Are Vipers too radical for most people??

[Viperfreak2]

In my opinion, what a bunch of crap. The Viper should not be 'desirable' to the masses. To add heads-up displays and cruise control, to make the ride smooth and comfy, to eliminate the race-car feel.....sounds like a Corvette. In my humble opinion, BWright, drama and refinement is in your nature. Most of us would say "Have the money to buy a Viper". You tended to add just a touch too much refinement to your 'essay' above when you said "with the available financial capacity to purchase a Viper". We don't need refinement in a car with balls. That's what causes the adrenaline rush! It's difficult for some people to understand. To each his own. Uninformed belief? I've owned 3 Vipers. I used to be a Porsche ******. Worked at a Mercedes dealership. Currently work for BMW. The Z4 3.0 has performance and refinement. I have one of those too. Just because you don't see the Viper as 'desirable as it could and should be' doesn't mean you should come into the SRT area and personally attack us and our machines.

 

[Bwright]

I am mystified by your response on a number of levels. First of all you accuse me of drama in a near hysterical response to my post. Like all others, the Viper is a car, not the cure to cancer. Calm down. If you knew anything about my history of posts on this site you would know that some of my first involved defending the SRT-10 when there was a near revolt over its looks. I never said anything about a heads-up display or cruise control and in fact was not specific in what I meant by refinement. For the record, neither of those items even occurred to me. You simply assumed you knew what I meant. You do not and you know what they say about assumptions. You did manage, however, to prove my point on the emotional response of all too many Viper owners to the notion of change. Rarely level discussion, just outbursts. Viper engineers and team members do monitor this site and the opinions of owners means a great deal to them. One of the points in my post was that Viper owners need to be more careful about what they say about the car here.

FYI, an expensive high performance two seat sports car will never be desirable to the "masses." Numerically there are approximately 16 million new cars sold here every year. This makes Viper sales approximately 1/100th of 1% of sales. Even if they doubled sales they still would not be a car for the masses. Making the ride smooth and comfy? Where did I say that or was that another of your assumptions? Since you bring it up however that is the same sort of short-sighted thinking that I referenced when I said refinement and performance are not mutually exclusive. Bob Lutz himself alluded to same when he said that for what a Viper costs owners should have it all. Mechanically speaking one does not necessarily negate the other. One example, Any Corvette driver will tell you that the stiff heavy run-flats on the standard Vette are a performance compromise. However, Dodge in conjunction with the Viper's tire manufacturer has produced a run-flat that not only embodies the best technology to protect drivers of the Viper from the many dangers inherent to stopping an expensive car by the side of road to change a flat but still manages to turn in lateral grip numbers that continue to set records in virtually every test it enters. All this while reducing the overall weight of the car. Dodge has more engineering talent than I think you give them credit for.

Uninformed belief indeed. This because with Viper production as low as it is there are not many opportunities for potential buyers to learn about the car beyond what they read in magazines and some passing interaction with an owner they may see on the street or even know personally. However, the bulk of potential buyers will get their information from magazines. If you read the average magazine's take on the Viper then compare it to what owners say then obviously there is some disconnect. Therefore the commonly held beliefs by people who have never driven the car can be reasonably described as uninformed.

Just because I don't see the Viper as desirable? Is English not your first language? I said the Viper was not as desirable as it could and should be. I never said it was undesirable. In my first paragraph I described the PERCEPTIONS about the car. In the second paragaph I again said the lack of items was PERCEIVED. In the third paragraph I suggested that their should be an honest examination of the things people have complained about in magazine tests since they form a widespread opinion of the car.

On this site I have repeatedly acknowledged the greatness of the Viper both on and off the track. Recheck the first sentence in the last paragraph of my first post. Personally attack "us" and our machines? You give reaching a whole new definition.

The simple reality is a number of people who might be Viper owners pass on the car for reasons which are all too often rooted in opinion, not fact. Again, the bulk of these opinions are formed through what they read in magazines with a relatively limited few formed by passing interaction with a limited pool of owners. Since the thread was a question on the Viper being too radical for most people it does not really serve much of a purpose to poll owners as they obviously are largely content with the cars. The discussion is better served by examining the commonly held beliefs of non-owners and examining the reasons for same.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Not gonna back and forth with you. You don't understand. The cruise control, heads-up display, comfy ride....those are refinements that could be added to the Viper. All these are availble on the Vette, a more refined, practical car. This would make it less of what 'makes' it a Viper. The mission from the beginning was simple, a modern Cobra.
I agree with some of your speculations. Others I don't. Try looking at it this way: Car mags tend to frown on the Lexus SC430. Why? Too smooth, too refined, and no real personality. Would anyone deny that the Lexus is a better car than the Viper in every way but styling and performance? It's also less expensive. Why would anyone buy a Viper if a better alternative is available? Just what the mags said. Boring. Look WAY into the future. Cars will eventually drive themselves. That's as far away from a AC Cobra as you could possibly get. Some of us (Viper owners here in the VCA site especially!) aren't interested. So when you type LONG paragraphs about your opinion, don't expect many in here to agree. I, for one, want a rough, raw, loud, fast, weekend thrill ride. I'll drive something else if I'm not in the mood (rarely). By the way, the word hysterical should be used only when speaking face to face. No one can look at typing on a website and read emotion into it. I assure you, I was as calm then as I am now. Refine the car, add gimmicks, lower the price to make it attainable? Imagine Lamborghini sold 900,000 Murcielagos a year at $50K a copy. How special would that be? The mags also say that the Lambo is getting a little too refined. The SRT is a huge leap in refinement over the early RT-10 Vipers with its glass windows and real softtop, but it drives just like the original, and that's what I was looking for.

