Adelberg v. Sean Roe (Roe Racing)

[luc]

I think that it is the best thing to do in this situation.
At least none of you will have to bear the full expense of this bad experience.
It will be hard for me to understand if Sean doesn't agree to your proposition.
I just hope that this brake kit will not be resold.
some of us believe that the problem come from the system itself,some others that YOU are the problem.
But one thing is sure,nobody can be sure 100% that this kit is "safe".
For those of you that believe that Ken is the problem and/or that slower/beginner driver are harder on brakes,let me just say that if I had to be a passenger in a race/open track event,I will feel a lot safer,beside being a lot faster, having Ken as a driver than any of you.
I am not,even if I live in California and drink "contaminated" water,trying to insult anyone.
But that someone, can really BELIEVE that a braking system is under more stress with a beginner/slower driver than with a faster/experienced racer,is vey scary.

luc.

 

[Ernie J]

Ken,I've read the half true and untrue posts attempting to
intimidate Sean Roe the last few days.I have some pertinent comments that I would appreciate my fellow Viper owners
considering. Your quote " after six months of trying to get the
system to work". Three months ago you posted how great the system was. That was the same thread where Pmum told how you were over braking and abusing the brakes. Your quote"two near
death experiences". I race almost every week. Have been hit hard
four times this season. Was hit on national TV at the Mid Ohio
runoffs last October and spun three times. Never once have I even gotten a scratch. Your accidents must have been terrific
for you to be near death. I'd love to hear about them. Your quote
"I guess he wanted me to R & D his flawed system". This exact
system has been in use for three years. It is on Ron Adee's
"one Lap of America" winning Viper. It was on Ron's truck last year which was leading the "One Lap" when he had an engine failure. Its on Tom Weicherts "World Challenge" Viper etc,etc.
Of the twenty five systems in use no one else has ever had a
problem.The system is proven not flawed. Your quote"Sean has offered to have me return the parts, he would get them inspected
and if they were good he would try to sell them to someone else".
Sean's actual offer was return the parts to him to forward to the
manufacturers for analysis. If any of the parts were found to be defective he would replace them at no cost and pay for your related damages.Its been almost two months and you havn't returned the parts. To expect anyone to refund your money without
knowing the cause of the problem is ludicris. You have since told Sean you did not want the system. He graciously offered to refurbish it with no labor charge and sell it for you. Now after days of your cronies bad mouthing Sean with such inuendos as
"death brakes" etc. you act like you are doing him a favor by
allowing him to give you all of your money back.
One final thought.Sean has been selling parts and working on
Vipers for three years.During that time no one has ever posted
a negative comment about him. He has hundreds of customers from
Australia to Europe. Whats wrong here? I have a feeling its not Sean.

 

[GTS Dean]

I haven't said much throughout this whole ordeal, but here goes: (and I'll try not to name names.....)

I find it un-freaking-imaginable that a Viper will lock the rears up with any brake system that is properly engineered AND installed. I've seen some early systems sold by one of the "name" tuners that had THREE proportioning valves in the system, trying to find some semblance of balance. You want to talk about scary?

Brake system design is not rocket science, but does take competent math skills, along with a good knowledge of vehicle dynamics, TESTING, and good analytical skills. I truly believe that "doo-dad-maker" fits this desctiption, but testing may have been a bit short. The guy that sells brakes there in SoCal went and hired a REAL brake engineer and spent some big bucks on manufacturing and materials. That's great, but it certainly isn't required. There are lots of fine off-the-shelf products available - Wilwood, Brembo, PFC, etc., that perform wonderfully when properly matched. Once the stock caliper mounting ears are sawed off the knuckles, there's no turning back, but "the sky's the limit" from then on.

It's been said before, and I agree, that there should be an independent analysis of the system in question by a reputable technician. Terms of reparations should be agreed to in advance.

I believe that this whole debate, despite the harangue, has been generally healthy for the VCA. The moderator-types used reasonable restraint. The fact that "The Thread That Wouldn't Die" keeps coming back to life, means that it is considered VITAL by those of us who quest for knowledge, and at some point, finality.

I hope this is my last post on the subject.

Respectfully submitted,

 

[Gavin]

I want to acknowledge and thank all those folks that offered their thoughts on what might have caused Kens problem. Its disappointing to me to see all the personal attacks. This board is and has been a wealth of information for me - in fact it was the postings on Sean's System that lead me to read up on his product. Some months ago, right after the Button Willow Viper Days in March of this year, there were substantial postings on Seans system from a number of folks, I think Ken was one of them - getting into the mathematical and technical side of braking systems. All very good stuff. I started my investigation with a post by Bob Lee in August of 2000.

