Antifreeze ?????

Don Hiltz

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I've spoken with my Viper tech and he stated that unless all the green antifreeze is drained out of the system, the red will form a gel with what's remaining (of the red) and foul up the cooling system.

Since it's virtually impossible to drain all the coolant out, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.........

Don
 
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VIPER BAZ UK

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Thank you for contacting your viper tech for me that was very kind ....
All the best
BAZ
 

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I've spoken with my Viper tech and he stated that unless all the green antifreeze is drained out of the system, the red will form a gel with what's remaining (of the red) and foul up the cooling system.

Since it's virtually impossible to drain all the coolant out, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.........

Don

This is a typical response of a tech who just doesnt want to be bothered with the time it takes. I have done coolant swaps to Mopar 5-year (red) on over 15 Vipers since last spring time. Never had a problem with any of them. you just have to take your time and FLUSH the system, 3 or more times. drain the green, flush, and fill with distilled water ONLY. run for 10. drain, repeat. repeat. repeat. drain again, fill system with red, 1/2 of total capacity, top off with distilled to get a true 50/50. run car with this 50/50 for a day or two, drain, and refill one last time with a 50/50 mix to be safe. Then you are done!

Trust me, I have taken apart cooling systems which I had swapped, many months after it was done- they were PRISTINE inside. if you follow the directions above, you will be fine.

PS- STAY AWAY FROM DEXCOOL. It is a radiator killer! (especially Al ones!)
 

Jay Herbert

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I've spoken with my Viper tech and he stated that unless all the green antifreeze is drained out of the system, the red will form a gel with what's remaining (of the red) and foul up the cooling system.

Since it's virtually impossible to drain all the coolant out, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.........

Don

I've heard similar stories about the red antifreeze and nasty stories about DexCool. Is it worth all the effort mentioned above to go to red? Why not just get some water wetter?

What about yellow?
 

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I've spoken with my Viper tech and he stated that unless all the green antifreeze is drained out of the system, the red will form a gel with what's remaining (of the red) and foul up the cooling system.

Since it's virtually impossible to drain all the coolant out, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.........

Don

I've heard similar stories about the red antifreeze and nasty stories about DexCool. Is it worth all the effort mentioned above to go to red? Why not just get some water wetter?

What about yellow?

A lot of confusion over "Red" antifreeze. Dexcool is what gave "red" a bad name. (and no wonder, it *****) Mopar Red on the other hand, is a modified version of green, a hybrid between Dexcool and Green, taking the best characteristics of both. .

In my opinion, yes, it is worth it. Green antifreeze is GARBAGE IMHO. It contains a HUGE silicate pack thay ultimatly precipitates out and coats overthing, thicker every time you do a coolant change. In our engines, this means a lot because the silicates slow down heat transfer. The red coolants, on the other hand, contain smaller silicate packs, but utilize other corrosion inhibitors as well. this keeps deposits at a minimum. After pulling an engine apart which contained Red for one year, there was not ONE sign of a deposit, anywhere...something green would have shown.

The problem with Dexcool is it contains NO silicates, and the other inhibitors actually can cuase damage in certain cases... along with many other problems.

Honestly, I have no experiance with yellow, though I have heard it is just like red, through a different manufacturer.
 

ViperJoe

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Isn't most of the "old" stuff "yellow / green" (Zerex, Prestone)?

I'm not a fan of this new fangled OAT (organic acid technology) 5/100k / red/pink stuff myself.

FWIW - GM had some problems with intake gaskets on suburbans and pick ups and a lot of folks I know were told by the dealer to flush out the "new" technology stuff and go to the "old" technology stuff.
 

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ViperJoe- Yep. Green is the choice of most automakers of the past, as well as some of the present... almost entirely because it is cheaper. you know how the automakers are when it comes to saving a buck a car! God forbid they make all cars last until 500,000 miles! The recent trend to "red" is not only a selling point, but the extra dollar they have to spend is made up by not having to replace as many parts under warranty... I guess they finally saw past the end of their noses.
 

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You should never use antifreeze.

Antifreeze hinders the performance of your engine. Think about it.

