Beyond The 2014 Viper?

[Raisin Man]

What do you guys think about Sharps's comments?

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2013/10/soaring-past-the-gen-v-viper

 

[ViperSmith]

I don't really think the solution is to build a 2015 version of the 1992 Viper. No AC? Metal dash? While there maybe a market for it, I really am unsure who'd jump in at even his proposed $55,000 price tag. I certainly would have no interest.

I think sacking the marketing department and getting dealers on a short leash would be helpful.

 

[shine]

It's a really confusing article. What he sounds like he wants is an Ariel Atom or Caterham Seven, both of which are neat cars, but neither of which are particularly appealing to Viper owners.

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[shine]

Re-reading it again, it's nothing short of insulting to current, former, and future Viper owners.

Seriously.

Slamming the couple with the 65 Vipers unnecessarily?

Praising European styling and power over American?

Ditching the V-10 for a V-8?

Insinuating the Ralph Gilles is all personality and no skill?

In addition to the comments that led me to post the pictures above, which is what I think he wants Viper to become.

The entire article should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[09 Venom]

55k Viper, no way. It will be more common than the vette. I have not seen one Gen V on the road, besides mine, in the last 5 months.

 

[ferraritoviper]

I thought it was a rambling treatise and eventual wish list...rather boring too. Certainly, he gave no consideration to the skimpy design/build budget provided by Chrysler, and the overall time constraints, not to mention that the car was dead and buried, until Sergio saw the Stryker Red and fast tracked the go ahead. I'm sure Chrysler/SRT won't be asking for this guys input ever again!! As for his foolish rap against the folks who own the numerous Vipers, came out of nowhere and has no context, and was totally unfair and off the wall. Sour Grapes...and stay in EuroVille! SRT's obvious concern right now is the American market.

 

[viper GTS-R]

Normally I don't read Allpar articles cause 90% of the time they are full of fluff and crap anyway...

But I want to focus on one paragraph.

'A year or two ago, the Viper community was firmly against any suggestion of an engine other than the “big Ten.” That seems to have changed, with an increasing number of people now suggesting that, if it does the job, a V8 would work. Losing to Corvettes, with their eight cylinders to Viper’s ten, has probably had a lot to do with the attitude change. I believe that if higher performance can be had from a Hemi, that Viper owners, and new demographic prospective buyers would accept it. What’s more, it would allow Chrysler to cut their costs quite a bit and end an outsourced tuning program that yields no benefit for anything else in their product lines.'

Ian who do you work for now? Secondly, there are a handful, HANDFUL of people that want a V8 Viper. You make it sound like thousands do.

In the early 90's it almost happened, but it never will. If you shove a V8 in a Viper there is absolutely NO market for such a thing and the Viper becomes another Corvette. It's becomes just another sports car, no longer unique by it's designers, engineers, builders and possible owners.

The V8 is better than the V10 because years ago Team 'Jake' whined the car was making to much power. The GTS-R program was choked the same way it is now and since then Ferrari is a major competitor again.

If the car means such a big deal to you, Mr. Crisis Manager, why don't you ask for your job back?

After all that's what the article is about right? Getting a job?

--RS

 

[Nine Ball]

Yeah, I disagree with just about all of the stuff he is asking for. But, I would like to see a mega-******** package for any upcoming ACR, with a bare bones interior sans fluff. Even the A/C should be optional in an ACR. I have no interest in a V8 Viper, but would like to see a forced induction V10...

 

[ohlarikd]

I could not understand what his rambling thoughts were trying to say.

"This is a sport car, and it must be sold at a list price of no more than $55K. The performance must be able to at least take it to the Corvette C7 up to 100 mph, and equal or beat the C7 around Laguna Seca."

He described the envisioned Viper as raw with a zipper roof, metal interior, no AC, and a V8. He says it doesn't need any creature comforts, but then tries to say it must able to at LEAST take on a C7. The C7 has everything he wants to remove at the same price point. So then what is the point of a stripper Viper if a new luxury C7 will be comparable? Who would choose a stripped V8 Viper over a comparably luxurious V8 C7 with the same performance?

 

[Steve M]

Awesome...a Dodge Corvette. Just what the world needs.

 

[SnakeEye]

What do you guys think about Sharps's comments?

