ABS or non for a newbie

[Tom F&L GoR]

Well, if ABS and TC aren't stupid proof, then only good drivers will reap the benefits. How's that for twisted logic?

Speaking of twisted, is that an ABS ring I see in there?
[media]http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm63/vipermanmitch/LOGSDON3111.jpg[/media]

 

[Red Snake]

My GTS has the SRT Big Brake upgrade on it now (old fronts moved to rear).

So which car is better equipped "brake-wise"? My SRT Brake equipped GTS or a 2001 GTS with stock anti-lock brakes?

 

[dave6666]

My GTS has the SRT Big Brake upgrade on it now (old fronts moved to rear).

So which car is better equipped "brake-wise"? My SRT Brake equipped GTS or a 2001 GTS with stock anti-lock brakes?

Dunno, but I have both. A 2001 GTS with SRT calipers F/R and 14" rotors F/R. And with all of that brake equipment my ABS steps in ever time I hit them hard.

Just swerving to avoid asteroids at intersections...

 

[ViperTony]

Well, if ABS and TC aren't stupid proof, then only good drivers will reap the benefits.

Dang it Tom here you go again with your common sense.

 

[dave6666]

Dang it Tom here you go again with your common sense.

It's called spinning, not common sense. ABS and T/C are driver's aids, regardless of the driver's intelligence or skill. But most will admit of course they are not perfect, and they do not resolve the unpreventable accidents that can happen irregardless of equipment and skill. Like getting t-boned or the asteroid collision. So, because these nanny items are not perfect, they are call aids. They also help both smart and dumb drivers on the street.

Another item that is getting nit-picked here from the basket of pickables to pick from, is that how many of the accident stats deal with cars traveling at *** speeds? Versus what is likely the majority of that statistical pool of accidents in the 45 to 75 mph range? Slamming on the brakes at 150 in a Viper versus slamming on the brakes at 75 in a minivan shouldn't be compared.

 

[RevHeat]

You must be registered for see images

 

[Red Snake]

@ RevHeat!


Awesome shirt.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

BZZZT, it's not spinning, I already called it twisted logic, so there. But what is the theme here?

"It could save your life..."
"I have made many aggressive braking maneuvers from *** speeds..."
"...sporty, those are exactly the kind of speeds that I have felt the system work."
"...I am giving generalized comments as to it's enhancement to safety on the street"
"Slamming on the brakes at 150 in a Viper versus slamming on the brakes at 75 in a minivan shouldn't be compared."

You brake from *** and feel ABS kick in, then you generalize that street driving in the 45 to 75 mph range is safer, but we then shouldn't compare 150 in a Viper to 75 in a minivan? Dunno where the argument went, other than better drivers always helps, better hardware usually helps, better software sometimes helps.

Maybe traction control and ABS will pull a "HAL 9000" and combine with GPS and speed radar to dodge asteroids automatically while also eliminating excursions over *** mph.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Well, it appears then traction control is not fail proof. Or stupid proof. Just as we all agree that ABS won't save your life when getting t-boned at a stop sign or when the asteroids attack and crush you.

The asteroid analogy is appropriate considering frequency in which ABS actually saves a life is just a little bit more than getting hit by an asteroid.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Aside from the fact that both ABS and traction control are electronic aids, it challenges me as to why they always end up being compared to each other in these threads. The actions, emotions, and desired results of emergency braking versus enthusiastic acceleration are black and white.

TC is about emergency also. It is supposed to kick in on wet pavement and turns.

 

[Martin]

I think the aftermarket should come up with a Viper ABS delete kit and let's gather data and see how it went. Would anyone be willing to do that?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

...

Great shirt but if you ever get in a wreck, t-boned or hit by an asteroid the ABS crowd will all be jumping in claiming your wreck would have happened if you just had ABS.

 

[dave6666]

Here's where I get my T-shirts with catchy quips on them about how smart I am:

Catchy T-shirts

 

[dave6666]

I think the aftermarket should come up with a Viper ABS delete kit and let's gather data and see how it went. Would anyone be willing to do that?

Oh! OH! OH!!!


Pick me! Pick me!

 

[Martin]

Something tells me that this discussion is too religious for anyone's minds to be changed. I've heard everyone's valid points, and all the points make sense to me in the context that people are presenting them. My personal opinion is that I like ABS because I had a panic-stop experience where I know it saved me a ton of trouble with insurance companies, body shop, etc., but if someone else out there doesn't like it - that's their right. In my humble opinion, ABS doesn't make a bad driver good, and a good driver doesn't make ABS bad.

Traction and/or stability control, on the other hand, isn't my cup of tea because it makes bad drivers feel like they can do anything. I liken it to when SUVs first got popular - you'd see tons of them barrelling through snowy/icy highways just because the driver thought somehow four wheel drive had a magic ability to keep them from losing traction. These days, I see a lot of idiot drivers in high performance cars who think stability control will maintain stability in all cases - and I've seen a lot of them off the side of my canyon or into a tree.

 

[dave6666]

Unfortunately, a lot of those brazen SUV's you speak of are nothing more than a car chassis still sprung in 2WD.

Oh, with tall tires.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I think the aftermarket should come up with a Viper ABS delete kit and let's gather data and see how it went. Would anyone be willing to do that?

Comparisons in the early 1990's (when the car population was beginning to include ABS) produced many technical, statistical treatises on driving safety with and without ABS. Here is one at NHTSA's site:

ABS Passenger Cars

There is nothing surprising, and here is my summary of their summary: wet weather crashes decreased, pedestrians and bicyclists are the big beneficiaries, little effect on multi-vehicle crashes on dry roads, drivers don't know how to maximize use of ABS, and (this one has Dave's name all over it -) run-off-road crashes increased significantly with ABS. Overall, net effect was close to zero.

