AEM Dyno Results - bone stock 2000 GTS 461ft-lbs.

[Sean McElderry]

Sean,

I'm interested in the AEM for the traction control feature as well as a few others. I have a DLM SC car that puts down 883 RWHP and am wondering what the AEM can do for a car such as mine to increase performance?

-M

The basemap has traction control built in, but you will definitely have to retune that portion of the calibration for your car since you're able to accelerate significantly faster than a stock Viper. The AEM's traction control capabilites would be a perfect match for your car once you are fully tuned.

As far as power gains, with the AEM you have 100% control over your fuel and timing curves, so for WOT, you should be able to gain quite a bit. When I tune cars, the owner and I select a type of fuel that they will use. I then take the car to the limit of that fuel and after that point is reached, I back it off a bit to preserve engine life. The AEM lets you do this safely with complete control over the motor. For your car, you will *definitely* want to install some knock sensors before tuning. Hope that helps!

 

[Sean McElderry]

I am sure you could tie into the O2 wires and get a reading on the AEM guage, I will find out next time I talk with them.

Believe it or not the best way to tune the AEM unit alone is to do a datalog.

I talked with AEM today about this very issue. The wideband controller is built into the board and there are no outputs to control a gauge. On a typical wideband, there is an analog output from the controller which you can run to an EMS or a gauge; with the Viper box, this is not the case. Russ, let us know what AEM says when you talk to them.

 

[Sean McElderry]

Also, I am assuming that different programs can be easily saved/downloaded from the lap top. I am somewhat spoiled by the vec2's ability to quickly change the tune.
Example: when I autocross I have 5 different cards with each pulling out more timing if needed based on traction issues.

Uploading a new calibration takes about 30 seconds with the AEM. But...you'll find that you can use switches in your cabin to control timing as well. You could have multiple switches pull various amounts of timing out on the fly if you like. Or have AEM's traction control do all the work automatically.

For turbo cars, AEM's speed based boost control really helps for straight line traction. The lower the MPH, the lower the boost. As your MPH increases, so does your boost. It works extremely well for drag cars.

For turbo autocross or road race cars, you can use TPS based boost control which lets you control the amount of boost with your right foot. It's very useful for getting just the right amount of control through a corner and power while exiting a corner.

Hope that helps!

 

[Daffy Duck Viper]

Sean,
I'm interested in the AEM for the traction control feature as well as a few others. I have a DLM SC car that puts down 883 RWHP and am wondering what the AEM can do for a car such as mine to increase performance?
-M

The basemap has traction control built in, but you will definitely have to retune that portion of the calibration for your car since you're able to accelerate significantly faster than a stock Viper. The AEM's traction control capabilites would be a perfect match for your car once you are fully tuned.

As far as power gains, with the AEM you have 100% control over your fuel and timing curves, so for WOT, you should be able to gain quite a bit. When I tune cars, the owner and I select a type of fuel that they will use. I then take the car to the limit of that fuel and after that point is reached, I back it off a bit to preserve engine life. The AEM lets you do this safely with complete control over the motor. For your car, you will *definitely* want to install some knock sensors before tuning. Hope that helps!

Gosh but this is such a fascinating new technology for the Viper. Very exciting. I've got notes upon notes of this! I'm particularly excited to hear what you had to say about applications involving supercharged Vipers, seeing as I'm a big fan of www.DougLevinMotorsports.com. I can't wait to read more! Bring it on!!

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[1TONY1]

Sean,

I'm interested in the AEM for the traction control feature as well as a few others. I have a DLM SC car that puts down 883 RWHP and am wondering what the AEM can do for a car such as mine to increase performance?

-M

The basemap has traction control built in, but you will definitely have to retune that portion of the calibration for your car since you're able to accelerate significantly faster than a stock Viper. The AEM's traction control capabilites would be a perfect match for your car once you are fully tuned.

