Belanger Leak/Gaskets

[ViperTony]

Folks,

I've been wrestling with a small but annoying exhaust leak with my Belanger headers. It seems that no matter how even I torque down the flanges, I keep developing the same leaks in the same areas. I've spent a great deal of time searching old posts on the matter and found people with similiar issues. The solutions ranged from having the flanges re-machined flat ( warped ), installing compressed gaskets, o-rings, copper gaskets, etc. I don't believe my issue has to do with warped flanges, I checked. They've been evenly tightened too many times to count. I decided to take some measurements and have custom copper gaskets made.

I believe that the ID of the these pipes don't line up with the ID of the header pipes. While the flanges line up well, I believe there's an off-set gap of 1/16" - 1/8" that's allowing exhaust to escape through these flanges. I think the trick is finding a gasket with an o-ring to properly seal that 1/4" groove on the ID of the pipe. I'm having custom copper flanges made with an O-ring insert to try and adress this. If anyone is interested in a set of these gaskets, let me know. I'm also having them made for the 3" collector area (pickle) as well. If anyone knows where I can find proper gaskets already made for this application please me know where I can find them. I've looked everywhere but due to the unique measurements on these flanges, standard gaskets from Mr. Gasket and SCE don't fit. None seem to have the o-ring option either.

On a side-note, that orange film inside the pipe came from some octane booster I recently tried. It coated the inside of my exhaust with an orange haze.

- Tony

 

[Jim Wilson]

These worked fine for me.......

JEGS Copper Collector Gaskets - JEGS

For the smaller flanges that you are having trouble with, I just used Permatex Ultra Copper silicone.

 

[ViperTony]

Thanks Jim. I should've mentioned I've been using the copper silicone. It blows out at the Y. Question about the 3" copper gaskets from Jegs: Does the embossed seal line up with the ID pipe and not on the flange? I ask this because I tried a similiar gasket from SCE and the embossed seal sat on the flange surface. It was off about 1/4" and I couldn't get the flanges to seat flush:

The ID of this 3" collector actually measures 2 13/16". So most 3" gaskets (with the embossed seal) don't line up. I found that the embossed seam lines up with the outter ring and sits on the flat part of the flange. I will look into the Jegs gasket though.

 

[Jim Wilson]

Hmmmmm.....you got me there Tony. It's been a couple years since the install and my brain can't remember back that far. But being as anal as I am, if things didn't line up properly, I wouldn't have used them.

All I can say is that there aren't any leaks. Maybe someone else will chime in.

 

[Dan Cragin]

On some of the early Bellanger headers we had problems with leaks from the lower collectors in the two bolt and three bolt flanges. Bellanger does not want you to use gaskets on the two bolt flanges. You can machine them flat or use a copper seal sealant on these. The three bolt flanges can use a gasket and usually seal up well. Using a ARP bolt package will be less likely loosen up over time.

Hope this helps.

Dan Cragin
DC Performance Inc.
310-841-6996

 

[ViperTony]

Thanks Dan. I've done the copper silicone, ARP grade 8 bolts, etc. but didn't remachine the surface as its not warped. I may just do that and pack up everything and ship it back to Belanger if the gaskets don't work. I really don't feel like dismantling the headers at this point but if all else fails I will. Thanks for the info.

 

[ViperTony]

Update: Lessons Learned. Since my last post I decided to call Lou Belanger about my leak and shipped my headers back to him for diagnosis. Once Lou had an opportunity to put my headers on his jig and perform some diagnosis he found the problem. Before I go any further, let me say that Lou is one of the most knowledgeable and passionate people I've ever met. That being said...after I got my *** kicked on the phone and downloaded newfound knowledge of steel and welding techniques from Lou I realized I had distorted the collectors.

I had secondary O2 bungs welded into the Y-collector after I purchased the headers. Unbeknownst to me, when the bungs were welded the intense heat caused the 2" collector flanges to distort. Enough so that they were off about 1/4" when Lou installed them on his jig.

If you ask when you order your headers from Belanger, he will weld in secondary O2 bungs up on top of the collector for you. He'll do this during the assembly process and will correct any distortion that may occur before the flanges are machined perfectly flat and before they go out for jet-hot coating.

