Boy. Some some people are so fickle.

[Bobpantax]

Sometimes a design and engineering team hits one out of the park. The TA is one of those times. The car fits my needs and likes perfectly. And, on top of that, it has great exclusivity.

 

[Bobpantax]

Another observation:

It is 65 degrees here now. The car has 650 miles on it. It was time to see how the standard setting nannytech ESC works. I drove it to a place where if the rear hung out too far, I had room to avoid a problem. I intentionally did not let the tires heat up fully. I brought it up to 20 MPH in first gear and then went to WOT. Something that was totally unfamiliar to me in a Viper happened. It started to kick the rear out but the tech kicked in and stopped it enough to straighten it out. It worked very well.

I do not intend to rely on it but it is nice to know that it is there.

The tech part of the car, to my great surprise, continues to interest and amuse me despite my Jurassic roots. I have to admit that now that I have all of this tech capability in the car: on the fly adjustable suspension, UConnect, ESC, passive entry, etc., and am used to it, I really would not want to give it up. Part of me feels like a traitor to my former Gen II and Gen III. But that part is getting smaller every day.

 

[GRANGER73]

I hope it's not the part that separates the men from the boys.

 

[Bobpantax]

Funny. Just the guilt is getting less. I know it seems silly but my former modded cars that I traded are like children who left the nest. Quite a few posts over the years show that many members have a large emotional investment in their cars. This probably plays a much bigger role in whether or not they get a new Viper than we might think. I know it did for me.

 

[johniew398]

Another observation:

It is 65 degrees here now. The car has 650 miles on it. It was time to see how the standard setting nannytech ESC works. I drove it to a place where if the rear hung out too far, I had room to avoid a problem. I intentionally did not let the tires heat up fully. I brought it up to 20 MPH in first gear and then went to WOT. Something that was totally unfamiliar to me in a Viper happened. It started to kick the rear out but the tech kicked in and stopped it enough to straighten it out. It worked very well.

I do not intend to rely on it but it is nice to know that it is there.

The tech part of the car, to my great surprise, continues to interest and amuse me despite my Jurassic roots. I have to admit that now that I have all of this tech capability in the car: on the fly adjustable suspension, UConnect, ESC, passive entry, etc., and am used to it, I really would not want to give it up. Part of me feels like a traitor to my former Gen II and Gen III. But that part is getting smaller every day.

Thanks for the feedback on that. I only have 200 miles on mine so far so I will have to wait to try that someplace safe.

 

[Bobpantax]

Update:

I now have driven the TA a bit more than 1000 miles. I had the oil and filter changed at 1000 mles just to take a look at the oil and because I like to change it out after the break in period (500 miles) but the idle is at 1000 RPM until 1000 miles then it drops down a bit after that. (This is preprogrammed in to the car.)

The oil was cleaner than I expected it to be. Four free oil changes came with the car which was a nice perk.

While it was up on the lift, I took a close look underneath. I have commented on the fit and finish before but I had not previously seen underneath. The work underneath was also perfect.

I have to say it again. The fit and finish of this car are at an entirely different level on the exterior, interior, engine bay, and underneath. It is almost irritating that I have not found anything wrong. LOL.

Today I discovered that I can put my cell phone in the small pocket/storage area in the door. I had not noticed that before. And speaking of doors, they close perfectly and the window regulators continue to work perfectly.

The passive entry system is one of those things that gets cooler with use. You just put the key fob in your pocket and the car unlocks as you walk up to it. I believe it also locks as you walk away from it but I am too paranoid to trust that so I always lock it anyway.

I mentioned that the shifting is as good as it was on my prior car which had the MGW shifting mechanism under the shift lever on a John Donato prepared Gen IV transmission. The shifting has improved even more now after the break in period.

I have done a bit of handling testing at a bit more speed now. The car is confidence inspiring. It is clearly a bit more predictable than prior Gens.

The TA seats are better on my back than my Gen II or Gen III seats were and that is a significant issue for me.

The lighter clutch is much easier on my knee.

There is one danger to this car. The stock stereo system is now so good - at least to me - that when I have the Rolling Stones on media and the volume cranked up, it is very easy to not notice the fact that the car has decided to go faster. It is easier to get a bit euphoric while driving this car. Be careful out there.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

Bob,SRT should hire you to promote the Gen.5 Vipers.... The TA ,in my opinion is the best Viper Dodge/SRT has ever produced..Your Black TA may have a duplicate one here in Palm beach soon...

 

[Bruce H.]

Thanks for the update, Bob...I was actually hoping to hear how your impressions might have changed. These cars will likely remain the best kept secret for a very long time, despite owner's very positive reviews, and their sales numbers too low to appear on any JD Power Customer Satisfaction survey listings or Consumer Reports. What are the short-comings that you think would keep the car from being comparable with the European supercars and exotics?