As far as power gains, with the AEM you have 100% control over your fuel and timing curves, so for WOT, you should be able to gain quite a bit. When I tune cars, the owner and I select a type of fuel that they will use. I then take the car to the limit of that fuel and after that point is reached, I back it off a bit to preserve engine life. The AEM lets you do this safely with complete control over the motor. For your car, you will *definitely* want to install some knock sensors before tuning. Hope that helps!

Manny failed to mention that: As I understand it, he no longer uses the stock computer. His DLM car uses (I think) Motec. It would surprise most of us if there are any WOT gains *AT* the same level/safeness of tune on Mannys car.

My autocross and timing reference also applies to fuel type......please elaborate on these timing switches. Sounds like we could have two or three switches that would make the ecm go to different timing levels. Can it appropriately change the fuel curve to match the timing ? I understand the knock sensors, but I'm sure we don't need to count on them for lower octane except as a safe gaurd. Also, I have never heard how the traction control actually works.....are there wheel spin sensors or just mph based changes. MPH based changes do not take into account the type of road surface/traction.
Please also remember, You guys are used to turbos turbos turbos There are VERY few Vipers with turbos. Many more of us have centrifical and screw blowers. I have the Roe screw blower myself. If you could, speak to us in screw/centrifical terms/useage.

Thanks for fielding our questions......the more we know about how everything works, the better.

 

[Jack B]

Tony:

I just bought a VEC2, could you go thru the general setup procedure.

 

[Sean McElderry]

Manny failed to mention that: As I understand it, he no longer uses the stock computer. His DLM car uses (I think) Motec. It would surprise most of us if there are any WOT gains *AT* the same level/safeness of tune on Mannys car.

Gotcha. Both the MoTeC and the AEM will make equivalent power given proper tuning.

My autocross and timing reference also applies to fuel type......please elaborate on these timing switches. Sounds like we could have two or three switches that would make the ecm go to different timing levels. Can it appropriately change the fuel curve to match the timing ? I understand the knock sensors, but I'm sure we don't need to count on them for lower octane except as a safe gaurd. Also, I have never heard how the traction control actually works.....are there wheel spin sensors or just mph based changes. MPH based changes do not take into account the type of road surface/traction.

Yes, the AEM can alter the fuel curve in addition to the timing curve on the fly. You have the option of either adding/subtracting fuel and timing a given amount across the board, or you can use a 3D map to custom tailor your fuel and timing curves everywhere.

And the knock sensors are ESPECIALLY important for low octane. For those running pump gas, which is 10x more volatile than some good race gas, knock sensors are an absolute must in my opinion. The AEM has some of the most advanced knock control on the planet - as an example, one of the daily driver cars I tuned was running perfectly when I left. Over time, his fuel filter started to clog and his car began to run leaner and leaner. During regular driving, this wasn't a problem since O2 feedback corrected for the lack of fuel...but under wide open throttle, he started to develop knock. The AEM immediately detected this, pulled timing, and added fuel. The driver knew something was wrong since I set up his check engine light to warn him of this condition, but the AEM saved his motor in the background using its knock control.

Traction control works off of vehicle speed and engine speed rate of change. AEM's design goal was to make a plug and play solution and using the wheel speed sensors requires additional wiring so they chose not to use that method of traction control.

Please also remember, You guys are used to turbos turbos turbos There are VERY few Vipers with turbos. Many more of us have centrifical and screw blowers. I have the Roe screw blower myself. If you could, speak to us in screw/centrifical terms/useage.

Supercharged and turbocharged cars are actually quite similar from a tuning standpoint. But that works...if you have supercharger specific questions, just let me know.

Thanks for fielding our questions......the more we know about how everything works, the better.

No problem at all!

 

[Chris B]

Chris,

I want to applaud your effort! Way to go. No one else has been able to demonstrate the AEM computer on a Viper. Congratulations for being the first one!

I was in Portland on a business trip about a month ago and went past your shop. If I had known you were into Vipers I would have stopped in. (I thought you were just into ricers.)