Lou spent a good part of his day fixing my headers and getting them back to trueness. I had them re-jet hot coated and they're back home today. They look brand new. In fact, they look so good that I want to keep them on my mantle over the fireplace but the wife said 'No'. They are beautiful though:

There's a reason I had the headers jet-hot coated again. The headers only have about 3K miles on them. However, I installed the factory OEM heat shields over my Belangers. Unfortunately, I didn't leave enough space between the primary tubes and heat shields which caused the shields to rub against the tubes. This resulted in a good portion of the jet-hot coating to flake off the tubes, down to the raw steel on some of the tubes.

If you plan on installing the OEM heat shields over these headers make certain you leave at least a fingers-width of space between the shields and headers. Cover the headers with rags and take the time to form/mold the shields around the headers BEFORE you bolt the headers to the engine. This will reduce, if not eliminate, the amount of knicks, scratches and gouges that may occur on the tubes which will cause the jet-hot coating flake off prematurely.

I'm off to install these beauties back on the Viper following Lou's installation instructions. NO, I will NOT be using any gaskets just hi-temp copper silicone. I want to thank Lou for all of the time he spent with me on the phone. I'd say at least 3-4 hours in phone conversations and another 4 hours of his time fixing these beauties. Hopefully I've shared some lessons learned and you won't make some of the mistakes I made here.

The packaging is as robust as the headers:

 

[Red Snake]

Very nice. Sounds like you got it squared away now.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Thanks for the update Tony. My degree is in Materials Engr., and I learned just enough back in school to know that you have to be very careful with welding due to the heat treatment you are imparting upon the metal. And that heat treatment varies as you move away from the weld. But I never would have guessed that you would see distortion that far away in the flanges.

LOL at Lou's box. I was trying to break it down to throw it away last week. Friggin million staples. I'm sure one fell onto the garage floor and is now waiting to puncture my new tires.

 

[ViperTony]

Thanks for the update Tony. My degree is in Materials Engr., and I learned just enough back in school to know that you have to be very careful with welding due to the heat treatment you are imparting upon the metal. And that heat treatment varies as you move away from the weld. But I never would have guessed that you would see distortion that far away in the flanges.

LOL at Lou's box. I was trying to break it down to throw it away last week. Friggin million staples. I'm sure one fell onto the garage floor and is now waiting to puncture my new tires.

LOL. It took me 10 minutes to remove those staples with a pair of pliars. Lou talked to me about how he can hit certain parts of the pipes with a torch and force a bend at the opposite end. In fact, I learned more about hot spots then I care to know. His pics showed a 1/4" difference at the y-collector and that does explain why I had a difficult time lining up the pipes. Between that and me over-torquing the bolts to get things to line up I did a number on that Y-pipe joint. All I can say now is that they look perfect. In fact, I'd say they look better than when they were new.

I did something else too...as I removed and reinstalled the collector a few times I never bothered to loosen the manifold flange bolts. That procedure whereby you install the headers and finger tighten the manifold bolts and then torque down the collector. I guess I put too much stress on that y-collector join that contributed to the issue.

So in summary: Not Following Directions + Not Following Directions = Problem

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

I hate to say it, but I'm glad you did your install before me. I'm sure you saved me at least one problem.

 

[ViperTony]

Yeah...just follow the directions and you'll be fine.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Looking for some help. Doing my install, and have a few new questions.

• The headers come with the top and bottom halves assembled. I believe I should remove the bottom, and then reinstall after mounting the tops to the engine. What torque should I use to reattach the top to the bottom? There does not appear to be any washers used.
• I think I should use a flat washer and a lock washer with the 20 bolts for the top half installation to the engine. Is this correct? What is the torque for the final tightening?
• There are 6 bolts and nuts that appear to be to attach the bottom half of the header to the turn out section. I do not have any flat washers or lock washers for these. Should I? What torque should be used?
• My hardware bag also has 8 larger bolts with nuts and lock washers. They appear to be spares for the top to bottom. Is that correct?

 

[dave6666]

Use these generic torque values.

You must be registered for see images

And yes, they go together in pieces. Hand tight at the heads and tighten the collector fully. Then torque to the heads. 200 in lbs, 50 for the heat shields.

I suppose washers are always optional if you wish to add them. I have not opened my bag yet to inventory the hardware, but I will likely use flat washers to keep the wrench marks to a dull roar.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Thanks Dave. That was my backup plan. Have you tried to separate the two assembled halves yet? Tight as heck, and takes two wrenches. Oh yeah, and don't ding up the finish.

 

[ViperTony]

The 8 large bolts that seem like extras actually replace the 8 large bolts currently holding the Y-collector (2 bolt flanges) to the header assemblies. The installed bolts are temporary for the jet-hot coating process according to Lou.

