ABS or non for a newbie
- Thread starter cali-car-guy
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Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
The front and rear of the sill can be modified to allow airflow. That should be enough but if not high-flow cats will do it.
JonB sells louvers and some other folks have upgrades too.
jdeft1
Enthusiast
if i needed them i'd do them
I need them. I don't have them ... yet. Waiting for my toy budget to swell a bit.
AZTVR
Enthusiast
As long as you get the car checked out, there is nothing to be worried about with cars in that mileage range or higher. You will pay more for a very low mileage (10k mi) car; but, you will probably need tires right away, and all fluids changed due to age. A higher mileage car will sell for less; but will be just as reliable, and probably has more recent maintenance. When you sell either of them, they probably will depreciate the same amount; so, cost of ownership probably is similar.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
PatentLaw
Enthusiast
To the original poster......how about doing a search on the forum?
Sittingbull101
Enthusiast
I call that the toy pedal car argument. Heck, let's go back to solid axles front and back, they are so much more intense.
dave6666
Enthusiast
I actually did that, knowing that hidden in all of the typical bantering was some discussion on that matter.
And it is just that; hidden amongst many other subjects and tangents. At least starting a new thread makes the date current at the top.
dave6666
Enthusiast
F350 Super Duty chassis meets Viper body...
Anyway, as a big fan of F1 racing I remember those Speed Channel guys talking about the electronic controls on the F1 cars. Which are the pinnacle of technology when it comes to everything go-fast and stop-fast. And the fact that the rule changes were fixing to take some of these driver aids away.
The consensus was that the electronic controls exceed the capability of even the best driver. Period.
ABS is not some girly nannytech devise. It could save your life in a situation where you don't have time to realize anything but the fact you have already reacted to it and it's over. Traction control on the other hand - nannytech too - is controllable by your right foot and brain, and most people do not punch the gas and lose control during an emergency acceleration.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Someone insert some numbers for me here...
2001 - 2002
Cost of a set of forged pistons when already doing other mods that warrant them $__________
1996 - 1999
Converting a non ABS car to ABS - $__________
2000
Um......
2001 - 2002
Cost of a set of forged pistons when already doing other mods that warrant them $__________
1996 - 1999
Converting a non ABS car to ABS - $__________
2000
Um......
eucharistos
Enthusiast
"lose control during an emergency acceleration."
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
You don't get it. Independent suspensions or solid axles do not reduce the need for driver skill. ABS does.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Gosh, how did we manage to survive the past 90 years without ABS?
dave6666
Enthusiast
Maybe not everyone has. Unfortunately, they often cannot mouth the words to say that sure would have been a help.
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not sure if this was mentioned but ABS should help with not flat spotting your tires which is a *****.
I personally had both and prefer the ABS but to each there own. Your gonna get a bunch of different opinions on this as its been discussed alot. If your worried about a particular color and it not having ABS, then go for the color. The non abs vipers are easy to live with and you wont even know that is doesnt have abs if your driving normal but to me its an extra safety measure I like.
In saying on that, my current viper is a 2000 (non abs) and I m looking to get another 2000 because I like that colors offered that year as opposed to having ABS (grey).
I personally had both and prefer the ABS but to each there own. Your gonna get a bunch of different opinions on this as its been discussed alot. If your worried about a particular color and it not having ABS, then go for the color. The non abs vipers are easy to live with and you wont even know that is doesnt have abs if your driving normal but to me its an extra safety measure I like.
In saying on that, my current viper is a 2000 (non abs) and I m looking to get another 2000 because I like that colors offered that year as opposed to having ABS (grey).
dave6666
Enthusiast
Who does THAT?
As I said earlier in this thread, I have made many aggressive braking maneuvers from *** speeds and felt the ABS working. In an emergency braking situation without ABS from those same speeds? Never tried it, and damn sure don't want to.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
A proper non-ABS braking system is supposed to make impact head-on so the air bag, seat belt, crush structure, cabin panels, head rests, etc all protect the driver in a sudden movement. We are ignoring all sorts of other survivability "aids" in modern cars and assuming ABS will decrease braking distances enough or decrease the impact severity enough to make the most significant life or death differences. From what I have read, insurance statistics don't seem to bear this out.
It should make sense. For every lucky instance of just missing a [insert noun here] there are going to be more instances of "ABS car hits [noun] at 10 MPH slower speed than non-ABS car." ABS helped, but it isn't a force field that eliminates accidents and panic situations.