So thanks again to all those folks that take the time to put good factual information on this site. I am also grateful to Ken for posting his concerns about Seans system. I just happen to be of a mind not to agree with his conclusions - I try to, but each time I come back to the fact that there must be a cause, to have brakes applied. Some of you came with reals pearls of ideas.

Do "novices" produce more heat in the braking system than "experts" - I can see if a novice is on the brakes too often and too long that is going to generate substantial heat - I've also seen the heat coming of the "fast guys" brakes - I think Jon B summed it up pretty good - both sides of that part of the argument CAN be right. Bottom line of it is - do we really care about this aspect - I guess so if the arguement is being used to make someone wrong - but then if we were keeping the personal stuff out of it and putting our efforts into treorizing on Kens problem - then we wouldn't care - guys and girls, lets work on Kens problem - someone out there has an experience that will lead to an answer! My request is, you guys with years of experience under your belts (and those with less) just may be able to recal an incident that might help this issue.
One major failure of a system that is fail proof on so many other cars covering a lot of racing miles may or may not point to a design problem. what do I mean? Well try this on...Putting the system on a full out racing car will produce a certain result. Putting the system on a basically stock car may produce the same result or a different result (I am talking in terms of the things that could cause a failure of the brake system). The brakes may be subjected to substantially more heat on the racing car, but cooling ducts, driving ability, the track itself, a multitude of things may lead to the brakes actually running cooler - I don't know......somebody knows!!! Lets keep the dialogue open and factual ideas flowing for safetys sake
Gavin

 

[K Adelberg]

Ernie J, you make some great points! Hmmm, maybe you should read the latest Car and Driver and more specifically the quotes from Ron Adee himself about his brake troubles. Refer to the post "Congratulations to Ron Adee". Beyond the brake issues that Adee had with Roe's system, I have information about other clients who are dissatisfied with the performance of Sean's brake system. If you so desire, I can supply you with their names.

 

[K Adelberg]

Over a month ago when Sean Roe came on the internet with his asking of an "opinion" I didn't even respond because I didn't want to make him look bad and I thought we could work it out. At the end of that thread he implied that he didn't know there was a problem "upstream" of the rear calipers and in light of that would make good on my purchase. Here is what Sean considers "making good": Sean has offered to have me return the parts, he would get them inspected and if they are good he would try to sell them to somebody else for me. That is beyond totally unacceptable on many levels previously discussed by others before the moderators deleted the posts. He never once stated or implied that he would refund even a penny if the parts were good or bad. That, everybody, is why I haven't sent the parts back.

I think that after 6 months of trying to get this system to work, 4 ruined brand new tires, 2 ruined weekends, my beloved car being inoperable for half of a year, my wheel hub knuckles being cut off the car to accommodate the system (so I couldn't go back to stock), thousands of dollars to a highly skilled mechanic, 2 near death experiences, many tow truck rides, 1 fire, etc. that shows I didn't bail out on this system prematurely. After the second complete system failure Sean made me buy new calipers because the old ones were ruined (along with some other parts on my car) in the brake fire. I thought this was beyond unacceptable but what could I do? Still, I didn't come on here and badmouth him. I bought the parts and then we figured out that the calipers weren't the problem and that it was somewhere upstream. At this point I had enough and I purchased a StopTech system which has worked flawlessly. That seemed to enrage Sean. I guess he wanted me to spend another $7000 of money I don't have to continue to R & D his flawed system.

After all of this happened I still tried to take the high road and not bad mouth Sean, even after he came on here and bad mouthed me. So this is where I stand. I'm $7000 into a $3500 complete brake solution that is useless and very, very dangerous. I haven't been posting replies even though people are calling me an idiot because I was waiting for Sean to make an offer. Sean hasn't done that. In over 100 posts since this started 2 days ago, Sean's only comments have been that fast drivers are easy on brakes (insane) and that I haven't sent him the parts. He never once said that if I send him the parts that he will give me my money back (even partial). For this, I get called an idiot? A *****? I can't drive? And when my friends defend me they get called the same thing.

To try to put an end to this without anymore name calling I will return the parts for a full refund of the system and am willing to chalk up the other thousands of dollars as the cost of doing business Sean. Sean what are you willing to do?

 

[K Adelberg]

Great this is back up! Let's try to stick to facts and less SMACK. I think there is a real value to the Viper Community with this post and most of all anyone with the Roe Racing brake kit can hopefully avoid injury.

 

[kverges]

I have yet to hear what the "upstream" problem was.