If your entire radiator has frozen water in it, then it will make the air cold that passes through it. When this cold air is sucked in through your intakes, (assuming you took out your airbox) you will get much colder air into your TB. This will make your car much faster.

If you still have your stock air box, you should get an aluminum radiator, and steel braided hoses. Then, pour liquid nitrogen into your radiator. This will keep everything really cold and you will gain tons of horsepower. Also, if you have beer in your trunk, and it has been sitting all day... you can tie wrap it behind your radiator, and then drive for one mile. Afterwards, your beer will be nice and cold and ready to drink... which will also make your car faster since you will be drunk and unconcerned for your safety.

Mike
 

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Now i'm confussed all i want to do is put my car back together and drive it so can i use this comma antifreeze if i flush it properly??
http://www.commaoil.com/Product%20Pages/Coolantswinter/xstreamredcon.htm

My first response would be "yes", but since I honestly know nothing about that particular coolant, I dont know if I would trust it. If it is a dex-cool-like red coolant, I would NOT use it, but if it is Mopar-Like, then it is fine. no way to really tell though, as no one listed their ingredients! I would say go with what you KNOW works. order a palet of Mopar 5-year if you have to, and keep it in your basement.
 

Ron

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First off, Dexcool is not crap. It's the typical old wives tale that gets told again and again until it becomes truth. GM has been using Dexcool exclusively in all of their product since 1996 (except for Saturn which began in 1997). That's 8 years and millions of vehicles. They must be real idiots over at GM.....

The real reason Dexcool got an undeserved bad rap is:

"There were some cases with the GM 4.3 V-6 engine, where the cooling systems would fail if the system was run low with DexCool. The uncovered iron surfaces in the engine (due to low coolant) would develop surface rust (corrosion protection is maintained only by direct contact with coolant) and then that rust would wash into the system as coolant sloshed around in the engine. As the DexCool built up red rust particulates it would foul the sealing surface of the radiator cap and cause it to unseat and exacerbate the low coolant condition with overheating due to loss of pressurization. Unfortunately, the coolant supplement GM added at the time to all production vehicles (used by GM for many years with green and Dexcool coolants) was viewed as detrimental to this particular failure mode as the fibers (that would normally seal a leak) would coagulate with the red rust particulates and make the cap seal unseat even worse. For this reason the coolant supplement / sealer was eliminated from production."

*****************************

DEX-COOL Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant.
By Scott Mueller

"A revolutionary new type of long life engine coolant is now being used in all GM cars and trucks. It is called Dex-Cool, and can be distinguished by it's unique orange color. Dex-Cool is manufactured for GM by Texaco Havoline, and is rated to last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first.

Dex-Cool is an Ethylene Glycol based high performance coolant that contains unique corrosion inhibitors, which are different from anything else on the market. Dex-Cool is vastly superior to conventional coolants, which use silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrites, nitrates, and amine additives to eliminate corrosion. These additives are abrasive to water pump seals, and silicates are especially unstable and drop out of solution and form a gel after time. All of these conventional inhibitors deplete after a short time, which is why conventional coolant must be changed every year.

The unique corrosion inhibitor technology in Dex-Cool is based on the use of two organic acids, which are synergistic and combine to form carboxylates. Texaco refers to this as Organic Acid Technology (OAT), or Carboxylate Technology. The corrosion inhibitors used in Dex-Cool deplete very slowly thus eliminating the need for traditional additives, or frequent change intervals.

Note that contrary to what some may say (or write), you can indeed mix Dex-Cool and conventional coolant with no ill effects. However, if there is more than 10% of conventional coolant in the system this will reduce the concentration of the Carboxylate such that conventional coolants change intervals must be followed. In other words, if you mix it, you can't leave it in for 100,000 miles or 6 years, but instead should treat a mix just like conventional coolant and change it every year until the concentration of Dex-Cool is over 90%."