As an FYI, I learned that the pulsing in the brake pedal meant ABS was working. Later I found that the brake pedal pulses when ABS is activated on even one brake. Therefore three other tires are still braking at less than capacity. So even if it's pulsing, push harder.
Braking in a turn, braking over uneven surface, rain, no flat spots, Agree.
Huge change in "safety" or survivability, I don't see it.
I'll still bet a 6-pack that more Vipers are in parts warehouses because of a misapplied right pedal than lack of a middle pedal.
It should make sense. For every lucky instance of just missing a [insert noun here] there are going to be more instances of "ABS car hits [noun] at 10 MPH slower speed than non-ABS car." ABS helped, but it isn't a force field that eliminates accidents and panic situations.
As an FYI, I learned that the pulsing in the brake pedal meant ABS was working. Later I found that the brake pedal pulses when ABS is activated on even one brake. Therefore three other tires are still braking at less than capacity. So even if it's pulsing, push harder.
Braking in a turn, braking over uneven surface, rain, no flat spots, Agree.
Huge change in "safety" or survivability, I don't see it.
I'll still bet a 6-pack that more Vipers are in parts warehouses because of a misapplied right pedal than lack of a middle pedal.
Martin
Enthusiast
There's no doubt that some people are better drivers than others, and the ABS discussion can be looked at from many different angles. On one extreme, if you're on a track with skilled drivers all around you, ABS really isn't necessary or desired - and I think it can actually be dangerous because part of racing is about knowing where a car is going to drift when it's out of control. ABS can make a crashing car go places that the cars behind it don't expect, and my opinion is that it can be a safety hazard in situations like that.
On the other hand, when you have other drivers out on public roads that do things that are downright stupid and unexpected, my opinion is that ABS can save your butt. I have a whole stable of cars that don't have ABS and I've never crashed any of them (well, one of them I did put through a retaining wall 25 years ago, but that's whole different story and ABS wouldn't have helped) - but I did have one experience (mentioned earlier in this post) where I missed an accident by less than a foot and that was a sphincter puckering experience that gave me immense respect for the ABS system. If I didn't have ABS, and my braking distance had increased by just a few feet, that would have been a bad crash. I've always been in the camp that ABS was unnecessary, but that experience changed my mind.
To say that any of us has been driving for xx years without ABS and hasn't had a problem just isn't a good argument against ABS. I drove for years without installed seatbelts, and many more years without airbags, and I never had problems. But, I wouldn't say that my experience should influence anyone's opinion of those devices. Accidents do happen, and if a relatively cheap technology like ABS can decrease your panic stopping distance by even a few feet, it could be the difference between soiled shorts and big trouble.
NorthernSnake
Enthusiast
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thats just not true. When the GTS did a shoot out with a bunch of other sports cars (996tt, C5 Z06, NSX, etc) pre ABS system it beat them in every category except braking...it came dead last.
If you were to input the braking distance from tests with the ABS equiped vipers it would have been first in braking as well. ABS just hauls the car down faster and in a more controlled fashion regardless of skill level.
The same cannot be said for traction control. Just look at the SRT-10ACR Ring time for proof (7:22)...if you removed the ABS from the ACR it wouldnt run anywhere close to that time or the ZR1/Zonda F and Enzo times...with ABS and no traction control...it beats them.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Whoa, now we're close to home. Any stock non-ABS Viper will brake poorly - I measured 0.8G's, which calculates to a 150ft 60-0 MPH. Presto chango the rear calipers to something a little larger and braking improved to 1.0 G for a calculated 120ft 60-0 MPH. Road & Track test shows really good cars stop at that distance (and my test was stock '94, stock tires, public road, customer car, my mediocre driving, limited attempts.)
Data talks and BS walks, and the old Viper was last and an ABS Viper is good, but the size of the rear caliper (i.e. brake balance) changed from 36mm single piston in non-ABS to 43mm single in early ABS to four piston in later ABS. ABS software is one part, but the hardware made a difference, too.
You can, um, click a link below and look at the Performance, Balance, and Advantages pages to read all about it!
and braking improved to 1.0 G for a calculated 120ft 60-0 MPH. Road & Track test shows really good cars stop at that distance (and my test was stock '94, stock tires, public road, customer car, my mediocre driving, limited attempts.) Data talks and BS walks, and the old Viper was last and an ABS Viper is good, but the size of the rear caliper (i.e. brake balance) changed from 36mm single piston in non-ABS to 43mm single in early ABS to four piston in later ABS. ABS software is one part, but the hardware made a difference, too.