The smack and posturing are loads of fun, but I'd sure like to know what the problem was so I don't repeat it. For example, was it even a Roe-supplied part?

The reason I ask is I have StopTech on my RT/10 (the front caliper/rotor kit) and it works flawlessly in part because there are no changes made upstream. The inherently excessive front bias is improved through the use of a front caliper with smaller piston bores. I don't know, but I'll bet the 4-wheel StopTech system (is that what Ken has?) is similar, i.e. all bias issues are addressed by caliper bore sizes. Since there are no upstream changes, it makes it pretty difficult to generate a rear brake lockup problem.

Are or were there upstream changes to Ken's car? If so, what? How did they affect the rear brake problem?

I think this kind of info would be of benefit to the Viper community. Let's have it. Please? Pretty please?

Anyone?

 

[K Adelberg]

The Roe Racing Kit included:
New Master cylinder, brake booster, Wilwood Prop. valve, AP 6-piston front calipers, and PBR (Corvette Front) two piston floating calipers. All steelbraided lines were also supplied. After the first use, PFC 14-inch rotors were added.

This system has been subsequently analyzed by very well qualified engineers of who received graduate degrees. They have questioned the application of his system design for use with a Viper, which is 68% of stock in the front and only 138% in the rear. This was measured with the 14-inch front rotors and 13-inch front rotors would only worsen the imbalance. Sean's intent is to make up for this large bias with a pressure limiting valve and friction of brake pads. This is far from balanced, which has too great a difference to effectively balance with a pressure limiting valve and friction. They even offered to help him, beside the fact that they work for a competing company.

 

[Marc Lublin]

I must admit that I know sh** about brakes, but have been following the story recently. I have seen both sides tell their stories, but never do they respond at the same time. I have bought parts from Sean and everything went very well. I am not in anyones camp and have never spoken with Ken. I do think Ken and Sean both have valid points. Since this situation has aired publicly, I think it should be pretty easy to end publicly. Lets have a real dialogue, Ken asked about return policies, Sean has been quiet, but since I know him as a guy on the up and up, I hope he has just been away from the computer. Guys lay it on the table right now and lets everyone else sit and watch. I hope this thing ends up ok for both! Good luck!

 

[Janni]

The Southeast Regional Rendezvous started yesterday and continues through tomorrow culminating in the Pepsi 400 for those so inclined. Sean is a participant in the Rendezvous, and therefore, most likely away from his computer.

 

[PMUM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K Adelberg:

To try to put an end to this without anymore name calling I will return the parts for a full refund of the system and am willing to chalk up the other thousands of dollars as the cost of doing business Sean. Sean what are you willing to do?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since it's been a day since that was posted and there's been no response does this mean that Sean will do nothing? I think a lot of people (even people that are--shall we say--less than entertained by the smack) are still curious to see the outcome of this. I think it's only fair that since Sean came to this board for an 'opinion' that we get to see his final offer. Maybe his final offer is the same as it was a month ago? That's the way it looks.

Ernie J, you've stated a couple of times that Ron Adee loves his system. If so, then why when Car & Driver interviewed him did he spend half of his time bashing his brakes? If he's had these brakes on for 3 years, and nobody is willing to provide an answer, it's logical to assume that his brakes were on the car. If they weren't then logic would dictate that he pulled them off because he was unhappy.

Where did you and Sean go? You guys were pretty active until the "facts" came out after the smack ended. Even if I were in the "Roe Camp" I'd be really curious to hear your customer service solution. Or is your sudden silence the Complete Customer Service Solution?

Gotta run.....must...smack....elsewhere.....getting......weaker......

 

[K Adelberg]

Marc Lublin, you make a great point! Lets get the whole thing settled! I was more then willing and tried to settle this off-line. Sean came to the board and didn't exactly state all the facts. After getting nowhere I went to the board.

I stand ready to ship the parts back, what will Sean Roe do?

Is it fair to have me wait for months while the system is sold, if it ever sells? If Sean feels there is a value to this failed brake system, is it fair for him to send a refund, full or partial?

 

[Ernie J]

Ken, in response to your post on 7/5/01 sorry for the delay in replying. I've been at the races all weekend. As you suggested I did investigate Ron Adee's brake problems. In case anyone on the board missed Rons post to you it follows:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 80:
PMUM & Ken did anyone ever hear me say I was unhappy with Sean's brake system? It sounds like you resolved my brake problem like you resolved your brake problem. Blaming somebody instead of finding the problem, my problem was the vacuum line from the manifold to the booster. It would collapse with vacuum so sometimes I would have a rock hard pedal with no vacuum (misquoted by Tony Swan in Car & Driver "pedal went right to the floor"). Maybe your problem was simpler to fix than mine but you will never know because you are too busy pointing fingers instead of finding the real problem. I have Sean's system on 2 of my vehicles and have no problems with the components I have purchased from Sean. I have a lot of track time with SCCA, Viper Days, NASA and other track events and strongly promote Sean's system when installed correctly. In the future, please call me direct to get the facts straight. DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. Let's not make this a big deal, this is just my opinion.