Bruce

 

[Bobpantax]

I will answer your qustion with a question. What do you think the short-comings of the alleged European supercars or exotics are that keep them from being as engaging for the driver as a Viper?

Thanks for the update, Bob...I was actually hoping to hear how your impressions might have changed. These cars will likely remain the best kept secret for a very long time, despite owner's very positive reviews, and their sales numbers too low to appear on any JD Power Customer Satisfaction survey listings or Consumer Reports. What are the short-comings that you think would keep the car from being comparable with the European supercars and exotics?

Bruce

 

[PDCjonny]

Somehow I have a feeling buyers of the "alleged European Supercars" feel quite comfortable with their decision and feel equally engaged.
The premise that because the may have paddles versus a manual they can't be "engaged" with the car is myopic.

 

[Bruce H.]

I will answer your qustion with a question. What do you think the short-comings of the alleged European supercars or exotics are that keep them from being as engaging for the driver as a Viper?

Not sure how your question answers mine, but I'll have a go at it. I would think that some could be as engaging for the driver, although perhaps in different ways. My recent experience owning a paddle shift GT fell short for engagement compared to any one of the many manuals I've owned. A friend owned a Gallardo for maybe two months and found it both too refined and not engaging enough, and traded it for the more raw Murcielago which he's now enjoyed for a few years. I've heard the same criticism from owners of a variety of other cars, and found my GT too refined for my sporting needs. And other drivers are put off by even the thought of having a lot of electronic nannies in the car, and I do find that I prefer to completely shut off what nannies I can when tracking my paddled GT. Buyers of a GT-R likely choose it for the nannies if they put performance ahead of engagement.

So while transmission, refinement and electronics could reduce the level of driver engagement for some, including myself, aspects that could/would enhance it would be driving position and controls, engine placement, outward forward vision (particularly for tracking), exhaust note, engine redline, and all aspects related to the driver's connection to the car, feedback from it, and the car's handling (particularly at the limit). A mid-rear engine layout is different in many ways, and I think it goes without saying that many of the most engaging cars are of that type. My modified '93 MR2 T below is of this type, and engaging beyond words on the road and track.

Is there anything you could see changing or improving on the TA? I see many changing the exhaust system, and that might be considered one thing as exotics often have exhaust notes to rave about.

Bruce

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks Bruce. I would say that for all but the richest people, it is far easier to enjoy the Gen V Viper, a variant of which holds the current LS record for production cars, at a base suggested price of $102,485 than spend the kind of money the other cars that you are referencing cost and then not have that cost affect how the car is driven.

One of the reasons the TA is such a great car is that at a suggested price of $120,480, it is a screaming bargain for the performance capabilities offered inside an inspired design. Other than the price and the fact that the SRT brand is in its infancy and does not have the history and marketing cache of some of the other brands, I think the Viper is an American supercar and exotic.

Chrysler owns the SRT brand and it owns Ferrari. One of these days, someone is going to call the Ferrari the Italian Viper. Oops! I just did didn't I.

 

[johniew398]

As a TA owner with only 300 miles on mine I can tell you the shortcomings.

It's the stupid ass weather here that keeps mine in the garage!

 

[ViperSmith]

Somehow I have a feeling buyers of the "alleged European Supercars" feel quite comfortable with their decision and feel equally engaged.
The premise that because the may have paddles versus a manual they can't be "engaged" with the car is myopic.

I enjoy the manual, but in reality you don't put much thought into shifting. It really is just second nature, even downshifting 2-3 gears. I really don't get the hardline stance on it.

 

[Bobpantax]

Watch this video and you will start to get it.

McLaren F1 and Ferrari F40 vs analogue rivals | evo TV - YouTube

 

[Bruce H.]

I enjoy the manual, but in reality you don't put much thought into shifting. It really is just second nature, even downshifting 2-3 gears. I really don't get the hardline stance on it.

There's certainly a tremendous amount of thought that goes into it when driven aggressively on track, or your favorite challenging twisting road. Experience and skill allows one to perform much of it subconsciously, but it is completely engaging, and often at high risk if not done well. The driver keeps track of the current gear in order to select the next gear he'll select, shifts are planned based on reading the road ahead, upshift rpm points are done by ear, next gear selected based on knowing the current gear, timing the upshift so as not to unbalance the car during cornering/cresting/low grip, co-ordinating the clutch/throttle/lever into the correct gear and doing it smoothly to maintain car control when approaching the limits of adhesion, downshifting planned and executed often while under hard braking, done by ear, driver providing the timing and amount of throttle blip to maintain rear tire grip and car control, or loss of rear grip done purposely to pivot the rear of the car in a very tight corner, corner exit gear planned prior to entering the corner to prevent mid-corner shifting and ensure maximum exit speed and control. You have to do all of that correctly in rapid-fire succession on a race track, while passing cars, analysing the road ahead, monitoring other traffic in your mirrors, picking brake points and so on, and do it dozens of times within maybe 90 seconds around a 2.5 mile track at speeds up to 150 mph! You definitely have to put some thought into it on a race track or favorite twisty road driven aggressively, although things are a lot more relaxed when cruising around town. You need to get out on the track with yours...and post those videos!!!