******************************

Am I saying that everyone should switch their Vipers to Dexcool? Absolutely not. I'd recommend staying with what the factory put in it. Warranty claims could be difficult otherwise. Do I use Dexcool? Yes. Have I had any problems? No. I've used it in a 1994 Ford Taurus, a 1970 Pontiac Trans Am and a 1994 Chrysler T&C, and ran about 50,000 miles with it on the Ford and Chrysler. All came with green from the factory. Results are perfect radiator cores, clean thermostats and housings and 100% corrosion free water pumps (observed while changing hoses). I drained the green from the system (including the block), refilled with distilled, ran until warm, cooled, drained and repeated. Poured in straight Dexcool to 50% of capacity and topped off with distilled.

Lastly, I've read SAE white papers on Dexcool, where taxi cabs were run with 50/50 mixes of Dexcool and green with no adverse affects.

Better than green? Better than Chrysler orange? Worth the effort to swap? Your call.....
 

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RON- I am not talking from a "wives tale". I am talking from EXPERIENCE. Dexcool RUINED one of MY radiators. As in, I saw the direct results of it, and even confirmed my suspicions of it with Ron Davis. This is what I was even told by Ron Davis, who deals with radiators 24/7: "Though it is not officially written anywhere or spoken of directly, we have recieved MANY radiators that were ruined by what appeared to be electrolysis, even though none was present or testable in the system. Coincidentally, DexCool was used in virtually all of them. Chalk up another one to dexcool, your radiator is toast."

I dont know of any bad dexcool experiences in stock cars, but I certainly will never use it again, especially not with an Alum. radiator.
 

Ron

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Daniel,

I understand and appreciate why you'd feel they way you do given your own experience, but many here have used Dex-Cool in their Vipers for years and thousands of miles with no ill effects including Tom (fuel/oil).

But honestly, if it was so bad why would GM still be using it? If it was so bad, why do the SAE papers say it's acceptable?

Again, I believe that for most the benefits aren't great enough to hassle with the change, since unless it was installed from the factory you really can't take full advantage of the extended life. But I don't believe that in an otherwise sound cooling system that it will ruin it anymore that green would.
 

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After reading the article in Car/Driver months ago (the month that had the 50th ann. Vette on the cover), I switched to Zerex G-05. It has the characteristics of the red but is compatible with the factory Green. It's used as standard fill in Chryslers, Ford's and Benz. It's colored different when sold at Autozone, it's yellow and packaged in a Gold container.

I did this because I was getting better quality than Green but didn't have to worry about the mix with the old stuff. I did flush it almost 8 times though which was probably overkill.
 

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RON- I honestly dont know what to tell you. It killed my radiator, period. who knows, There may be something inherent with RD radiators that makes them susceptibled to the effects of Dexcool. Even still, is it worth risking? nope. I switched to Mopar 5-year with my new radiator, and have NO signs of electrolisys, in over 4 times the length of time it took for DexCool to kill the first one. That right there is enough for me to put Dex on my ****-list. It could have something to do with the use of a Stainless Steel oil cooler in the RD rads, maybe the coolant has a reaction with it that others dont. (and maybe GM doesnt use any SS anywhere, so they dont even care)

I am not saying it is "so bad", just unacceptable in certain situations. I just dont think its worth using, in light of other coolant types.
 

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Daniel,

If I were to change coolant today, I'd probably do as you did. All of the Dexcool folklaw would have scared me. But, since I switched long before I read the press, and since I've discussed it at length with Tom and since I've read the real test data, and since I've had great results, (no water pump failures, no corrosion at all) I continue to happily use it. Can't fault you for your opinion at all. I just wanted to challenge your blanket unscientific indictment of what I believe is a scientifically proven good product.
 

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RON- that is your choice, you can do as you wish, just as I will.

What I cant understand though, is why you keep refering to the "myth" portion of the story? I am NOT talking about myths, I am NOT talking about science, I am talking about REAL WORLD. I dont care what science or myths have to say about Dexcool, really. I saw what it CAN do, myself. I confirmed what I saw with people who have real world experience with the stuff, all the time. they CONFIRMED what I saw.

You can call my opinion an "unscientific blanket indictment" if you want. But whether or not you want to believe it, Dexcool CAN cause problems. They can test it all they want, but when it is put into REAL LIFE with different variables, problems can arise. It wont be the first, or the last time science has made a mistake.