 

[YouWish]

Are Vipers too radical for most people? Not really. Truth is radical is not the word that describes what most people think when they hear the word Viper. Sad fact is that most simply perceive the car as an unsophisticated one-trick pony that will be difficult and unpleasant to live with. Viper's are usually perceived as cars you have to adapt to. When contemplating paying a considerable sum for such a car, few buyers today are prepared to do so. There are ready examples of this. One of these examples even includes the Viper itself. There are easily twice as many potential Viper owners each year as there are Vipers actually produced and sold. However, Dodge has allowed itself to be cornered by a small but vocal minority of Viper owners into building a car which so alienates a large percentage of potential buyers that Dodge presently can't build much more than 1,500 units because it would not be able to find buyers.

There are too many reasons to list and explore readily but the sum of it is a perceived lack of refinement, features and assembly quality considered necessary by many of the people with the available financial capacity to purchase a Viper. These range from the concrete, such as the available facts on the shocking collision record of the Viper as reported by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, to the sobering list of complaints by Viper owners themselves. Even within this thread there can be found commentary by a Viper owner on something so basic as the difficulty inherent to stopping his car. Such things don't help. I won't even touch on the Valve Issue thread at the top of this page. Can anyone imagine the delight a potential Viper owner must feel reading that thread? Does anyone here remember the venom (no pun intended) directed at the SRT-10 by fellow Viper owners? How would a potential owner feel about the expected marque camraderie after reading some of those threads? The heat issues mentioned by some members on this site easily lend credence to the reporting coming out of major magazines.

While we're on the subject, there is a surprising amount of ire directed at magazine writers and their take on the Viper. From a driving standpoint there are several auto writers writing and testing cars for major auto magazines who have driving and writing credentials that are untouchable by virtually anyone on this site. There should be less 'blame the messenger' and more careful and honest examination of the message which has helped the SRT-10 evolve into the car it is today and which will make the upcoming hardtop variant even more spectacular. Some years ago Motor Trend tested a Viper in a high speed shootout. The GTS Viper blew a coolant house and expired after a spectacular high-speed run. The revamped SRT-10 not only disemboweled its competition during this year's test but did so without a single mechanical twitch in a package far more liveable than that of the GEN I RT/10 it replaced. Auto magazines have an audience of millions. Their readers pay attention, collate their data and share them among themselves and anyone who will listen. Savvy auto makers know this and pay careful attention. Even the Viper's Chief Engineer acknowledged the role of magazines in changing some of the features on the Viper. It is easy for a site member here to dismiss magazines and their influence but then they don't have to answer to the various Boards at Dodge tasked with keeping the Viper in production.

In this day and age the Viper can ill-afford the conceit of all too many of its owners that it be produced in tiny numbers while hewing to an equipment standard that turns off significant numbers of potential owners. The features needed are often vehemently opposed by Viper owners, not for any valid technical reasons, but almost always purely on an emotional basis. Yet their inclusion when offered has proven to be both universally preferred by Viper buyers and to yield performance that simply can't really be beaten by any other production car.

Refinement and performance are not mutually exclusive. It is the uninformed belief that it is that keeps the Viper from being not just a great car but the best of all the supercars.

The Viper is indeed a great car. Too radical? No. Just not as desirable as it could and should be.

Your kidding right? You spent all that time writing this reply and about 90% of it is BS. Have you even ever ridden in a Viper before? The Viper is exclussive period! How many people can afford a 80,000-90,000 sports car? You say they only make 1,500 because that's all they can sell. Are you kidding me? The Viper put Dodge on the map as having the nuts to build the most awesome american sports car of all-time.

 

[Viperzilla]

The Viper is indeed a great car. Too radical? No. Just not as desirable as it could and should be.

Sorry, have to chime in on this one. If you don't want a Viper, you must be too young, a Chevy-only fan, soccer mom, or out of your mind. Even nuns, 3 year olds, elderly (some even own) want the Viper. And if it's not as desireable as it SHOULD be, something is going wrong with America!

 

[Russ Oasis]

BWright,
Clearly you have never owned a Viper. Frankly, I would be surprised if you have ever ridden in one. To take it a step further, I don't think that you own a performace car or ever have. The reason that I say this is that you seem to lack the basic understanding of what makes people passionate about a particular marque, whether Viper, Porsche, or Aston Martin.
The automobile that you suggest in your diatribe is a car that satisfies "everybody." You can't please everybody, and when you try, you actually please NOBODY. Vipers are extreme. You do not get cars that perform like Vipers unless you sacrifice certain aspects. You can't have 1) SPEED 2) DESIGN 3) BUILD QUALITY and 4) LOW PRICE all in one vehicle. You can pick 3 of the 4 but not all four. The extreme nature of the car is what makes it so desirable to those of us who love it. The complaining about the SRT design enters into the picture as Dodge tries to make the car more appealing to EVERYBODY because it loses its uniqeness. Who needs another Corvette (which is what I suspect you like). Are there issues about valves or light switches? Sure.....but we're talking about hand built cars for $83,000 a year. Only 2000 of them a year at that. When you hand build a very small number of cars, there will always be issues. My guess is that Ferrari has as many or more problems with their low volume marque as Viper does. I KNOW that Aston Martin does. Could the Viper be more desirable...YES...MAKE IT MORE RADICAL, NOT LESS RADICAL. Who cares about the heat, valves or lights. BWright, I suggest that you drive a Corvette. It's a great car for the masses and that's what you seem to think the Viper should be.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Who cares about the heat, valves or lights.