A track friend with a GT-R with DCT finds his quickest lap times are in full auto mode and he doesn't have to do anything related to shifting that I mentioned above. That makes it a lot less engaging.

Bruce

 

[PDCjonny]

In a few years it will be a quaint romantic memory rowing through the gears.
Meanwhile the fastest times will be modern lightning fast paddle shifting trannies in all their variants.
It's the future and the public will demand it and want it.
ViperSmith agrees with me...

 

[Bruce H.]

I disagree. The future is here, many of the fastest cars have DCT's, and yet the top performers are modern cars with manuals. The romance with the manual will endure as long as the romance with the automobile itself, and likely become even more highly sought after in high performance cars by many driving enthusiast as it becomes more rare. Today's Stingray's auto is said to shift quicker than the 991's PDK, yet the 7 speed manual version of the Vette is very popular. I could have bought a car with a DCT but specifically chose one with a manual to enjoy. If I lose the driving skills or physical ability to operate a manual I'll be happy to buy an auto. Most car buyers of the future will be far more interested in how they can stay connected to the social media than to the automobile, or to be able to drive quickly with minimal effort, and the future will appeal to them.

Bruce

 

[Bobpantax]

I have the TA now. I have been driving it at least a little every day. I will let others worry about the future of autos and where they may or may not get to. Obama still has three more years in office. He may wake up one of these days and decide to issue some sort of executive order that impairs the whole performance segment going forward. Remember the end of the last performance years? I do. It came fast.

Muscle cars from the 60s and early 70s are going for big dollars. There is a big demand for cars that require a skill set. Not everyone wants to be a "connected" nanny teched Borg. That is why there is a secret, covert Viper op working on a computer virus that will infect the controllers of the "Eurpoean supercars and exotics" that once inserted will cause each of those cars to laugh and say "Viper" when you try to start them. LOL.

 

[kenphjr]

I have done a bit of handling testing at a bit more speed now. The car is confidence inspiring. It is clearly a bit more predictable than prior Gens.
I still want to see you drive it during a cat 5 hurricane with the rain mode on and off and let us know how it handles-Thank you

 

[VRYALT3R3D]

In a few years it will be a quaint romantic memory rowing through the gears.
Meanwhile the fastest times will be modern lightning fast paddle shifting trannies in all their variants.
It's the future and the public will demand it and want it.
ViperSmith agrees with me...

Unless you're buying a dedicated track car, your car will spend 99% of the time on the street, where those tenths of a second saved by the flappy paddle transmission will mean absolutely nothing, and you will have a car that feels less involved and will ultimately be less satisfying to drive.

 

[PDCjonny]

Unless you're buying a dedicated track car, your car will spend 99% of the time on the street, where those tenths of a second saved by the flappy paddle transmission will mean absolutely nothing, and you will have a car that feels less involved and will ultimately be less satisfying to drive.

Doesn't matter, they're not using half of the cars power capabilities on the street either but they still want the newest tech.
Pretty sure guys driving 458's and Aventadors are having a very satisfying time.
Time to retire the "less satisfying" old bromide, it's over used and completely arbitrary.

 

[Bobpantax]

Differing opinions make the discussion and this thread is about my experience with the TA and any questions someone may have to me and others who have a TA. What is an old bromide to you is truth to many of us.

I think we all get your point. Please post a thread in the "Driven" subforum when you get your McClaren and/or Lambo and tell us about it.

Or, even better, buy a TA; drive it for awhile; and then tell us what you think as a number of those who have bought a TA have done. After all, this is the Gen V subforum.

 

[ViperSmith]

Unless you're buying a dedicated track car, your car will spend 99% of the time on the street, where those tenths of a second saved by the flappy paddle transmission will mean absolutely nothing, and you will have a car that feels less involved and will ultimately be less satisfying to drive.

I'd much prefer a DCT on the street, if anything. Especially the street.

 

[PDCjonny]

Bob you introduced the subject of European cars with your snarky comment about them.
You have the most amazing selective memory when needed.

 

[rollymohan]

I have number 57/93 orange TA and the interior is absolutely beautiful and well done.Driving this car is not like the other vipers,it makes you feel to not stop driving.It is very comfortable and when cruising you will forget that it is a viper until you accelerate and hear the beautiful sound of the exhaust begging you to push down on the accelerator pedal.