Ron Adee<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ken I'm sure glad you asked me to look into Ron's brake problems, I think his assessment of the situation hits the nail right on the head.

 

[kverges]

Is it just me or has no one stated what the exact problem with Ken's brakes was? (and yes I know the rears stayed locked, but I don't know why)

Was it a prop valve problem? Master cylinder problem? Adjustment or installation problem?

And yes, I know that pre'-01 Vipers have very heavy front bias (the '01 has about 5% bias switched to the rear). I have done the calculations and can tell you exactly what the bias numbers are. However, while that may affect performance by making one end lock first, I don't see it making one end stay locked up.

I'd really like to know what the problem was, exactly.

Wanna know my bet?

Someone did not adjust the actuating rod for the master cylinder/brake booster properly and so the master cylinder constantly blocked off the reservoir fluid port, causing the normal thermal expansion of brake fluid due to heat to lock the brakes.

Am I right?

If so, it was not a design problem. If not, what was it? I'd like to avoid similar problems.

Keith

 

[K Adelberg]

SAME AS IN OTHER POST

Ron, I'm glad to hear that your brake system is finally sorted out. Unfortunately, after over 6 months, 2 pairs of ruined brand new tires, 2 wasted track weekends, multiple tow truck rides, 2 near death experiences, one fire, multiple letters, phone calls, emails and $7000 paid to Sean and a mechanic Sean himself deemed more than competent I gave up. I guess I'm the bad guy.

Boris Said's Trans Am car mechanic, StopTech and SEAN HIMSELF have all looked at the installation on this car and haven't found a solution. Don't you dare tell me not to point fingers at a guy that's only offered to sell me more parts and go out of his way to sell my death system. But he is a nice guy...........

Final Score: Ken -$7000, Sean +$4000, Ken-****, Sean-nice guy.

 

[HogWhisperer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kverges:


Snip ... I'd really like to know what the problem was, exactly. .... Snip

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That has never been determined. "Well drawn conclusions" from other vendors but no hard proof of what was wrong. Since the system has not been returned to Sean Roe yet, no inspection by he or the manufacturer has been made. Maybe when some of the rhetoric dies down they can get to the bottom of it.


Cheers!

 

[kverges]

I'm not saying not to point fingers!

I'd just like to know exactly where the finger is aimed (and "East" is all I've heard so far). "Same as other post" tells me nothing. Since the kit appears to include just about everything but brake lines, questions abound. Plus, if it was a master cylinder adjustment problem, then sending the parts back will likely reveal nothing.

And the identity of the installer does not gurantee a product defect. Whoever it was is capable of mistakes and I assume would want to make sure that, if they made an error, they learn from it. If there was a specific part defect, I would assume they would also want to learn from that, so as to avoid the part/compatibility/other problem in the future (I will bet Roe did not manufacture any of the individual components, for example the PBR rear calipers are world-class OEM and aftermarket parts on millions of cars).

My bet stands.

I agree with Paul. Let's get past the rhetoric and hear the facts. That should precede blame in either camp.

 

[K Adelberg]

Keith, I would like to know the cause more than anybody. Problem is, the nearest conclusion I got was that the master/booster relationship is bad. Are they right? Who knows? Was the kit installed properly? An expert mechanic, Stop Tech and Sean Roe seemed to think so. Could it be bad parts? Of course. But Sean's solution of me having to buy more parts was inexcusable.

It seems like once Sean knew I took his kit off the car and bought another that he made up his mind that I wasn't gonna receive a penny. That's why he came on the board and made a "pre-emptive strike". Basically his comments in our last phone conversation. I find it selectively biased how he'll now only come on the board and give out driving pointers and other misc. info, but he won't acknowledge me or my problem anymore.

Again, I have no idea what the problem is with the defective kit. But this is what I DO know. I do know that I've tried and tried to get it to work; I've spent double the price of the kit trying to get it to work and I'm left with a kit that WILL lock up the rear brakes unexpectedly and not release them until the bleeder screws are cracked. I also know that I have not ever been offered any reasonable solution to get me out of this problem.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

My $.02!