I was all for Dexcool when I first tried it- I even put it in customers' cars. as soon as I had an issue with it and confirmed, I went back and offered every customer a swap to Mopar. I will NEVER recomend it again for use in a Viper. Dexcool had its shot with me, it failed when it cost me almost $1000 for a new radiator.
 

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And I thought the colour thing was as simple as a dye chosen to promote a particular manufacturers product !!

I've always used good quality ethylene glycol coolants (with no methanol) from aftermarket suppliers and never had any problem. Currently my Viper has Bluecol 4 year antifreeze and I havn't had any cooling issues.

Do I need to look into this whole coolant thing a bit further or can I safely trust the major antifreeze manufacturers and packagers to supply an aluminium block friendly coolant?
 

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Joel,

I still would still say, stick with what the manufacturer installed. At least there you can conservatively say, "I've done no damage".

Daniel, I say unscientific because though you and other have witnessed a symptom of something, only true chemical analysis, long term controlled studies and other scientific activities can undenable prove Dexcool is the direct cause of the problem you have experienced. Again, why is GM still using it, why are there SAE studies supporting Dexcool? Perhaps there is something unique in your application that reacts with Dexcool and perhaps you're right that in that application it contrindicated, but you can not say that product is wrong for everyone, that it's garbage and no one should ever use it. (Admittedly I might be exaggerating your comments)

I'm not an expert on antifreeze, but I have spoken with two that are and their opinion and experience is what I base my opinion on.

(I hope somebody finds this banter entertaining, because I'm about talked out...)
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Since I'm no longer employed by Texaco (or ChevronTexaco) one would think I could tell the truth behind all the gory stories of how DEX-COOL really did kill GM SUVs, Saturn heater cores, Detroit Diesel low coolant sensors, Cat radiators... but guess what? Every bad news story was based on underfilling at the factory line, admixing with something that wasn't supposed to be in there, bad batches of electric sensors, or panic created by the competition (Fleetguard.)

After years of testing (including my '92 Dodge van and '96 Dakota, both with a 5.2L, and both on the *original* DEX-COOL coolant charge) including 100,000 miles in 13 month trooper and NYC taxi tests using 4.6L Crown Vics, million mile HD diesels tests with Cat, DD and Macks, recycled glycol tests in 3.3L Dodge Intrepids (I bought one after the test, still has DEX-COOL, now at 170K miles), racing applications (ummm... think of the teams that Texaco sponsored and all their Super-Whammo-Dyne radiators they use.) I've had it in my '94 Viper since I got it in '98 with 20K miles, and 50K miles later, I'm still using the OEM head gaskets.

I've never seen data indicating OAT caused a problem. I have seen how easy it was for word of mouth to become the "telephone" game and suddenly one experience becomes gospel. I have seen how desperate the green coolant manufacturers became in defending theirs and disparaging the red, pink, and there was a blue colored OAT also. Interesting that the "word" is one can't mix the two, yet the hybrid OAT (nitrite-containing OAT; old plus new technology) is OK.

I DO NOT mean to pick on anybody, because I've also seen how engine oils cause the power brakes to fail! One test engine oil had high volatility, passed vapors through the PCV system, condensed in the intake manifold, plugged the hose to the power brake booster... power brakes failed. If someone has direct experience that DEX-COOL caused a radiator failure, geez, I've seen so many good results, I have to think that the failure was due to an odd, round-a-bout relationship where other factors were involved, too. Let's also think that big conservative, risk and publicity-averse company like Chevron (now the "Texaco" is silent) isn't going to keep putting the stuff on the shelf if there is a shred of doubt that they'd have any liability issues. In fact, when it came out, it was limited to 5 years/100,000 miles, now it's 5 years/150,000 miles. What's that tell you?
 

95Viper

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Not to beat this to death but would someone clarify what the yellow Zerex G05 is? I bought it at Autozone in a gold container and read in Car/Driver that it is factory fill.

Is it really Mopar 5 year but tinted differently for the aftermarket?
 
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