I do!

 

[YouWish]

Who cares about the heat, valves or lights.

I do!

Who's side are you on anyway? Anti-Viper boy or our's?

 

[GR8_ASP]

Kind of in the middle. I see positive statements on both sides. I love the rawness of the RT/10, but realize that it is too unrefined and impractical for most enthusiasts. The SRT has a more appropriate level of refinement in the driving. I appreciate the true convertible aspect as well, even though it is a detriment for appearance. I absolutely cannot fathom some of the things that are stated as refinements above.. Heads up display, cruise control, electric seats, etc. do not belong in a sports car. I am on the fence regarding active handling and other high tech performance enhancements. The primary mission for the Viper (in my eyes) is performance. Therefore I do not believe enhancements should be denied just because of the modern or high tech aspect if it improves the performance. Same thing for overhead cam and multi-valve. I want performance and not a low tech image. If a 4 valve cylinder head would help provide an 80 hp/L engine (mid 600 hp) then I would support it. I think you can see that my perspective is mostly performance driven. I also appreciate the appearance and believe that it should not be compromised for mass market appeal. I want a car that is like eye candy. The original RT/10 was like that for me. I just sat in the garage and looked at its gorgeous lines. Some may call it clown-like but to me it has a timeless beauty that few cars have provided. The SRT could continue that except ... The exception is the few design features that make it more trendy and less timeless. I think that we know what they are.

Getting back to the performance I do not mean that it has to feel like a race car. If that is what you want a Mosler may fit the bill. It also does not have to have knife edged driving characteristics. Often the fastest car is the one that is quickest at 90% and does not penalize you when you go slightly over the limit. I think the Gen I on the original tires proved that maximum track capability seriously reduced the capability in the hands of most drivers. Great handling does not mean zero progressivity and snap oversteer just beyond the limit. The SRT handles better than the Gen I yet has much friendlier handling characteristics. They are not mutually exclusive.

Having purchased 2 new Vipers and being an avid afficianado since its inception I believe that I am in the core market. And honestly the Corvette luxuries are not specifically turn-offs except when they detract from performance. If the Corvette outperformed the Viper one would be in my garage. It would replace the SRT though as I have yet to find a replacement for the character of the RT/10. It is kind of Cobra-like in that its appeal is beyond its performance or appearance. The RST out accelerates it, out corners it and out brakes it (by a mile). However, strangely enough, the RT/10 is substantially more fun to drive. So, in addition to the performance and appearance requirements, those things that create the character and fun to drive aspect must be included. Those things are not features but are more like the persona.

Sorry to run at the mouth but you asked for it.

BTW I do not believe product deficiencies such as the SRT heat, valves and lights mentioned above are part of the character. I believe they detract from the character. No one wants an old Jag because of the Lucas electtonics. They want it despite the Lucas deficiencies.

 

[Russ Oasis]

However, strangely enough, the RT/10 is substantially more fun to drive.

Thank you Ron. You just made my case. Refinement doesn't equal the raw appeal of a car. The Cobra in it's day was not as refined as a Ferrari, Aston martin, Alfa Romeo, or XK-E, yet it is the car that we all admire most. Nobody denys improvements for the purposes of performance, however, BWright was complaining about heat in the sills and valve issues. He doesn't get it. For me, I'd trade "refinement" any day of the week for performance.

 

[YouWish]

Viper SRT:Nice write-up. Why not have a SRT or RT/10 and a GTS? Just curious.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Mostly timing and money. But I am a fair weather user. I think if a T top or equivalent style was available I would go that way. But on a great summer day I just cannot fathom being inside.

 

[Bwright]

Not gonna back and forth with you.

As you wish. I will say this in closing though, I just don't get why you continue to refer to heads up displays, cruise control and a comfy ride when I said and repeated that I neither mentioned nor thought of any of these items as "refinement." Add gimmicks and lower the price? Where are you getting this stuff?! Again, I neither said nor suggested either. In fact, on this board in previous posts I have clearly stated that in my opinion the Viper is underpriced for what it delivers. It is not possible to add refinements and lower the price. Look at the price jump between the GEN II and GEN III Vipers for reference.

I am well aware of how limited production helps a car's cachet and no 90,000 Lamborghini's is obviously not a good thing for the marque. Guess what though. Lamborghini has plans to increase availability of their cars by 1,200%. Don't believe me? They made about 100 Murcielagos last year but the new Gallardo is projected to sell 1,200 units per year at a price that, relative to the Murcielago, can be considered cut rate. Despite this, Lamborghinis will remain vanishingly rare. Their effect on the public will also remain undiminished. Once again two things (increased production and exclusivity) are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

The SRT is a huge leap in refinement over the early RT-10 Vipers with its glass windows and real softtop, but it drives just like the original, and that's what I was looking for.