If there are newer studies (there must be, given that I heard ABS will be required in new cars) please post a link. It would be informative to see studies that show severity of crash and injury rather than yes/no.

Edit - I see Martin's post and agree that if you know and like what you have in/on your car, you'll drive better with it. If you don't know, don't care, can't tell... that's a bad sign.

 

[dave6666]

Nothing against your link there Tom, let alone the fact that I'm not going to research a more recent study, but 1990 is 19 years old.

-> The ABS technology... 19 years old.

-> Computers used for data gathering and anaylsis... 19 years old.

-> The pool of data... 19 years smaller.

Um...

 

[Martin]

I think the biggest problem with ABS is that the general public don't know how to use it correctly. Not many of us deal with panic stop situations on a daily basis, and when I learned how to drive, we were taught threshold braking. The first time I had ABS kick in on an icy road, it freaked me out a little bit, distracted me a lot, and my reaction was to back off on the brakes because it felt like something was wrong. I suspect that's what happens with a lot of people and that skews the results quite a bit. The systems are meant to be used where you're pressing the brakes to the floorboard, and backing off on the brakes totally negates any benefit - as does getting distracted when you need to be focusing on avoiding the target in front of you. But, that one time where I just hammered the brake pedal so hard that I probably put a dent in the firewall, and heard my tires chirp five or six times as I approached the guy stopped across both lanes in front of me, and stopped less than a foot from broadsiding him made me a believer.

There really should be a driving school focused on getting people used to the feeling of their ABS equipped car. Having ABS engage for the first time can really be distracting and freaky if you haven't practiced it and don't know what to expect.

 

[eucharistos]

motor week (pbs) used to say 3s's of abs

stomp
stay
steer


stomp-the brake pedal hard
stay-on the pedal
steer-to safety

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The link is a Dec 1994 paper. The analysis is valid because there was a reasonable population of ABS and non-ABS cars. The analysis is highly valid because ABS was "the change" and any more recent analysis includes additional safety changes that would confound the results. Lastly, Physics don't age. Heck, I know 16 year old electrochemistry patents that support a company's biggest selling product!

Martin highlights one of the paper's conclusions, and I have mentioned this before because I strongly believe it. ABS pulses the pedal when wheel #1 goes under software control and the three other wheels still have additional available tractive force. Driver training needs to emphasize what eucharistos said about completely stomping on the pedal. If it has been 15-19 years since ABS was introduced and people haven't learned that yet, then Chuck should win the argument in that driver capability continues to overshadow driver aids.*

(* cars are still not stupid proof)

 

[RevHeat]

Here's where I get my T-shirts with catchy quips on them about how smart I am:

Catchy T-shirts

Maybe if you get off the keyboard and take your Viper to the track you would understand the shirt a bit better.

 

[dave6666]

Maybe if you get off the keyboard and take your Viper to the track you would understand the shirt a bit better.

Sounds like you have personal knowledge of what I do with my life? First hand information?

Best thing is to not assume you know anything about me that I have not told you.



Oh, and by the way, at the track I'm in a Viper with ABS. By choice!

 

[Leslie]

at the track

so you HAVE decided to start tracking your Viper!

awsome, you gotta do it at least ONCE Dave

 

[dave6666]

so you HAVE decided to start tracking your Viper!

No, you too only know about me what I want you to know. I control that always.

What do you believe?

 

[AZTVR]

No, you too only know about me what I want you to know. I control that always.
What do you believe?

I believe that human beings naturally draw conclusions from the pieces of information that they receive, based on their life experience.

I believe that your previous statements related to tracking a Viper were made to deliberately mislead the persons reading them. Another possibility that I judge to be slightly lower probability was that they were made solely to not reveal aspects of your personal life. I believe that that they were most probably exactly truthful and led 100% of the readers to assume the wrong thing. Either way the reader's conclusion is the same.

I find that at work, I end up misleading my coworkers by saying exactly what I mean, and not recognizing that they are making the wrong conclusion. In most of those cases, I didn't intend to mislead; but, sometimes I do.

 

[dave6666]

I give out information as to make people assume I don't track my car. That is the image I want my car to have.

Whether I actually do or not, very few people know. Including everyone that has posted in this thread.



How did this thread get about me anyway. We're supposed to be talking brakes. Ya'll shut up about Dave now you hear?

 

[AZTVR]

How did this thread get about me anyway. We're supposed to be talking brakes.

Agreed ! Back to the OP's question. My opinion: Because of the big wide tires, ABS can be very valuable in a Viper in situations involving slippery conditions. Especially if you don't have a lot of experience with the car.

Most people don't have the training and repeated practice to deal with those rare situations successfully. ABS can help and is worthwhile.

Where do we draw the line for new Vipers? Let's draw the line today, kind of like being the Amish of the sports car world. No new driver aids. Like many of you, I suspect, I enjoy driving different cars for their specific attributes and their levels of development. I enjoy older sports cars for what they were at the time, not how they compare to other cars. If I want significantly different characteristics, I buy a different type of car.

 

[OKViper]

Newsflash, this arguement will go on forever...

01+ owners like the ABS...
96-99 owners like forged pistons...
If Dodge gave free upgrades to all 00+ owners for a forged piston swap and free upgrades to 00- owners for free ABS swaps, everyone would get them and magically everyone would start agreeing.

People always defend what they own. I've had both and think the ABS outweighed the forged motor.

Now if 2000 had both instead of neither - that would be the holy grail of GEN 2's...

 

[dave6666]

Newsflash, this arguement will go on forever...

That's why it is the PERFECT topic!