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2013/10/soaring-past-the-gen-v-viper

Rambling nonsense.

 

[v10enomous]

What a Crock of **** !

 

[vpower01]

Yeah, I disagree with just about all of the stuff he is asking for. But, I would like to see a mega-******** package for any upcoming ACR, with a bare bones interior sans fluff. Even the A/C should be optional in an ACR. I have no interest in a V8 Viper, but would like to see a forced induction V10...

+1 That would be nice to see a Super viper.
Or you can go to RSI for now until others get the software.
The guy just comes off as looking for a job.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Awesome...a Dodge Corvette. Just what the world needs.

 

[Ian]

Ian Sharp.

Bump - Hi guys I am working on a response to this thread for you, and to answer the two-word, and emoticon responses - but I am editing down the words to single sylabylls for those guys.

 

[VRYALT3R3D]

This is a sport car, and it must be sold at a list price of no more than $55K.

No thanks. Why would SRT do that? It only cheapens the Viper's brand.

 

[Ian]

---->VRYALT3R3D....errrrr..... perhaps you hadn't heard, but there are nearly 600 unsold Viper at dealers. The brand is in serious trouble of disappearing. Mr Marchionne is a hard nose exec, he has to be and he will have no compunction to keep a non-performing brand around....and there won't be a brand to cheapen. I am afraid that these "head in the sand" comments on the VCA board are partly what was listened too by SRT, and consequently why we are at the state we are in.

 

[VRYALT3R3D]

---->VRYALT3R3D....errrrr..... perhaps you hadn't heard, but there are nearly 600 unsold Viper at dealers. The brand is in serious trouble of disappearing. Mr Marchionne is a hard nose exec, he has to be and he will have no compunction to keep a non-performing brand around....and there won't be a brand to cheapen. I am afraid that these "head in the sand" comments on the VCA board are partly what was listened too by SRT, and consequently why we are at the state we are in.

The Viper is sold out from an OEM's perspective. The only issue is for the dealers who have them on floorplan. I think many dealers have them on the lot loaded to maximize profits. Since it is on floorplan and the banks own them, they have no incentive to sell them...yet.

 

[Ian]

Chrysler always marks a car sold "off their books", as a sale when it is delivered to a dealer. In fact as it leaves the hold yard on a transporter or rail car it is considered a sale "off their books". That is true for Jeep, etc....I know. When it is at a a dealer, that is not a customer sale.

So the dealer has no incentive to sell them....what a strange perspective because they want to hold them on floorplan ?

 

[ViperSmith]

Chrysler always marks a car sold "off their books", as a sale when it is delivered to a dealer. In fact as it leaves the hold yard on a transporter or rail car it is considered a sale "off their books". That is true for Jeep, etc....I know. When it is at a a dealer, that is not a customer sale.

So the dealer has no incentive to sell them....what a strange perspective because they want to hold them on floorplan ?

Perhaps dealers shouldn't have put $50,000 ADM on the cars when they first got them.

Sorry, I feel nothing for dealers sitting on cars at the moment. They deserve it, for many reasons.

 

[viper vince]

Why would they bring out an acr if they cannot sell what they got. If they brought out an acr no one would buy the existing inventory. I think the viper days are numbered. Too much money!!!

 

[chorps]

I think Ian's treatise is interesting, and it is pushing management for boldness rather than timidness.

Whatever the specifics he does provide, it must bring all the stakeholders to the table and question, what does the company want the Viper to be? What do customers think defines the Viper? How can they make a car that will satisfy the faithful, gain new customers and be profitable?

Part of the facts are that Chrysler has traditionally not had a lot of money for R&D, it always seems like a boom-bust cycle for them, and the Viper always gets the short shrift when pulling out budgets for development.

However, the shoe string budgets are no longer effective, because the competitors are no longer pushovers. The Viper has tended to be able to pull out trump cards by doing things that are so outrageous that competitors could not or would go there. That's the basis of the original big V-10, that's why the last ACR came out with crazy aero bits, but competitors are not dumb and have always put in the work to move things forward...catching up and surpassing Vipers in power and performance.

So, what defines the Viper? I know there's been radical proposals for V8 Vipers, Mid engined Vipers, Vipers as the highest technology vanguards for the rest of SRT and Chrysler. These ideas all came from [SRT] Engineers, not from web forum wannabes. Management turned them all down, to do the [most] conservative/cheapest thing possible. In some ways that is dismaying for the Engineers, because they all know that their competitors are NOT doing the same old thing for their next car.