I did use both flat and lock washers for the header-manifold bolts. I think you'll be fine without washers but I think the washers help spread the torque more evenly across the surface of the flanges. It's just my preference. These flanges are so smooth and flat that additional washers are probably overkill anyway. The service manual for my '01 says to torque the header-manifold bolts to 200in pounds or approximately 16ft pounds.

On the 2-bolt flanges I used flat washers and flange nuts. Again, I have a gazillion grade 8 bolts, nuts, etc and decided to throw them on. On my last install I didn't use any washers in these locations and they held up just fine.

On the 3 bolt flanges, you don't need to use washers. I decided to use flat washers and flange nuts there. Again, just my preference...I had them and used them.

Just take your time and torque everything evenly. I don't remember the exact torque I used on the 2 bolt and 3 bolt flanges...I've done this install so many times I pretty much used the 'force' the last time around. I found that the foam packing material was great for protecting the headers from scratches/nicks during installation.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

The 8 large bolts that seem like extras actually replace the 8 large bolts currently holding the Y-collector (2 bolt flanges) to the header assemblies. The installed bolts are temporary for the jet-hot coating process according to Lou.

I did use both flat and lock washers for the header-manifold bolts. I think you'll be fine without washers but I think the washers help spread the torque more evenly across the surface of the flanges. It's just my preference. These flanges are so smooth and flat that additional washers are probably overkill anyway. The service manual for my '01 says to torque the header-manifold bolts to 200in pounds or approximately 16ft pounds.

On the 2-bolt flanges I used flat washers and flange nuts. Again, I have a gazillion grade 8 bolts, nuts, etc and decided to throw them on. On my last install I didn't use any washers in these locations and they held up just fine.

On the 3 bolt flanges, you don't need to use washers. I decided to use flat washers and flange nuts there. Again, just my preference...I had them and used them.

Just take your time and torque everything evenly. I don't remember the exact torque used on the 2 bolt and 3 bolt flanges...I've done this install so many times I pretty much used the 'force' the last time around. I found that the foam packing material was great for protecting the headers from scratches/nicks during installation.

Excellent! Thanks Tony. I thought that maybe the "originals" were only for the Jet-Hot coating. There were no washers etc.

OK, last question. What is the best way to make sure the entire exhaust system fits together when you are welding the turnout to the cat? Did you assemble it and mark it before welding?

THANKS,
Pat

 

[ViperTony]

Excellent! Thanks Tony. I thought that maybe the "originals" were only for the Jet-Hot coating. There were no washers etc.

OK, last question. What is the best way to make sure the entire exhaust system fits together when you are welding the turnout to the cat? Did you assemble it and mark it before welding?

THANKS,
Pat

I installed a complete Belanger exhaust (catback/headers) with RT cats. I ended up initially clamping the cats to the turnouts using Accuseal clamps. I then took off the entire side sections of the Belanger exhaust ( turnout to rear hookup) and took it to a welder. The accuseal clamps kept everything together. I know others have tack-weld the joints with the exhaust on the car and then removed it to complete the weld. You can mark it, take it off, tack weld and re-fit to make sure you have everything lined up before completing the weld. Which exhaust do you have?

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

I installed a complete Belanger exhaust (catback/headers) with RT cats. I ended up initially clamping the cats to the turnouts using Accuseal clamps. I then took off the entire side sections of the Belanger exhaust ( turnout to rear hookup) and took it to a welder. The accuseal clamps kept everything together. I know others have tack-weld the joints with the exhaust on the car and then removed it to complete the weld. You can mark it, take it off, tack weld and re-fit to make sure you have everything lined up before completing the weld. Which exhaust do you have?

I'm following your lead on welding the turnout to the cat. My cats are RT high flows, and the rest of the exhaust is RT. The headers are the last bit, so I just removed the reducer to get the stock header to fit the RT cat. I've got the cat and resonator off, so I'm just trying to figure out the best way to weld it and get it to fit. Sounds like tack weld is a good idea. The rest of the system is clamped, but no known leaks or codes in 2 years.

 

[plumcrazy]

ViperTony = Belanger expert now

 

[dave6666]

Here is Lou's advise to me when I asked about welding versus clamping.

Cats - weld both sides.

Mufflers - weld front, clamp rear with 1" weld.

Tips - fully weld.

This is for my conversion to side exhaust that I'm gonna do in April when I get off my lazy ass. After that I will be a Belanger expert too.

 

[ViperTony]

ViperTony = Belanger expert now

LOL..not quite but it is amazing how much information you can pick up from Lou on the telephone.