Even though the test car you have may not make record amounts of power, what I look at is how much improvement you got over stock. 45HP and 45lbs-ft torque is a great improvement for just changing computers.

Anyway congratulations!

Thanks!!!

For those of you that don't really know who we are, Sean and I have been installing and tuning AEM engine management systems since they first came out for the Supra over 2 years ago. We work hand-in-hand with AEM to promote, distribute and support their products and have installed, tuned and sold over 300 Engine Management Systems for Supras, Civics, RX7s, Eclipses, S2000s, Mustangs, Integras, SC300s, WRXs, MR2s, Del Sols, Preludes, CLs and 240SXs.

We are also AEM's largest distributor for engine management systems and wide-band oxygen sensors and work very hard to provide kits that are completely plug-n-play. Sean has been a major player for AEM and is a tremedous driving force in providing flawless vehicle performance and reliability with these units.

We will continue to follow these threads and provide information and support to everybody.

Here are some pics of our facilities....

Here's Sean and Jason in the TorqueFreaks waiting area. Sean's on the right, Jason is on the left.

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Here's Joe in between phone calls.

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John working on a MK3 Supra. (in between working on my car)

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Amber in her office....

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Here's Jeff....

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Josh moving boxes.... Nice butt shot.

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Here's Tom..

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And me taking a much needed break..

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[Chris B]

Viper parked in the showroom..

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Some cars in our shop

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Some of the parts we keep in stock

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Josh at his desk in the overly large call center

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Some of our customers cars kept real safe while they're waiting for parts.

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More shop pics..

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Can you say AEM?

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The Dyno Area..

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The shipping Area..

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Part of the shop.

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The showroom (minus car)

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And finally... outside.

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[Daffy Duck Viper]

Very nice intro there. Thanks for taking the time. It's good and informative to see the people behind the name. Makes it feel more real and personal rather than some distant corporate entity.

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[RedGTS]

Does the AEM setup use any adaptives like the factory PCM? I know adaptives are a pain when you're trying to keep a tune just right for a given set of circumstances, but if you do away with them, how do you compensate for changes in the environment (like 40 degree dry air in the winter versus 90 degree humid air in the summer)?

 

[DChan415]

Does the AEM setup use any adaptives like the factory PCM? I know adaptives are a pain when you're trying to keep a tune just right for a given set of circumstances, but if you do away with them, how do you compensate for changes in the environment (like 40 degree dry air in the winter versus 90 degree humid air in the summer)?

It sure does... it has more of them than you could ever imagine. And they are all infinitely adjustable. There are so many of them you'll love it but you'll hate it. There are correction factors for the main maps, then there are correction factors for those correction factors, then there are settings that will affect those correction factors, and then there are settings to put those settings that affect those correction factors in different orders on your screen, and then there are ways to change the colors of those and rename them on your screen. And then you can view all of it in any format you want, metric, SAE, psi, bar,... Anyway, they work really well though .

 

[Sean McElderry]

Does the AEM setup use any adaptives like the factory PCM? I know adaptives are a pain when you're trying to keep a tune just right for a given set of circumstances, but if you do away with them, how do you compensate for changes in the environment (like 40 degree dry air in the winter versus 90 degree humid air in the summer)?

It sure does... it has more of them than you could ever imagine. And they are all infinitely adjustable. There are so many of them you'll love it but you'll hate it. There are correction factors for the main maps, then there are correction factors for those correction factors, then there are settings that will affect those correction factors, and then there are settings to put those settings that affect those correction factors in different orders on your screen, and then there are ways to change the colors of those and rename them on your screen. And then you can view all of it in any format you want, metric, SAE, psi, bar,... Anyway, they work really well though .

Now THAT is a nice explanation!

 

[Sean McElderry]

Does the AEM setup use any adaptives like the factory PCM? I know adaptives are a pain when you're trying to keep a tune just right for a given set of circumstances, but if you do away with them, how do you compensate for changes in the environment (like 40 degree dry air in the winter versus 90 degree humid air in the summer)?