Everyone else is swinging for the fences. In some ways, their own legacies can tie them down, and SRT Engineers want to use those legacies as a weakness. Is the Viper also tied down by certain legacies? Maybe. Front engine, V-10, wedgeheads, RWD, manual transmissions, pushrods, 8+ L... are those all inviolate Viper conditions, just like a 911 is weighed down by the rear-engined flat six?

When the 911 went from air cooling to water cooling, was that the end of the 'real' 911? There were lots of old school Porsche owners who thought that it was, and I think the Viper faithful need to figure out what defines the Viper for them, simply because it is getting harder to be at the top of the performance game using the same formula as before, and changes need to come.

I may not agree with all of or any of Ian's ideas, but I love the idea that he is putting out an open letter to figure out what the next steps for the Viper are, because it seems to be that the same old formula is definitely the weakest choice for survival.

 

[Camfab]

Ok Ian you certainly have insight and you are correct about many points, however I have to disagree with your path. The Viper was and always will be a true halo car. Your right sales have slipped, but it's certainly not because of the current approach. It's because the current approach was not taken to the outer limits. Is it because of a lack of funding, I'm guessing yes. The Mustang has a 668 HP edition, that's the problem, the Viper was an outlandish beast of a dragon slayer in its first two generations. The audience that existed then still exists today, Lamborghini is the Italian version of what a Dodge Viper is or should be. If the current generation Viper had 850 HP and 850 ft/lb of torque with some serious carbon rotors, the car wouldn't be sitting in showroom floors. The Viper concept not only visually devastated the competition but it did so performance wise as well. Setting the Viper standard as a Corvette ****** is a joke, the car should be a world ******, and cost is not an issue. Their are plenty of wealthy individuals that want the best with an American attitude.

The guy that bought the Viper twenty years, bought the car because it had outrageous pure American styling with unbeatable performance stats. The same guys are out there today. Nobody wants a car they have to make excuses for, that's for different car marks. When you buy into the Viper, your supposed to buy an unbeatable legend. When that returns, you won't have Vipers collecting dust. The Viper audience is and will always be fiercely loyal, however they expect the best.

 

[Ian]

Thank you - Now we are starting to get some serious discussion and input....I am finishing another little treatise....(well a long missive actually) which you can all tear apart, but hey at least some genuine passion it appear is developing....

How about 1,000+ Hp for the road ? in a controlled way to that takes into account of varying driver abilities and in a

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benign way ?

 

[Ian]

Thank you - Now we are starting to get some serious discussion and input....I am finish another little....well long missive actually..... which you can all tear apart, but hey at least some genuine passion it appears is developing....

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[ViperSmith]

I think Ian's treatise is interesting, and it is pushing management for boldness rather than timidness.

Whatever the specifics he does provide, it must bring all the stakeholders to the table and question, what does the company want the Viper to be? What do customers think defines the Viper? How can they make a car that will satisfy the faithful, gain new customers and be profitable?

Part of the facts are that Chrysler has traditionally not had a lot of money for R&D, it always seems like a boom-bust cycle for them, and the Viper always gets the short shrift when pulling out budgets for development.

However, the shoe string budgets are no longer effective, because the competitors are no longer pushovers. The Viper has tended to be able to pull out trump cards by doing things that are so outrageous that competitors could not or would go there. That's the basis of the original big V-10, that's why the last ACR came out with crazy aero bits, but competitors are not dumb and have always put in the work to move things forward...catching up and surpassing Vipers in power and performance.

So, what defines the Viper? I know there's been radical proposals for V8 Vipers, Mid engined Vipers, Vipers as the highest technology vanguards for the rest of SRT and Chrysler. These ideas all came from [SRT] Engineers, not from web forum wannabes. Management turned them all down, to do the [most] conservative/cheapest thing possible. In some ways that is dismaying for the Engineers, because they all know that their competitors are NOT doing the same old thing for their next car.

