that you can put yourself in situations and react to them without the fear of collision, damage, pedestrians, etc and truly learn the car and let these reactions become instinctual. Otherwise, you're just talking the talk without walking the walk. Everyone thinks they are a good driver - or, like Rainman, "an excellent driver". And you truly cannot learn the limits of ANY car on the street.

Finally, while I painted the 80 MPH scenario as equal in all cars - it's not. Tom's point well taken. I'd MUCH rather have the Viper under me when I have to perform that evasive manuever than just about any other car on the road. The CAR is better than just about anything else out there at avoiding an accident - and the best way to survive an accident is to avoid it.

 

[DSR207]

So in conclusion, Viper should be a classified as a good choice for teens !!! The subject was about a father buying a 500 HP car for his 17 year old son. What would he say if you ask him now ? Would he do it again ? The dealer and the insurance company should have recommended or even required Viper driving lessons, before handing him the keys period. When I said Vipers are not for teens, it was not meant as a put down for teens, it was a put down for the combo...LETS BE REAL HERE, WHAT WAS MORE SHOCKING, a teen acting like a teen, a Viper behaving like a Viper or a father buying a 500 hp monster for his 17 year old son.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Somebody explain this to me, because I'm only a mechanical engineer, not a social engineer.

Fred sends everyone to driving school. Students use a Honda Prius to learn how to trail brake, hit the apex, and, umm..., regenerate out of a turn. Corner entry is under the national speed limit, g-forces nearly spill the latte in of the cupholder, and you check your lap times on your wristwatch. A few smile at the screeching front tire and play with the volume by twitching the steering wheel, since it doesn't affect vehicle direction anymore. You leave from this school with an appreciation for driving.

Dodge develops a car that is "better" so it accelerates, brakes, and turns faster, safer, and with less driver skill or stress.

Fred send out coupons for an advanced driving school with Vipers. Everyone returns. Students find they can easily replicate and exceed every manuever in Prius with ease. Corner entry speeds climb to triple digits, braking capability causes one student to detach a retina, g-forces cause a serious neck strain on another, and a few students were too short to see over the hood because the front end lifts under acceleration for the whole backstretch. Several participants spin and travel sideways or backwards for quite some distance, create smoke and noise. You leave from this school with an appreciation for driving.

So, the takeaway is that a Viper is not like a Prius or a muscle car. It requires far less skill to drive at speeds that in a Prius or muscle car would be white-knuckle events. Driving a Viper inside the performance envelope provides sensory inputs that are outside the performance envelope of other cars. The capability of the car is such that when "problems" occur, physics demands that a larger amount of kinetic energy is dissipated. Magazines or promotional literature appropriately describes operating the vehicle inside the envelope rather than outside. Anyone in my family could easily drive this car, as they would probably stay within the bounds determined by their own car, not even those of a Viper.

Is the proposed message to potential consumers that "pay attention, go to a driving school, learn that the stratospheric limits of a Viper are far beyond anything you've driven before and you'll be a smarter driver on the street?" I don't see that. I only see "mistakes at high velocity generate more damage than mistakes at low velocity."

 

[Andy 98 RT/10]

From the ages 16 to 19, I had been in three serious car accidents, twice as the driver and once as the passenger. Luckily nobody was ever hurt even once when the car flipped over we still walked away. The cars were a Triumph TR7, a Ford Pinto and an AMC Matador. If I was behind the wheel of a Viper during those accidents the only way I would have left the scene would have been feet first and with a sheet over my head.

A factory brochure is not going to replace intelligence and common sense. The power of the Viper is just too dominant for the hormones of a teenage male. I can admit it, when I was a teenager; it was all balls and no brains. You stated it perfectly when you said “the Viper is unforgiving”. A teen age boy needs to be in a car that is very forgiving because he is going to make mistakes and boys will be boys.

Just because you were immature as a teenager, we can't lump them all into the same category. I was a sensible and mature teenager, and wouldn't have acted any differently in the viper than I do today. There many others like me too, so why should we pay for some who are irresponsible.

 

[Viperfreak2]

There many others like me too, so why should we pay for some who are irresponsible.

That's just the way society is. Some teens are REALLY bad drivers so they all have to pay higher insurance rates. Some elderly folks are notoriously poor drivers too, I see them every day. They should stay home, especially at lunch and dinner time.

 

[ViperInBlack]

A dealership brochure, an FAQ, and/or even a driving school are not going to necessarily reduce accident/injury/death. They may, however, help to contribute to a more informed buyer/driver and provide a clarification and reminder of the unique responsibilities inherent in owning the SRT-10 Viper.

"Pre-learning" occurs when an individual is exposed to data prior to the need for those data. When the need arises, pre-learning enables the individual to elect to make informed decisions/behaviors.

Is it a solution? Absolutely not.

Would it be helpful? Perhaps, and certainly a low effort/low risk venture.

 

[quick2tr]

DSR207:

LETS BE REAL HERE, WHAT WAS MORE SHOCKING, a teen acting like a teen, a Viper behaving like a Viper or a father buying a 500 hp monster for his 17 year old son.

Father buying the Viper for the 17 year old son. But only because of the $$$, not the danger.

Question: Is it still just as shocking when father buys son the less expensive, but much more dangerous sport bike?

 

[Warfang]

Richard:

The term "lethality" applies to many things and many vehicles and would not be necessary, but responsibly informing the public would be helpful and arguably may impact the accident/injury rate in the car.

The SRT-10 is a deceptively calm looking car unlike its predecessors, and with the release of the C6, which arguably looks like its little brother, the distinction between a car and streetable race car becomes all the more ambiguous.

Referring back to the Harley once again: In your owners materials, there are well written documents regarding safety, safety courses and safety gear. The risk factor with a Harley is greater than that of a Viper, but the SRT-10 Viper with its creature comforts may confuse new and prospective owners into thinking that this is "just one more car."

My fear is that once you put a "DANGER" lable on the Viper... every loose pants wearing, bling collecting idiot will want one... more so than they do already. Just like they've been gobbling up every ultra-fast motorcycle they can get their hands on, thanks to recent dumb movies about idiots on bikes. Monkey see, monkey do. The more you tell some people NOT to do something, the more they'll want to do it.

We don't need Vipers to be the next Escalade as a status symbol. Can you imagine a Viper on every episode of MTV Cribs?