A) Safety

1.0 If you are concerned about the safety of a kit or product what are the most important issues?
a) Define the cause of failure?
b) Ask for a refund?
c) Speculate of the failure cause?
d) Other

1.1 How is failure best determined?
a) Have a competitor evaluate the kit and its components?
b) Return the Kit to the supplier for failure analysis?
c) Complain about $$ losses due to some (undefined) failure?
d) Other

B) Business Questions:

1.0 What is the warranty for products used for racing?
a) 1 year
b) 90 days
c) 30 days
d) no warranty

1.1 Procedure to Return Defective Product?
a) Customers option no restrictions?
b) New goods without use and or damage returned for full refund (no re-stocking fee)?
c) Used goods returned for supplier evaluation and determination of action if any.
d) Other

C. Customer Service Question

What would you do if you sold a product and one customer had a problem that was not defined but your product was considered the problem by your customer. Take into consideration that the product required assembly and/or installation.

The customer did not return your product for failure analysis but wanted a refund plus other cost considered the customer considered to be damages caused by the product. The customer has now replaced your product with another supplier.

What would you do as the supplier?
a) Offer a full refund and pay all cost as requested by the customer?
b) Ask for the product to be returned for failure analysis to determine appropriate course of action?
c) Ignore the customer?
d) Other?

It this a Personality contest?

Ken has been to several events in N.CA. He has always been a pleasure to be around.

I have purchased several items from Sean (Installed by Chris Jensen and Dan Cragin) and they all work as advertised.

I have a very positive image of both Ken and Sean and wish them well in resolving this issue.

 

[BurnR8]

Is that $.02 Canadian?

 

[PMUM]

Driving School, could you please reissue the test in True/False format? There's nothing worse than the multiple choice with the dreaded "other"!

Sincerely,
The Lawyer in the Box.

 

[brett]

PMUM,

I bet the test is harder while "hopping on one hand" and simultaneously weaving through traffic cones. I know it's probably "funnier" if read like a fortune cookie with "in bed" at the end of each answer. I also think all "others" should be replaced with:

d)Just blow it off and dream of a land of orange cones.

 

[Jon 98GTS]

The sad part is this: the "others" were replaced with "Have customer buy more parts."

DrivingSchool, Ken IS (and has been) willing to return the parts; he's made the offer 3x in this thread alone. Taking that into account, maybe you should make a new "test." (But no essay questions.)

[Note to Jeff Ellison: Remember what I said about being "wrong"? If not, see the above posts.]

 

[Mike Adams]

I have been reading these post for days and listen'd to everyone's point of view. Everyone has a valid point. Replacing the calipers with new calipers the first time it happened although it had to be done was the wrong thing. Rear brakes should never lock first. The problem has to exist in either the Master cylinder or proportioning valve (wether it is an installation problem or manufacture problem does not matter at this point). Both of these should have been replaced at the same time as the Calipers. The unfortunate part from Ken's point is, it is a life and death situation not something to mess with.

From Sean's point of view he does not make the parts and did not install them but is responsible for what mistakes may happen in installation or manufacture of the parts.

This not a good situation for either party I am sure both are upset with the whole situation.

The good part of the whole thing is no one was hurt.

It sounds like both parties have been patient up to now.

If this happened to me (being in the service industry these things do happen) and I was Sean. I would get the parts back and send all them back to the manufacturer and try to get replacements. Hopefully you use the suppliers enough and defective or not they will try to help you out. If your lucky you will be able to get all your money back to give to Ken. The hard part Ken brings up is it is not fair for him to have to wait for you to sell them either.

Maybe their would be a way to get Ken some of his money back till the problem is figured out. Which may never happen as if may be hard for the manufacuture of the parts to deturmine the problem as it require time to happen and is not an instant failure.

From other posts it is obvious Sean's system has worked for some people and Ken may have gotten one bad part ( what is an acceptable failure rate? ask Firestone .0001% failure rate caused how many tires to be recalled).

I am just making some observations and do not intent to offend anyone. Just hope both party's find a acceptable solution so we can move on to more fun topics like actually drive our cars.

 

[Ernie J]

Fred Kinder, great post. I hope everybody takes your test.
The results are becoming more and more obvious!

 

[SneakyPete]

interesting reading.

 

[STUGOTS]

This is all ******** anyways.
I don't buy it for a second.

 

[1TONY1]

interesting reading.

Not that you are biased

 

[SneakyPete]

interesting reading.

Not that you are biased

Tony,
you have no Idea of how biased I can be.

I am biased at getting a break kit that will work well on the track.