Brake fade

[Phoenix SRT]

I took my SRT-10 on the track recently and experienced some brake fade after about 15 minutes. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fortify the SRT's brakes?

Here are the circumstances: First, it was a fairly casual event. I wasn't racing wheel to wheel, nor even being timed, for that matter. By and large, I was driving at about 80% or so...the track doesn't have much in the way of barriers to hit, but going off would still cause more damage (dirt/stones to the paint and wheels) than I cared to risk by trying get the last bit of lap time.

Anyway, I completely changed the brake fluid from the factory fill to Castrol SRF immediately before the event. I'm told by a Viper racer (with Grand Am events on his resume) that the SRF beats Motul 600 for longevity and is just as good when it comes to not boiling. Whether the SRF is as good as the Motul may be subject to debate, but the SRF is plenty good stuff and is unlikely to be the problem. The pads and the rest of the brake system are OE.

The track has two places which required braking down from 120 or so to, maybe, 60-ish or a bit less (hey, I was fairly busy and didn't really concentrate on the speedometer). The track (Arizona Motorsports Park) has about 12 turns in total, though I forget the exact number. Air temperature was in the 80s.

My theory on braking is that I paid for the ABS, so I should use it - I threshold brake by engaging the ABS. (For those of you who think that is not the way to do it, please save it for another thread, as that is not the issue here. Thanks.) After about 15 minutes of this, the brakes started to fade. I still got some braking, but not enough to engage the ABS.

I've heard and read that the SRT's brakes are about as good as street brakes get, so what can I do to get 'em to last for a 20 or 30 minute session? Different pads? Better cooling? Throw 'em out and put on Stop Techs? It's not like I experienced a little fade after an hour lapping at Road America. I could understand that (my Gen 1's brakes didn't last 3 laps at RA!), but why won't they last at a fairly slow track like like AMP?

 

[Jim Hodel]

By fade do you mean spongy pedal and/or increased pedal travel, reduced braking effectiveness with good pedal pressure, or increased pedal travel and reduced braking? Also, what pads are you using? On my 99 GTS, I cooked the pads (Axis Ultimates) in my Stoptech system and the braking capability was reduced, but I didn't have increased pedal travel because I wasn't boiling the fluid. Pagid Oranges solved my problem.

Jim

 

[Phoenix SRT]

Pedal feel still seemed to be fairly good. Maybe the travel was increased some, but I don't recall for sure. The pedal did not go to the floor.

The pads are OE.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Fade seems like a catch all for anything less then ideal performance. If the fluid is not boiling you have good pedal then scratch that.

The ABS failing to engage may be due to excessive heat for the ABS wheel sensors? Better cooling seems like the first step.

How are the pads?

I saw 7 CC run an hour at Thunderhill which has 15 turn, three with prior good speed and 3 requiring good to some braking, turn one braking from 135-140 est. to ? I did not hear of any braking problems. The CC is a little lighter but it is faster so that should balance out. I would look at the CC brake cooling vs the SRT.

 

[SRTRICK]

I believe that the CC has a different brake pad than the SRT, I believe that is the only Mechanical difference to the actual brakes assemblies from what we have been told.

I have been wondering if it might be worth changing to a higher temp pad before I even drive the car & this report moves me in that direction. On a street pad the temperature range of the pad is lower at the high end, but they normally have higher initial bite when cold. This sounds to me like the pads temp range might have been exceeded.

Also, I am not familiar with the track you are describing, but often times the shorter tracks can be very ******* brakes as there are not long stretches for the brakes to cool down before another application. I once melted the center capps off my Corvette's Compomotive wheels at Blackhawk Farms, a relatively short track. Road America produced no such heat, and it's a verrrry long fast track.

 

[Tom Glenn]

Sounds like pad fade. I am located in Phoenix and have EBC track pads for the SRT, both Yellow and Blue. If you would like to try a set let me know. Ultimately if you do many track events you must get air to the front calipers. Are you going to AMP this weekend? There is a NASA event and I am thinking about taking the Comp Coupe out.

 

[SRTRICK]

Tom - would the red EBCs be useful for occasional track work and primarily autocross work? I dont want to have the typical hard pedal no brakes on cold application of typical race pads. There is no time to warm tham up at an autocross. Or conversely, how is the initial friction of the yellows??

 

[Janni]

... Are you going to AMP this weekend? There is a NASA event and I am thinking about taking the Comp Coupe out....

Why wasn't the Comp Coupe at Mid Ohio this past weekend? I thought that it was going to be at all the ViperDays events? Missed the pace car, too- didn't quite seem right having the Acura pace the VRL field....

 

[kverges]

I run EBC Yellow on my SRT street and track with good results and surpisingly little dust. I had no fade in 20-30 min sessions, but I did add ducts from the back of the fascia to the rotors. This is my experience at MotorSport Ranch.