Precisely the point of my first post. Refinement and performance are not mutually exclusive. I find it odd that you decry refinement by citing things I never mentioned while acknowledging "refinement" in your SRT-10 and noting that it drives just like the original and is what you were looking for.

 

[Bwright]

Have you even ever ridden in a Viper before?

I have driven both the GTS and SRT. What's your point?

The Viper is exclussive period!

And? Where did I say it wasn't?

How many people can afford a 80,000-90,000 sports car?

You can't be serious. Let me see if I understand this. In the wealthiest country on earth, one in which available IRS data indicates that the top 1% of tax filers in a nation of 300 million people make $373K - $110mm a year you think $80K is some sort of a problem. Uh-huh. Let me add a little perspective to your life. Last year Porsche sold 12,167 911s in the US and Canada at real prices starting in the mid $70Ks to almost $200K Their Carrera GT has not yet hit the road but is sold out (1,500 units) at a price of approximately $400K. Ferrari sells approximately 4,000 cars a year at prices that start at approximately $160K for an entry level model. Ferrari offered a car to the public called the Enzo. It had a base sticker price of $660,000 and was supposed to build 349 units. Ferrari had to build 399 because they were deluged with angry calls from prospective buyers who feared they would not get one. Each Enzo was paid for before a single car was built. The total dollar amount paid for that single model's production run would exceed the list price of every SRT Viper sold for almost three years. The 552 hp Bentley Continental GT has a sticker price of $149,000 and Bentley has taken deposits on 3,200 of them. The Bugatti EB 16-4 Veyron has a $1mm price tag and the 50 car production run is sold out. The list of cars costing $100K and more extends in every direction and almost all are sold out for their first year. From the upcoming Ford GT to the new Rolls Royce and Mercedes Maybach. Honestly, did you just get here? With the surfeit of overpaid athletes, entertainers, Wall Street sharks and the like in this country you think there is a shortage of people who can buy an $80K car?! Wake up Forrest. Do you have any idea what the buying power of car buyers in Europe and Japan is like?

You say they only make 1,500 because that's all they can sell. Are you kidding me?

No I am not kidding you. I am also not asking you a question. The Viper Registry shows that in 1994 Dodge made 3,084 Vipers. Yet the production for this past model year was estimated at 1,500 units. Proven capacity for 3,000 yet only 1,500 were made. You think they do that on purpose? Reality check. A sizable percentage of Viper owners and potential owners (myself included) want the Coupe version of the SRT-10. Small problem. As Team ORECA's director Pierre Dieudonne put it, "There is a plan to have a coupe, but as far as we understand plans are on hold at the moment because of the [financial situation] at Chrysler." His sentiments were echoed by then Viper Chief Engineer Roy Sjoberg who said, "There is certainly a desire. But whether there is the budget to do it, whether there is sufficient engineering impetus to do it and management impetus, at this time there would not be."

History you see is written by the victors. Over at Daimler they are not hurting for money. The AMG division of Mercedes-Benz can devote considerable financial and personal resources to produce a multitude of different sporty/performance cars for its demanding clientele. The SL cars alone come in at least four variants (SL 500, 55, 600 & 65). Same goes for the CL and CLK class cars. They have a $350K SLR on deck. Same story. $350K price tag, first year model run sold out. But Dodge cannot get the funding to produce a coupe. The Viper does not sell in enough numbers for Dodge to chart their own course with the car so they and eager potential owners are forced to wait. The Viper team should be dominating Le Mans year in and year out. However, they are forced to resort to NASCAR (NASCAR!) because, as John Fernandez pointed out, "as much as I love road racing, NASCAR is where its at." Do you have any idea what it costs Mercedes to field a Formula 1 team? It is estimated that top teams like Ferrari spend close to $440mm per season on their teams. Mercedes-Benz can afford to be in that company but Dodge has to resort to NASCAR because they can't afford to take a factory Viper road racing? Unacceptable.

 

[Bwright]

Even nuns, 3 year olds, elderly (some even own) want the Viper. And if it's not as desireable as it SHOULD be, something is going wrong with America!

Viperzilla, one of my points was not that those people don't find a Viper desirable. It's great that nuns and 3-year-olds find the car desirable. Here's the rub. When it comes to actually putting down money for the car why do so many who can afford it look at the Viper and walk away to buy something else? At its price point the Viper is a raging bargain. It's performance credentials are beyond reproach yet it cannot muster up enough sales to break even let alone eke out a profit. I simply think a candid evaluation of why these people bypass the car is warranted.

 

[Bwright]

Clearly you have never owned a Viper. Frankly, I would be surprised if you have ever ridden in one. To take it a step further, I don't think that you own a performace car or ever have.

Two strikes. No I do not own a Viper. However, I have driven both the GTS and the SRT-10. I own a '99 Vette.

You can't have 1) SPEED 2) DESIGN 3) BUILD QUALITY and 4) LOW PRICE all in one vehicle. You can pick 3 of the 4 but not all four.

Demonstrably incorrect. There is such a car. It's called the Viper SRT-10.