Everyone else is swinging for the fences. In some ways, their own legacies can tie them down, and SRT Engineers want to use those legacies as a weakness. Is the Viper also tied down by certain legacies? Maybe. Front engine, V-10, wedgeheads, RWD, manual transmissions, pushrods, 8+ L... are those all inviolate Viper conditions, just like a 911 is weighed down by the rear-engined flat six?

When the 911 went from air cooling to water cooling, was that the end of the 'real' 911? There were lots of old school Porsche owners who thought that it was, and I think the Viper faithful need to figure out what defines the Viper for them, simply because it is getting harder to be at the top of the performance game using the same formula as before, and changes need to come.

I may not agree with all of or any of Ian's ideas, but I love the idea that he is putting out an open letter to figure out what the next steps for the Viper are, because it seems to be that the same old formula is definitely the weakest choice for survival.

I wouldn't mind a clean sheet design if it was radical, completely innovative, and just destroyed everyone else (Which lets be fair, it isn't 1992 anymore and it isn't easy).

A powerful V8 would be fine in my mind. I wouldn't mind AWD, DCT, rear engined - but if you are going to go that route, it better be something I can't say no to.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

Well, Ian, if they want to sell more Vipers, they need to advertise them more and also supply the people who are going to be evaluating them, with a car that has been through a thorough QC check. Marketing needs to be fired and new individuals hired who want to show the Viper for what it is. The Viper is a halo car for Chrysler and as such should be presented as such. The Viper takes no prisoners and makes no excuses. It shows up to win. It is not benchmarked against an older model but is built to surpass what the competiton will bring forth. You don't show up for a game to tie. You show up to win!

A new Viper model with a Targa top, a reduction of weight, better brakes, and offers tuning so that buyers can mod the hell out of it if they so choose. Here is what is limiting sales. Most guys who buy cars that have power want more power. Unfortunately, Viper owners of the latest generations don't have that luxury without spending alot more money than the competition. And as others have stated, sell the car through Ferrari/Maserati dealerships. And if they are going to sell them through Dodge dealerships, then at least have these dealerships know what the hell they are talking about. And have them treat the customers like people who are going to buy something at this price point. All people deserve to be treated like they can afford the car but when they have people drive up in a Viper, then they should go out of their way to sell the car to them.

And if the car is going to go out, then let it go out with a sonic boom! Put a damn supercharger on it and let it have bragging rights for HP so that any OEM GM product will cower down. Beef up the rear end and add the possibility of having a DCT and an eLSD.

 

[Ian]

-----> Vipersmith.

Well how about this spec, which is all achievable with existing technology.

- 800+ Hp for 30 secs (Able to be Developed beyond 1,000+ easily)
- 700+ Hp continuous
- 75% less emissions of CO2, almost zero NOX,
- 40 mpg (Gasoline equivalent)
- 4WD

To make a business case 1,000 hp = 1,000 vehicles built over 3 yrs production @ $ 200K msrp

Styled off -

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[Ian]

Also suggest looking at this thread.

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/668936-Awesome-Watch!?highlight=WATCHES

 

[chorps]

Thank you - Now we are starting to get some serious discussion and input....I am finish another little....well long missive actually..... which you can all tear apart, but hey at least some genuine passion it appears is developing....

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Hell yeah. The problem with putting in an axial flux motor, no matter how small, would mean the packaging efficiency would be of paramount importance because you're going to need the battery/capacitor/energy storage system.

If we're going down that road, I vote for oval pistons too, to shorten up the block so that a OHV 10-cylinder design would be as short as a traditional OHV 8-cylinder block. That would push the transmission forward enough to improve cabin room, and then the rear space for the flux motor, energy storage etc. However, that would presume adding more power onto the rear tires, which is already at a point of diminishing traction returns.

Alternatively push the block back with a front engine oval piston 8-cylinder OHV with the transmission in the back like the Corvette. This might be too close for comfort, but then you can add the energy storage in the back and put a KERS/flux motor in front of the engine to drive the front wheels. AWD sort of stinks for purist reasons, but the added traction by using the front tires for acceleration would mean that the Viper would be competitive against 911 turbos and GT-Rs again in the 1/4 mile.

In both cases, you can put a leaf on the side of the Viper for the hybrid feel good.

Get the Chrysler faithful back on board and do some real development instead of warming over yesterday's work. Inspire people by leading...the Viper should always be at the point of Chrysler's sword, the sharp point that no one messes with.