Different adaptives apply to different types of tuning. For example, on a speed density setup, you need to compensate for various intake air temperatures, but not for altitude. I've tuned a few cars in Colorado where the altitude can vary by 5000 feet in a matter of 10 miles, and the AEM compensates flawlessly. And for the different ambient air temps, the AEM can alter the fuel and timing curves on the fly.

 

[1TONY1]

Hey Jack, Give me a call so I don't hijack this thread. H- 706-935-5109
m-423-902-1982 I will be glad to help.

 

[Chris B]

Current status on AEM EMS...

We were having trouble getting the cars idle motor to park properly with the AEM for a couple weeks causing spurrating idle on startup. This problem has been resolved with some minor tweaks to the program and the car has been running flawlessly ever since. The EMS now has to reset the idle motor on every start-up, which seems to work well. This had to be done because the ECU doesn't control the main relay and couldn't keep track of where the idle motor was like the stock one did.

I believe this was the last glitch prior to the general release.

The car runs phenominal now after some more tuning by TorqueFreaks. Any Viper owner in the Northwest that wants to stop by our shop in Portland, OR, I'll let them take my Viper for a test drive if they'll post their opinion on this forum. Everything about the driveability and powerband on the car is improved. The knock sensor kit works flawlessly.

Once this unit is released, I'm sure there will be plenty more questions, so feel free to post on this forum and we'll be glad to help you guys out.

Take care,
Chris.

 

[Russ M]

Chris,

AEM is trying to replicate the issue you were having with idle on my car and so far its perfect. You sure its not just a problem with the motor or something?

PS. I want your knock sensor harness

 

[1TONY1]

Russ, Chris, Sean, I am not posting this to be negative or to make AEM look bad. I have been looking forward to this box for quite a while (even if I wanted a lower price point) While I value his opinion...it doesn't change mine, but it does make me wonder why I haven't heard more negitive stuff. Maybe I need to search the Supra boards. I would like for one of you guys to address his response back to me. Thanks.
This is a question I asked of a Supra guy that I know online. He would be known by at least 75% of Supra owners that were performance minded....very well known guy and deep into supras. I asked him: What management do they run on their cars and who out of their group tunes them.
His reply (with some things removed because I didn't ask his permission to repost)

Whats up Tony! My car : VPC, SAFC Just piggy-back stuff. *****. I dont have anything good to say about aem. There are alot of aem equipped supras out there and its been out for close to 2 years and only a hand full of them are running to their potential. Lots of bugs still to work out . Seems that the only cars that are working right are the ones that Jason from aem is tuning . Dont get me wrong though , its GONNA be a great setup and a hell of alot cheaper than most any other stand alone out there. I think if I were you I would SELL MY VIPER AND GET A SUP........I mean , wait and see how it works on some other Vipers. A lot of the aem supra owners are having so much trouble getting their [******] figured out that they are going back to their old vpc / safc stuff. I see it on the boards all the time.

 

[Russ M]

Russ, Chris, Sean, I am not posting this to be negative or to make AEM look bad. I have been looking forward to this box for quite a while (even if I wanted a lower price point) While I value his opinion...it doesn't change mine, but it does make me wonder why I haven't heard more negitive stuff. Maybe I need to search the Supra boards. I would like for one of you guys to address his response back to me. Thanks.
This is a question I asked of a Supra guy that I know online. He would be known by at least 75% of Supra owners that were performance minded....very well known guy and deep into supras. I asked him: What management do they run on their cars and who out of their group tunes them.
His reply (with some things removed because I didn't ask his permission to repost)

Whats up Tony! My car : VPC, SAFC Just piggy-back stuff. *****. I dont have anything good to say about aem. There are alot of aem equipped supras out there and its been out for close to 2 years and only a hand full of them are running to their potential. Lots of bugs still to work out . Seems that the only cars that are working right are the ones that Jason from aem is tuning . Dont get me wrong though , its GONNA be a great setup and a hell of alot cheaper than most any other stand alone out there. I think if I were you I would SELL MY VIPER AND GET A SUP........I mean , wait and see how it works on some other Vipers. A lot of the aem supra owners are having so much trouble getting their [******] figured out that they are going back to their old vpc / safc stuff. I see it on the boards all the time.