Speed - It's performance includes a devastating romp through some of the world's best cars in a recent Motor Trend comparison test. It set production car records in some of them and simply ran wild through the field. As Motor Trend so aptly put it, "Omnipotent is too tame a word."

Design - The car retains an arresting quality built on the Viper name, its look and intelligent design. This is evidenced in revolutionary tires which somehow provide run-flat capability with tremendous grip. Improved aerodynamics through staggered tires sizes. Better water sealing and systems integration. A braking system with capabilities previously unseen in the production car field. Lateral grip that continues to set prodcution car records.

Build quality - the quality of the SRT is significantly improved and as Motor Trend noted in the aforementioned test is such that after hammering it through numerous performance test for a considerable length of time, nothing on the car so much as hiccuped.

Low price - Show me one car at the SRT-10's price range that is fit to walk in its shadow. There isn't one. The SRT-10's torque rating exceeds that of Ferrari's vaunted Enzo. It completed MT's track test almost a full second ahead of the $300K Murcielago and finished a 0-100-0 test almost 1/2 a second ahead of said car. To get a 500hp V10 anywhere else you would have to spend $165K for a Gallardo. Ten to one the Viper would then tear it apart.

He doesn't get it. For me, I'd trade "refinement" any day of the week for performance.

Actually I do get it. So too apparently does Bob Lutz. In his excellent book on the Viper, which should be required reading for everyone on this site, Daniel Carney has an interesting quote from Lutz in regards to refinement of the Viper. "There is no question about it, the car needed refinement. It needed better body panel fit, it needed a nicer instrument panel. There's no sense asking a customer to give up slickness and refinement just because he has terrific performance. For roughly $70,000 he should get it all." I couldn't agree more. What do you think Russ? Lutz too doesn't get it? After all, what's a nicer instrument panel going to do for performance? Why on earth would he even care. Because he gets it and you don't. It's nice to know that you would trade refinement for performance. Lutz and I, however, don't see why anyone should have to. A talented engineering team should be able to accomplish both without anyone having to choose one over the other. Listening to people like you and your "can't do, can't be done, must choose, 3 out of 4 only way possible" attitude would be interesting were it not so remarkably nearsighted.

Vipers will continue to deliver maximum performance with increasing refinement. That is what the market demands. Engineers who cannot find a way to deliver this need to look elsewhere for employment. I discovered something very interesting in Carney's book. Seems Dodge came up with a Viper called the ACR to apeal to more hardore racers. They took the A/C out to save weight. As Carney observed, virtually every ACR Viper was ordered with the A/C. See Russ, there's only so much lack of refinement an actual owner will tolerate before they start demanding creature comforts back.

You suggest I buy a Vette because I will find it more refined and desirable. Now it's my turn to wonder if you have ever driven one. Let me tell you how my test drive of the SRT-10 went. The first thing I noticed when I went to get in is that the window apparently moves up and down to better seal as you open and close the door. This refinement is not offered on my Vette and to the best of knowledge does not appear on even current Vettes. I have driven my Vette at 150 mph. Believe me you notice an unsealed window then. Next thing I noticed were the pedals. The pedals are adjustable. BY POWER EVEN! I was dumbfounded. I had only seen that trick in a Lincoln Navigator. Finally, I could seriously consider letting my wife drive more. Because my Vette does not have that refinement I limit my wife's driving of the car because she has to sit too close to the wheel to reach the pedals. It gets better, there was a quick way to turn off the passenger side airbag. I cannot carry my two-month old daughter in my Vette because I cannot disable the passenger side airbag. Already, refinements to the SRT-10 made me comfortable having my family in it.

On the drive the first thing I noticed was the tires. They are way better than the stiff, heavy GEN I Goodyear run-flats on my 99 Vette. And they generate better grip! I was assured that the ABS system featured electronic proportioning. My Vette does not have that. But the best was yet to come. I pulled over, got out and had the passenger turn on the headlights. I was left slack-jawed. I have and have had three cars with HID lights. My 2000 S500 AMG, my 2002 745Li and the Volvo XC/90 I just bought my wife. I have never seen lights like those on the SRT-10. One could direct passing air traffic with them. I barely heard the running commentary that the SRT-10 used electronic noise cancellation technology in its exhaust system. Electronic noise cancellation? Mitsubishi's old 3000GT used to use that. BMW employs a form of noise manipulation on their Z4. The Vette does not have this. You recommend that I go buy a Vette because it's a car for the masses? Hey Russ, I personally evaluated the Viper vs. the Vette for refinement. The SRT-10 won going away. Guess what? It did that while retaining every ounce of the devastating performance that Viper's are known for. You see, some car manufacturers can build cars that can walk and chew gum at the same time.

So why did I not buy it? I don't like convertibles. I want a coupe. A striped graphite coupe. The day Dodge offers one I'm in. Buying an SRT-10 now means settling for what I can get because Dodge does not yet offer what I want. Their excuse is something about not having enough money or some such. Wonder why.

One more thing. We really need to make English the first language of this country. I never complained about heat in the sills or valve issues. Having never experienced them I could not have. I said "The heat issues mentioned by some members on this site easily lend credence to the reporting coming out of major magazines." In other words if Viper owners keep complaining about heat issues it makes it look like the magazines were right. The constant complaining about valve issues will not encourage people to buy. Stop complaining. I'm sure the problem is not that bad. I also pointed out that Viper owners need to be careful about their complaining. You could create the illusion of a problem where there is not one. I later reiterated that I was making an observation of perceptions. I don't know how much clearer I can be. My first posts on this site were in defense of the SRT when savaging it was a blood sport. I don't understand why people are so quick to assume I don't like the car (anti-Viper boy?!) when I have spent so much time in the past defending it.