 

[pedro]

I installed vband and never had a problem eBay Motors: 2.5" V-Band CNC FLANGE Kit Turbo Downpipe Vband Clamp 3 (item 320227034808 end time Mar-20-08 22:17:15 PDT)

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Just a quick update for anyone interested. I just finished my Belanger install. I put in new Bosch O2 sensors in the lower **** on the headers. I have the Roe PCM, so I do not anticipate any issues from using the lower vs. upper ****. The Bosch are a little taller than stock, so I had to cut small holes in the aluminum plates just above the headers for wiring. I did not need any O2 sensor wiring extensions, but did disconnect the connectors from the motor mounts.

I initially just removed the top of the AC box, but ended up removing the blower assembly. That made the passenger side easy. I could not get the passenger side header in place until I did that. It was easy to do, and made a big difference in space.

I had a wide band O2 sensor **** put in the turnout. No issues except made sure the welder covered the flange area with cold towel to eliminate any thermal issues and warping.

I decided to ignore Tony's experience and just clamp my RT high flow cats to the Belanger turn out. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. At least with RT cats, the fit to the turnout is real real tight. Just to get the turnout into the cat was a real beech. A clamp never would have held.

I used an angle grinder to custom sand the turnout to get it to engage sufficiently in the cat, and then had them welded. Again using the cold towel to protect the turnout flange.

I finally carefully cut off the other end of the cat to custom fit the piece to the rest of the RT exhaust. I'm real happy with the outcome.

This thread has a lot of good info. But here's one more item. In deciding what washers to use, I came across a lot of info. "The proper place for split-lock washers is in the trash can." The Belangers come with split-lock washers for some of the joints. I substituted star washers for them. I got to thinking if I had ever seen a split-lock washer anywhere on the car as it came from the factory. I don't think so. Anyone?

 

[dave6666]

More good info. Thanks. Still coming up with good reasons to postpone my install, so ya'll just keep testing the waters for me.

On the hardware locking issue, I use Flexloc nuts:

You must be registered for see images

Kind of expensive, but all metal. Use them on flanges of my off road car and have never had one seize or come loose.

Did you reinstall your heat shields?

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

More good info. Thanks. Still coming up with good reasons to postpone my install, so ya'll just keep testing the waters for me.

On the hardware locking issue, I use Flexloc nuts:

You must be registered for see images

Kind of expensive, but all metal. Use them on flanges of my off road car and have never had one seize or come loose.

Did you reinstall your heat shields?

Dang. I like your Flexloc nuts. Thinking about an upgrade.....

No, no heat shields. Hopefully, the emissivity factor of the Jet Hot coating will reduce radiation to the hood. Of course, if the car starts on fire I will install them.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Latest update. I have small leaks on both sides at the 2 bolt flange. So, I did a search for gaskets and found the "6869" gaskets on another thread. Looks like I'm going to try the gasket route. I'm trying to decide if I should put in some copper gaskets while I'm in there at the collector. Summit sells a 3" dead soft copper gasket.

Tony, any advice on how to put the gaskets in with the least amount of disassembly?

 

[ViperTony]

Latest update. I have small leaks on both sides at the 2 bolt flange. So, I did a search for gaskets and found the "6869" gaskets on another thread. Looks like I'm going to try the gasket route. I'm trying to decide if I should put in some copper gaskets while I'm in there at the collector. Summit sells a 3" dead soft copper gasket.

Tony, any advice on how to put the gaskets in with the least amount of disassembly?

Lou will tell you to loosen the 2 bolt flanges and then loosen the header-manifold bolts as well. Basically, reverse his installation instructions. You're supposed to align and tighten down the 2 bolt flanges then go back and torque down the header manifold bolts. Chances are if you didn't do this step initially during installation, it could lead to a leak at those 2 bolt flanges.

 

[dave6666]

Lou will tell you to loosen the 2 bolt flanges and then loosen the header-manifold bolts as well. Basically, reverse his installation instructions. You're supposed to align and tighten down the 2 bolt flanges then go back and torque down the header manifold bolts. Chances are if you didn't do this step initially during installation, it could lead to a leak at those 2 bolt flanges.

Speaking of loosening the header flanges at the heads when pulling the merge collector off... Are those metal exhaust gaskets at the heads reusable? Or loosen the head screws, put new gaskets in too?

 

[ViperTony]

They header-manifold metal gaskets are reusable unless they're in really bad shape. Chuck told me to reuse them and they've worked fine.