Tony,

I have dealt with this type of negative attitude for a while from many people that bought stand alone fuel management units. The problem is always the same, its the man tuning or attempting to.

Notice he said any car that Jason tunes runs good, and believe me there are many people out there now that can tune the AEM as it should be.

At this point the only negative point on the AEM unit is the idle hang up with only 1 test car.

PS. I discused the posibility of hooking up an external air/fuel guage, and at this point it looks like a no go. They are working on something in the near future, but it has not been announced yet. What you can do is get their Guage and mount another sensor, or even attempt to tie into the current ones.

 

[1TONY1]

Thanks Russ. I have my Aust W/B in car, but it would be nice to make it portable for tuning other cars ..... I can deal with it either way. I know AEM does a class, I heard it's a two day course. Do they only do that in house or could a few of us catch one of the tuners out on the road ?

 

[Chris B]

Russ, Chris, Sean, I am not posting this to be negative or to make AEM look bad. I have been looking forward to this box for quite a while (even if I wanted a lower price point) While I value his opinion...it doesn't change mine, but it does make me wonder why I haven't heard more negitive stuff. Maybe I need to search the Supra boards. I would like for one of you guys to address his response back to me. Thanks.
This is a question I asked of a Supra guy that I know online. He would be known by at least 75% of Supra owners that were performance minded....very well known guy and deep into supras. I asked him: What management do they run on their cars and who out of their group tunes them.
His reply (with some things removed because I didn't ask his permission to repost)

Whats up Tony! My car : VPC, SAFC Just piggy-back stuff. *****. I dont have anything good to say about aem. There are alot of aem equipped supras out there and its been out for close to 2 years and only a hand full of them are running to their potential. Lots of bugs still to work out . Seems that the only cars that are working right are the ones that Jason from aem is tuning . Dont get me wrong though , its GONNA be a great setup and a hell of alot cheaper than most any other stand alone out there. I think if I were you I would SELL MY VIPER AND GET A SUP........I mean , wait and see how it works on some other Vipers. A lot of the aem supra owners are having so much trouble getting their [******] figured out that they are going back to their old vpc / safc stuff. I see it on the boards all the time.

Good question Itony1. VPC/GCC or SAFC is a standard setup on a Supra and is VERY reliable because the Supra has awesome knock sensors and the stock computer pulls out timing at any hint of knock and keeps the timing out for quite some time. The stock computer from a BPU setup also loves to run very rich. I ran this setup on mine for several years and managed to make 783rwhp on my Supra.

I then switched to the AEM V.73 (2.5 years ago) which had numerous bugs, not to mention I had grounding issues with my car. I starved the fuel pumps at 32psi of boost on accident at an NHRA event blowing that motor up, crank walked a motor due to extended cranking which destroyed the thrust bearings in that motor, had a rod bearing fail probably due to hydro-locking the motor a few times killing that motor. After all of this I was pretty frustrated with my Supra.

Then AEM came out with V89, and I took the map that Sean had made for his Supra and uploaded it into mine. From that point forward I have never been happier with the car. We take VPC Supras every day and convert them into AEM monsters. AEM later came out with V94, then V1.0 then V1.03 which has a ton more options and is very reliable.