 

[Viperfreak2]

I give. There's no way you can out-type this guy! I spend a few hours a day at my computer at work. Doing work. I'll be damned if I spent THAT much time typing responses! OK, so in ONE CLEAR (SHORT) statement, what would you add to, change, delete, or redesign on the SRT-10 to make it what you said in your opener? I won't even put words in your mouth this time.

 

[YouWish]

Bwright:Your a Vette ownere enough said. That is why you have all this "hidden" animosity towards the Viper. Come on the GTS/RT/10 doesn't appeal to you? Give me a break!!! You say your waiting for a SRT-10 Coupe with stripes which will happen but,your content now to dog everything else about the Viper then when the new coupe comes out you will get on your soap box again. I'm sorry but your a Troll in sheeps clothing claiming to be a fan of the Viper yet your words say otherwise. Oh yeah I mis-spoke less than 1% of U.S.citizens can afford a Viper 253 million strong and going up everyday. Oh yeah I forgot Vipers are a dime a dozen!!!

 

[Viperzilla]

When it comes to actually putting down money for the car why do so many who can afford it look at the Viper and walk away to buy something else? At its price point the Viper is a raging bargain. It's performance credentials are beyond reproach yet it cannot muster up enough sales to break even let alone eke out a profit. I simply think a candid evaluation of why these people bypass the car is warranted.

Here's your "evaluation": Ever consider that the reason is that these people aren't looking for power or a two-seater, but luxury like a Bentley, Mayback, or Aston. There's a reason some will bypass a Viper for a higher priced luxury car. More luxury. My thinking on this is that most of the "rich" aren't into performance, but sitting well, maybe some for the "flash" of the highest price car they can get.

 

[fluffy]

I don't want to be rude, but what posts are you reading, YouWish? I think you are blinded by some kind of need to see everyone that doesn't own a Viper as a viper hater, as if the mere fact of non-ownership is a rejection of your beloved car. Bwright clearly stated his position which is completely contrary to the inferences you seem to be drawing from it. You seem to have (purposefully?) ignored what he has actually written in an effort to bash him for some reason. Read and respond intelligently to his posts and the points raised therein, or shut the hell up if for no other reason then to keep yourself from looking like an idiot.

 

[YouWish]

I don't want to be rude, but what posts are you reading, YouWish? I think you are blinded by some kind of need to see everyone that doesn't own a Viper as a viper hater, as if the mere fact of non-ownership is a rejection of your beloved car. Bwright clearly stated his position which is completely contrary to the inferences you seem to be drawing from it. You seem to have (purposefully?) ignored what he has actually written in an effort to bash him for some reason. Read and respond intelligently to his posts and the points raised therein, or shut the hell up if for no other reason then to keep yourself from looking like an idiot.

FluffyPlease tell me your a woman with that id)Again another non-Viper owner defending our little Troll we have here. If you had a Viper you would also take offense to his posts.

 

[Viperfreak2]

WOW, fluffy! So you don't respect others opinions? There's free speech, so your "shut the hell up you idiot" ain't too nice. We're not in here to be bashed by non-Viper owners. This is our forum, and you're welcome to express your opinions, but what does your post have to do with the topic? OR constructive purpose? Good thing you started out by saying "I DON'T WANT TO BE RUDE"!

 

[Y2K5SRT]

It's performance credentials are beyond reproach yet it cannot muster up enough sales to break even let alone eke out a profit. I simply think a candid evaluation of why these people bypass the car is warranted.

Bwright - Excellent commentary and very valid points throughout. I will add a short (relatively) reply to the above question as I think it gets to the meat of your original post. Oh, and since I will be telling you why people are probably not lining up for the Viper (the "negatives"), I will probably piss off a few Viper owners. Rest assured that these are opinions, not endorsements:

1. It's a Dodge. By car standards, the Viper is relatively young. For many growing up in the '70's and '80's, Chrysler was largely a joke. How many models have carried over besides the Ram? ZERO. Porsche has carried on practically the same design (and nameplate) since the '50's. Even though they were embarrassing on power (and looks for the Ford), both the Mustang and Corvette carry over to this day. And neither GM or Ford had a well-publicized government bailout in order to stay alive. Chrysler's biggest, and really only non-government (K-Car), success story is in their minivans. And the people buying entry-level minivans are not shopping for $80,000 sports cars. I guarantee I am not the only Viper owner that has heard, "Too bad its a Dodge."