You can, um, click a link below and look at the Performance, Balance, and Advantages pages to read all about it!
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
That's what I'm saying. I will also add that ABS is very effective in reducing fender-benders but if you're going fast enough to kill yourself ABS isn't gonna stop you from doing so. IMO.
Seatbelts are still the greatest safety factor since the first cars were built 100 years ago. Wear it or don't worry about ABS.
dave6666
Enthusiast
And that is exactly where I disagree based on personal experience. I mean, first maybe you have to define what speed is fast enough to kill yourself, but assuming we mean something sporty, those are exactly the kind of speeds that I have felt the system work. Why would that not contribute to survival, whether being you are being stupid (going to fast...
) or not?Warfang
Enthusiast
Same argument from the usual nannyphiles (aka shouldagotaV8).
PASSIVE technologies, like tires and lsd ENHANCES the driving experience. ACTIVE technologies, like ABS and traction control of any alphabetical type (ie- requiring a computer to do the driving for you) TAKES AWAY from your driving experience. Now ABS is mandated by law, so no choice here. It also keeps you from flat-spotting, so that's a fair enough compromise. Fact is, what makes a Viper is the LEAST amount of nanny legally possible to provide the purest "driver-car-road" experience. At this rate, 10 years from now, the Viper will be the only car you can DRIVE... everything will be autopilot, and ya'll be complaining how dangerous that is.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Dave, c'mon. ABS has great capabilities, but cannot avoid every impact or absolve every idiotic driving manuever. It allows a pre-programmed maximum usage of individual wheel retardation forces. If you are traveling at *** MPH and someone runs a stop sign... won't matter too much if the skid marks start 100ft before impact or that your ABS prevented flat spots before impact.
As happy as I am that ABS can contribute to all those "near misses" the realistic overall view is that it may lessen the crash result based on a percentage improvement in deceleration rates- it cannot save everyone from ever having an accident for the rest of their driving life. Further, it ensures you hit head-on, in the most protected state, and how do you judge the survivability benefit of that vs. ABS? It's a wide gray area and as smart as we are, we keep thinking about ABS digitally.
A final thought - if ABS makes us all better drivers, than as soon as the vehicle turnover gets to where almost all cars have ABS, then we will stop having accidents?
Over and out.
As happy as I am that ABS can contribute to all those "near misses" the realistic overall view is that it may lessen the crash result based on a percentage improvement in deceleration rates- it cannot save everyone from ever having an accident for the rest of their driving life. Further, it ensures you hit head-on, in the most protected state, and how do you judge the survivability benefit of that vs. ABS? It's a wide gray area and as smart as we are, we keep thinking about ABS digitally.
A final thought - if ABS makes us all better drivers, than as soon as the vehicle turnover gets to where almost all cars have ABS, then we will stop having accidents?
Over and out.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
And that is exactly where I disagree based on personal experience. I mean, first maybe you have to define what speed is fast enough to kill yourself, but assuming we mean something sporty, those are exactly the kind of speeds that I have felt the system work. Why would that not contribute to survival, whether being you are being stupid (going to fast...
As Tom eluded to earlier the difference between a non-ABS GenII and ABS GenII included a piston size change which increased the ABS GenII performance. A similar hardware change made to a non-ABS GenII would result in nearly identical stopping distances. (not speaking for Tom here, just my own opinion).
The big safety advantage of ABS has always been the ability to turn while braking. Certainly there are cases were ABS saved someone from a catastophic accident, but those cases are much more rare than folks think. JMO.
I can't help but look at Wrecked Exotic Cars - Pictures of Expensive Car Crashes and Wrecks and wonder, if nannies are so safe then why are all those cars wrecked?
BTW I have a little experience with nanny cars too. One incident where the driver pushed his Murcialago too far and did a 360, responding afterwards "I didn't think it would do that." Thankfully we were at the track at the time.
Because nannies can't fix the stupid.
Warfang
Enthusiast
dave6666
Enthusiast
And no, ABS won't help me if an asteroid falls on my car either. At any speed.
You are nit-picking ABS to suit your argument while I am giving generalized comments as to it's enhancement to safety on the street, which is where the OP said he was using his car.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Well, it appears then traction control is not fail proof. Or stupid proof.
Just as we all agree that ABS won't save your life when getting t-boned at a stop sign or when the asteroids attack and crush you.Aside from the fact that both ABS and traction control are electronic aids, it challenges me as to why they always end up being compared to each other in these threads. The actions, emotions, and desired results of emergency braking versus enthusiastic acceleration are black and white.