 

[Viper X]

There's certainly a tremendous amount of thought that goes into it when driven aggressively on track, or your favorite challenging twisting road. Experience and skill allows one to perform much of it subconsciously, but it is completely engaging, and often at high risk if not done well. The driver keeps track of the current gear in order to select the next gear he'll select, shifts are planned based on reading the road ahead, upshift rpm points are done by ear, next gear selected based on knowing the current gear, timing the upshift so as not to unbalance the car during cornering/cresting/low grip, co-ordinating the clutch/throttle/lever into the correct gear and doing it smoothly to maintain car control when approaching the limits of adhesion, downshifting planned and executed often while under hard braking, done by ear, driver providing the timing and amount of throttle blip to maintain rear tire grip and car control, or loss of rear grip done purposely to pivot the rear of the car in a very tight corner, corner exit gear planned prior to entering the corner to prevent mid-corner shifting and ensure maximum exit speed and control. You have to do all of that correctly in rapid-fire succession on a race track, while passing cars, analysing the road ahead, monitoring other traffic in your mirrors, picking brake points and so on, and do it dozens of times within maybe 90 seconds around a 2.5 mile track at speeds up to 150 mph! You definitely have to put some thought into it on a race track or favorite twisty road driven aggressively, although things are a lot more relaxed when cruising around town. You need to get out on the track with yours...and post those videos!!!

A track friend with a GT-R with DCT finds his quickest lap times are in full auto mode and he doesn't have to do anything related to shifting that I mentioned above. That makes it a lot less engaging.

Bruce

Bruce,

This is a great post. As a track guy myself, (over 50K track miles in Vipers), this really sums up what it takes to drive a Viper or any manual trans car on a track - just the shifting part! It really reminds me of just how much concentration and effort it takes to get relatively fast in a Viper.

Many of our owners NEVER get to this point with their cars, so it likely sounds a bit foreign to them. No criticism to those that don't as this is their choice.

Having instructed beginners in Vipers on the race track for a while, I can tell you that most Viper owners who think they know how to shift and drive the car, really don't.

On the other side, many times while on the track running against some very good drivers in cars with automated transmissions, a good paddle shifter trans would have been much easier to drive fast with a bunch less work and concentration required as no doubt these automated manuals can shift quicker than our true manuals; and some can shift without "lifting"!

Interesting discussion.

Dan

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

Chevy can say the Corvette can shift faster than the Porsche DCT,their is no way.The DCTs on the Turbo 911s are instant upshifts/downshifts.How can one get faster than instant and compared to the shifting thru the gears I do not a human could shift a performance like that continuously .So,if you like to shift and play with a clutch that is all good, but most times one will lose to the new high tect performance cars...

That includes the new Z06,that thing will be a animal and will be easy to drive for non professional people. I mean who like to lose at any thing...
SRT needs to step up and put a DCTs in the Gen 5s and they would surly sell way more Vipers then. than having hundreds of then sitting on dealer lots with fire sale prices...

 

[bushido]

Chevy can say the Corvette can shift faster than the Porsche DCT,their is no way.The DCTs on the Turbo 911s are instant upshifts/downshifts.How can one get faster than instant and compared to the shifting thru the gears .

This is from a transmission guy. It sounds logical..

There needs to be some clarification on transmission types and operation to have a proper discussion about the 8l90e. Any of these boxes could be build to operate manual or auto. Really there are two types of Gear sets Planetary and cog. Both exist in manual and auto form. A DCT is nothing more than two cog transmissions that alternate power flow, this allows the non powered transmission to preselect the next gear, The one clutch applies the other releases. Gear shifts are "clutch to clutch" (should actually be called transmission shifts) Planetary transmissions are always in all gears, it just comes down to how fast they can change what is spinning with what. (Ring gear, sun gear, planet gear)

The 8l90e will have planetary gears, and it will have "clutch to clutch" shifting just like a DCT. the difference it that there will be multiple clutch packs. likely once the converter locks it stays locked.(at least in performance mode) probably 2nd-8th.

GMs marketing department Should have called it "Multi clutch transmission" So that it would sound cool. As Long as the the computers are doing there job and hydraulic circut was designed correctly No reason that it can't shift at least as fast a dct.

 

[Bruce H.]

FFL, being the fastest at a track day actually gets boring. I hope I'm not too bored in my TA. I hope others will buy cars with DCTs or whatever it takes so I have someone to dice it up with because that's when it's truly fun. I'll be exceedingly happy if someone is faster as that will motivate me to improve my driving. If a car is faster because of a DCT I don't expect that will cause me to want to run out and buy one. I can't be the fastest all the time...I've accepted that. And it won't be someone in a Viper with a DCT as Ralph has made it clear that his singular vision is the Viper in a Mens size only, and that's 640 hp with an honest to god manual transmission.

Viper X, Thanks, I figured I'd skip the heel and toe and left foot braking bits in case any noobs were thinking of trying tracking for the first time!

Bruce