2. Mass media. No matter which magazine you look at, the Viper never quite makes it to the top. Your Motor Trend article is certainly one of my favorites, as it shows the performance of the Viper in its true colors. Yet they still brought in a non-production, year old (the only 2002 in the test), $210,000 prototype KIT CAR on race slicks (!!) and then talk about its "Viper-humbling total performance". Motor Trend's bottom line? "Much better than the previous Viper, but still could be even more refined." Likewise, Road & Track recently did a 0-100-0 test and the Viper beat the Murcielago, Saleen S7, and a host of other cars. HOWEVER, they placed it head-to-head with a Porsche AWD Turbo which they were launching at 5,000 RPM. Yep, Porsche wins that and the "King of the 0-100-0 mph" by 0.4 seconds and half of that was just in the shifting transition. The only mention of "Viper" in the summary is the fact that the Mercedes E55 AMG has the same numbers as the 1996 Viper GTS: 15.0 seconds. Edmunds.com says nice things about the car but in the end gives it one of its lowest ratings based on the "cons" of "No traction control or side airbags, extremely limited production." Throw in Car & Driver with their infamous "bacon and eggs" photo shoot (what else do you remember from that article?) and the media just doesn't embrace the car and in my opinion, never will.

3. Awareness. For 2003, it was widely published that the entire run of 1500 cars was sold out a year in advance. This was certainly true, as the certificates were snapped up by existing owners and the cars never truly made available to the public. Besides that, you rarely see the Viper (old or new) in any type of advertising. Much like the Lamborghini. In 2002, Lamborghini had a "banner year", selling all of 424 Murcielagos worldwide. When your average Joe sees a Viper on the street (rarely), they think of it as an exotic in price as well. Many that are finally able to afford the Corvette don't even consider the Viper, as the impression is that is it astronomically priced. And compared to the other American sports cars, it is. Thus my next point.

4. Bang for the buck. The Viper is caught kind of in the middle of things. You have incredible performance on a straight line, road course, and just about anything else. But as we often point out, you can build a $7,000 Mustang that will destroy it on the quarter mile. Go out and buy a spec racer if you want to go tear up a road course, especially since the Viper is currently only offered as a convertible. And those exotic looks? If you are buying the car for looks (as many do) and have the money for such a frivolous expense, why not buy a Ferrari (new or used), Lambo or something else? No, many that are shopping for a new sports car want performance yet want to be coddled at the same time. The Viper SRT-10, bless its mechanical soul, compromised a little but not enough. Not only do the magazines still curse it as a daily driver, but it still has a very deserved reputation for being a car that is difficult to drive under full power. Both the Vette and the Porsche are refined to the point where even a simple magazine writer can get the most out of them. The Viper is not. So the question becomes do you want an $84,000 car that is harder to drive and fast as hell or do you want a $52,000 car that is a piece of cake and only a few ticks slower? I ********** a couple folks before and I will do it again: For the casual enthusiast the Z06 is a great deal for the money.

5. Style. I will be short on this one, honest. The new convertible is great, but it effectively alienated 65% of the current Viper owners that bought coupes. Strange, because the GTS outsold the RT/10 every year it was made. Why didn't they build a coupe? Perhaps they thought it would be more appealing to the Corvette crowd that wanted a daily driver and not a true track car. Regardless, the end result is that many current Viper owners are less than thrilled. Which brings me, finally, to my last point.

6. Viper internet forums, including this one. When you log into the SRT forum here, what is the VERY first thing you see? "Valve Issue..." It was a very real problem and worthy of lengthy discussion. Yet it was beat to death so hard that many are now under the impression that every SRT is a lemon - despite the fact it only affected 13% of production. Now it is natural to talk about problems that have come up as opposed to the good things, especially in the first year of production. It is similar to the old adage of, "while a person might not tell anybody about a good experience, they will tell ten people about a bad one." So many that come to find out about the SRT come here and read about all these problems. The second factor is the HORRIFIC attitude many current Viper owners express publicly towards the new car - and as a result, the owners of the SRT. It is like walking into a room for the first time and watching somebody gun down all the people wearing new shirts. Gee, maybe I won't buy that new shirt after all... Even the press has picked up on that attitude. It would be ironic if it contributed to bad sales and thus cost any chance of a coupe down the road. Why would a company sink millions into a very limited production car when the current one is being so poorly received and is largely the same design? Answer? They won't.

Again, these are just my very humble, and as it turns out, LONG opinions.

Chris

 

[Viperzilla]

Very good, Chris. Great examples and elaborations without killing it with lengthy explanations.

 

[fluffy]

Again another non-Viper owner defending our little Troll we have here. If you had a Viper you would also take offense to his posts.

My comments were a little over the top, but I fail to see how he is a troll? The topic at hand is the radical nature of the Viper, which he commented on. A troll comments specifically to raise the ire of others (and on this level he seems to have succeeded, hopefully inadvertently) but his points seem to me to be valid and were presented logically. What does viper ownership have to do with whether his argument was persuasive or not? Granted the "idiot" remark was probably uncalled for, but you seemed to be bashing him for no reason other than the fact that he is criticizing your car of choice (and mine, believe it or not). You stated that 90% of what he wrote was BS, but then failed to back up your assertion with any argument of your own other than to call him a vette loving troll. His contribution to the discussion was relevant and thoughtful, but was attacked apparently for no other reason than that it was a less than fawning assessment of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Viper and its impression on others. I know you realize the weaknesses inherent in an ad hominem attack (ignore the irony for a moment) and the implications in taking such an approach so I won't expound on them.

My user name is fluffy because that's what it's always been. I suppose I should have chosen "v10p0wAR4evAR" or "viperWorshipper" and then perhaps I would fit in a little better.