A year ago, people were still concerned about the AEM. Now, everybody is running it. Remember a very important point, the AEM has thousands of parameters and hundreds of tables that all must be set up perfectly. We've had the luxury of re-tuning many cars that the prior owner took to some repair shop and the car barely ran afterwards. I could say how they felt about the AEM before and after, but you can read their opinions for yourself.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/showtestimonialmain.asp

The AEM gives you the capability to make your Viper more reliable, more powerful, smoother, have better fuel economy, provide for perfect tuning with larger injectors, turbos, superchargers and provides for flawless knock control with our plug n play dual knock sensor setup. Everything about your car is available at your fingertips. Sean turned the fans on sooner so my Viper didn't run quite so hot, gave the car more off idle response, better throttle response, more power, better fuel economy, smoother idle and smoother decel without the popping noises out the back. If you're running superchargers or turbochargers and using the stock computer that has no idea what boost is, you're flirting with disaster. In the best case, you're just unable to optimize power and driveability. In the worst case, too much timing, or too lean a mixture due to any number of reasons will damage and destroy your motor.

There will always be people running the VPC/GCC combo in some car. As more and more cars are getting tuned "well" with the AEM, more and more people are giving up their VPC black boxes and using the new technologies that are now available to them.

Take care,
Chris.

 

[Torquemonster]

Great tuners will hopefuly always be a hot commodity. If a stand alone system was so easy to use that anyone could perfect it - it'd be too basic to get the kind of results an expert system can give. There are no "magic" chips unless you have a standard engine.

AEM was never designed to be a basic DYI project for dummies. I like the fact it requires tuning skill and a 2 day training course just to get familiar with it. I think AEM are on the right track in being somewhere between piggy back and MOTEC.

For the street, I think it will prove much better than MOTEC. For a start, I understand that AEM can run 10 cylinders on sequential injection, MOTEC can't - which is why the Comp Coupe could not be homologated for the street. For the track - I won't be surprised to see AEM get similar results to what a MOTEC could.

The end results will be there for those good enough to get them. Like anything - bad tuners will give it a bad wrap, but the good ones will create some local legends.... and that's the way it should be.

Remember - it is not all about top end peak power - everything under that is what you have to live with everyday - right down to how it drives in traffic in all conditions you expect to meet.

Of course some like a hot rod that pops and barks, and gives you grief once in a while..... but once you are passed about 21 years old, that gets old if you keep getting spanked by a smooth car with no bad habits.

Those with concerns will wait and see, but I think there will be some great rewards for those willing to be in first provided they choose their tuner well.

Like the Statue of Liberty - perfection requires patience and it won't be done in a New York minute!

 

[Daniel Cragin/DC Performance Inc]

Here is some information that might help. AEM has worked extensively on the base map for this system. We lent them a car for a total of three months. I have been driving this car for another two months and giving them feedback. They sent pre-production units to other tuners (like Chris) and the product is even better. We are perfecting the idle and cold start maps and I expect the productions units to be available soon.

 

[Sean McElderry]

Whats up Tony! My car : VPC, SAFC Just piggy-back stuff. *****. I dont have anything good to say about aem. There are alot of aem equipped supras out there and its been out for close to 2 years and only a hand full of them are running to their potential. Lots of bugs still to work out . Seems that the only cars that are working right are the ones that Jason from aem is tuning . Dont get me wrong though , its GONNA be a great setup and a hell of alot cheaper than most any other stand alone out there. I think if I were you I would SELL MY VIPER AND GET A SUP........I mean , wait and see how it works on some other Vipers. A lot of the aem supra owners are having so much trouble getting their [******] figured out that they are going back to their old vpc / safc stuff. I see it on the boards all the time.

I hear quotes like this all the time from customers of mine before they go AEM. It's typically caused by either a poor tune on their car, or a lack of understanding or knowledge of the AEM. I can honestly say that once the AEM is installed and tuned by a reputable tuner, the customer *never* goes back to the piggybacks. I have a 100% success ratio here - not a single customer of mine has gone back to piggybacks after I tuned their car. There are several good tuners out there and having a qualified professional tune your car makes all the difference in the world.

 

[1TONY1]

Thanks guys. I hope I can figure out those 1000's of maps/screens on my car