 

[GTS Dean]

Keep your foot off the brake pedal and that will cure the fade problems. Anyways, brakes just slow you down...

 

[SRTRICK]

kverges, do the yellows have a cf similar to the stock pads when cold, or are they a bit dead til they heat up??

 

[kverges]

I find just the slightest extra effort with the yellows cold on the street. But anything over 50 mph and you can feel the coefficient of friction increase on your first stop. Personally, I prefer these pads because I can feel pad fade on greens in vigorous street driving and I'd rather press a little harder on a slow stop than wonder about whether a fast stop is going to happen.

Try it, you'll like it.

 

[SRTRICK]

Thanks Keith!

 

[Tom Glenn]

Janni, No customers for either car at Mid Ohio. With over $4000 in expenses for us to just show up with the cars it becomes a matter of economics.

 

[Gary Lashinsky]

Tom, just saw this post to Janni. You should think about bringing the Comp. Coupe, Pace car to MAM in two weeks and making arrangements with one of Viper Days suppliers to park your rig in the immeadiate area since most of the Viper Days events are in the Mid-West and East coast for the summer, rather than driving your rig from Arizona and back for each event. The exposure at the tracks may even bring you some walk up business. Wasn't the original idea to have the PVO CC at Viper Days for all the participants to see and consider a future purchase? It seem like good business and PR to do this. it does no good sitting in Arizona. We also need the Pace care for the VRL. Sonny was gracious enough to spend the time and money to equip. your cars for this purpose.

 

[Tom Glenn]

Gary,

Thanks you for your concern. Why would you think we plan on transporting our rig back to Phoenix after every event? In the past 1 1/2 year of running this program we have had one walk up customer for one session. At this time it appears we will not position ourselves to take advantage of this marketing bonanza. The original idea in relationship to the Comp Coupe is to make it available to prospective customers. We continue to do this at multiple venues. I am confident there are sufficient Comp Coupes at Viper Days for people to see. If someone would like to drive one please contact us and we will be there. Obviously it appears to you that our Comp Coupe should be at whatever event you are attending, but even in remote locations such as Arizona and California at events not organized by Viper Days there is tremendous interest in the Comp Coupe and as evidenced this last weekend prospective Comp Coupe buyers who were willing to pay to drive it. Sonny was very gracious in equipping our cars for pace cars in VRL. As we too were gracious in paying for the transport to his factory and making our cars available to pace VRL at no cost. (to the inconvenience of our customers) We have made a standing offer to the operators of the event, and will extend the offer to you, to make our pace car available at no cost for any event we do not attend. All you need to do is arrange for transportation. If in the future you would like all of the information prior to posting your conclusions please call me.
Sincerely,
Tom Glenn

 

[Gary Lashinsky]

Tom, thank you for your response. I will call you to talk to you further about my questions and concerns.

 

[JonB]

Comp Coupe indeed has a different pad.

SRT/10 can run Comp Coupe pads, poor street choice
Or BrakeMan 3.
Or EBC.

All available at PartsR....... well, you know.......Thanks

 

[JoeB]

Gary,

Thanks you for your concern. Why would you think we plan on transporting our rig back to Phoenix after every event? In the past 1 1/2 year of running this program we have had one walk up customer for one session. At this time it appears we will not position ourselves to take advantage of this marketing bonanza. The original idea in relationship to the Comp Coupe is to make it available to prospective customers. We continue to do this at multiple venues. I am confident there are sufficient Comp Coupes at Viper Days for people to see. If someone would like to drive one please contact us and we will be there. Obviously it appears to you that our Comp Coupe should be at whatever event you are attending, but even in remote locations such as Arizona and California at events not organized by Viper Days there is tremendous interest in the Comp Coupe and as evidenced this last weekend prospective Comp Coupe buyers who were willing to pay to drive it. Sonny was very gracious in equipping our cars for pace cars in VRL. As we too were gracious in paying for the transport to his factory and making our cars available to pace VRL at no cost. (to the inconvenience of our customers) We have made a standing offer to the operators of the event, and will extend the offer to you, to make our pace car available at no cost for any event we do not attend. All you need to do is arrange for transportation. If in the future you would like all of the information prior to posting your conclusions please call me.
Sincerely,
Tom Glenn

Tom,
Thanks for the time I had in the Comp Coupe, and agree with your statement as a business man. Not only would you have to transport the car to an event but what about the pit crew sitting around for 2 days waiting for a walk up, and your not making any money. Even Skip says he looses money at Viper Days. I see no legitimate reason to show up and hope for a customer at 4 k- plus a weekend. Some of these stuffed shirts (posers) on the Viper Board should rent the car. They will never buy one--But Boy what a ride.

Joe B ( a businessman also )01