 

[YouWish]

Fluffy: I shouldn't have made fun of your user-id. Sorry. I just find it hard to read material from a person that has never owned a Viper and they act like they are an authority on the subject speaking of Bwright of course.

 

[Viper 24]

I agree with Chris's observations, Dodge (Chrysler) has a stigma with the general public that's been challenging to overcome. There are legacy sport car names that have been in production for many generations, newcomers like the viper have to fight the heritage and nostalgia of notable muscle cars like the vette and mustang. In my opinion the viper is beginning to build a viable reputation, a true muscle car contender irrelevent of production issues and media. There have been many muscle cars in the past that have tried to do what the viper is doing - pontiac attempted with the "Goat" and "Judge" but failed; creating a design that drives adoption and proves to be sticky amongst owners is far more challenging then anyone on this post thinks. I believe the viper will endure media attacks, even those posted on this forum. It has a following which is growing, that is all Dodge needs to keep this snake alive.

JM

 

[Bwright]

There's no way you can out-type this guy! I spend a few hours a day at my computer at work. Doing work. I'll be damned if I spent THAT much time typing responses!

Dude, relax. This isn't a contest. You should spend less type worrying about the volume of my writing and more time on its content. I make the time because I consider the subject important. If you don't then respond, or don't accordingly.

In that vein, the thoughts will be clear and I will try to keep them shorter going forward. Onward:

Design refinements
1. A coupe. Not much more need be said. That seems to be what many who have not bought an SRT-10 say they want.

2. Stripes. It is a part of every Viper model and the SRT-10 is due for some factory striping. I’ve seen some striping owners have had done. Nothing I’ve seen looks as good as the wide stripes on the GTS/R concept that recently made the rounds on the auto-show circuit.

3. Expand the color palette. In addition to the current four colors add yellow, graphite and the classic Viper blue.

Safety
4. Side air bags. According to the NHTSA side impacts account for some 10,000 deaths every year. If these units help save even one Viper driver they will be worth it.

5. Enhanced rollover protection for the SRT-10. It could be as simple as hardening the “roll bars” and then designing them to extend a few inches upward should a driver unfortunately roll the car.

Weight savings/performance
6. Optional carbon-ceramic brakes. These units would cut the weight of the existing brakes in half. The material is also durable enough to last for the life of the car.

7. 42V electrical system. Used to its fullest it could result in a 5-12% improvement in fuel economy (say goodbye to the Viper's gas guzzler tax) while lowering exhaust emissions in the range of 10-15%.

8. My favorite. An active camber system. You talk about radical technology? This is it. Envision if you will a system capable of instantly varying the camber of the wheels through a range of about 20 degrees. The benefits? Demonstrated cornering ability of 1.28G, almost 30% better than the record-breaking SRT-10. Because an active camber system can splay the wheels under hard braking it can shave a staggering 16 ft. off braking distances from 60 mph. On a track these two abilities would enable a Viper to not only confidently carry significantly more speed into a corner but exit same at speeds not evenly remotely possible by a comparable car not using this technology. It gets better. The technology is dependent on the use of what is basically an “active tire.” The tire in effect is different from its outer edge to its inner edge. Since the active camber system would roll the car’s tires on to their inner edge for cornering, that section could practically be a slick while on their outer edges the tires compound could be such that a better ride quality can be achieved on real world bad roads. Even better. Guess who developed this technology? Mercedes-Benz on their F400 Carving demonstrator.

9. Hydroforming. This enables the Viper’s underlying structure to gain a significant amount of stiffness with a reduction in mass and number of welded parts. The former enables greater freedom for suspension tuning while the latter goes a long way toward reducing squeaks and rattles over the long term.

Incidentally, I’ve noted your apparent obsession with head up displays. Though I have never suggested one for the Viper you have twice cited it as something that should not be in a Viper because it would make it less of a Viper. A HUD’s benefits in a demanding high-speed environment is such that they are required equipment for the most sophisticated fighter aircraft the world over. The technology has even now extended to Juan Montoya’s BMW/Williams F1 car. I am not necessarily advocating a HUDs use in a Viper but, just out of idle curiosity, how is the Viper more "real" if you will than a $100mm F22 Raptor or the $1mm BMW/Williams F1 car such that they find a benefit to the technology in their high speed environments but you do not see same for the Viper? Is there a specific technical reason for your position or is it just another irrational, emotional reaction which cannot be factually justified?

 

[Bwright]

Fluffy,

Thanks.

 

[Bwright]

Chris,

I agree with everything you said. Very well put. One caveat:

Why didn't they build a coupe? Perhaps they thought it would be more appealing to the Corvette crowd that wanted a daily driver and not a true track car.

According to Dan Carney's book on the Viper the reason cited by the Viper development team was that they lacked the funds to develop a coupe. I am not 100% certain I believe them. They could simply be planning its later release as a simple marketing tactic to generate continual interest in the car.

I must say that point 6 was especially spot on. I still remember casually mentioning on what must have been my second or third post on the GEN II section that I thought the SRT-10 was a great car and a real step forward for the Viper. The result was surreal. In short order I found myself under heavy fire defending a Viper to Viper owners who had apparently determined that the SRT-10 was the antichrist. The unfortunate part of it was that if you follow the commentary on other marque forums they justify their put downs of the SRT-10 by citing commentary on this forum.