Brakes - Going Lightweight - Gurus inside please

[EFI-1]

Aloha all, been searching and perusing the various brake threads on the forums and have come to an initial idea on what I'd like to do with my brake upgrade. I was wondering if anyone could provide feedback on the combo.....

Tom's 40mm rear calipers
Roe 13" slotted lightweight rotors on all 4 corners
S/S braided lines
ATE Superblue brake fluid
Pads: TBD but intended for street duty

I was wondering specifically if anyone is running the Roe 13" LW rotors? Any fitment issues, warping, etc?

What is a good streetpad in relation to aggressive stopping with as little noise and dusting as possible?

I'm hoping to reduce as much unsprung weight as possible, and while I would love to add some big blingy red calipers on the 4 corners, I'm particularly conscientious about the cars weight. I'm also concerned about fitment issues when I upgrade my wheels/tires (soon) as I'm looking at going with some concave monoblocks which limit brake clearance. It doesn't look like Tom's 400 rears will affect my clearance.

Thanks for your assistance gang!

 

[EFI-1]

Oh and I am, of course, interested in opinions on better set-ups than what I've come up with guys. Mahalo!

 

[plumcrazy]

rtttttted i believe runs the roe brakes. ask him.

 

[EFI-1]

Thanks Plum...Hope Ted chimes in.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Are the rotors two-piece? Are you going to be tracking it?

 

[99 R/T 10]

Look at Motoul brake fluid for the best performance. Hawk Brake pads or EBC Reds for the brake pads. I have Toms 40MM brakes, love them.

 

[MTGTS]

Is this gonna be for street or track?

 

[Leslie]

Hey Dave! Sounds like you are looking to upgrade your '97 brakes huh?

I went to Ted for advice, (RTTTed), like the others mention above, he knows a LOT about them. He recommened Roe Racing (Sean), here's what I went with on my 2001, decided I wanted to do it a step at a time as $ allowed:

GenIII calipers up front
kept the stock rear calipers
lighter weight 1 piece rotors (slotted/dimpled) all around (14" front/13" rear), he also will take a stock rotor and slot it for you
ss lines
Motul 600 fluid
Brakeman 3 pads
(I track my car)

BIG improvement right away...and if I was looking for a really good STREET setup, I would have stopped there. I still had stock wheels and had good braking, but really hadn't changed weight mass at the wheel to any big degree.

BUT....as I got used to the Viper on the track this past year and wanted more brake, I went with Stoptech's 6 piston front/4 piston rear when I saw JonB offer them at a killer deal. I went with VR1 wheels and the 2 piece rotors, once I did that I REALLY saw the biggest change in rotationg mass weight.


Soooo with that said, sounds like you are looking for a good STREET setup, I would recommend Sean's kit, you can always upgrade the rear's later when you want and reduce even MORE rotating mass weight with a stoptech 2 piece aero rotor.

You mentioned new wheels...? I would make sure what you decide to do that your brakes clear, in other words...know where you want to end up then go from there.


FYI.... I have also found you don't want to put the same braking in the REAR, at least in a high speed/track situation.

 

[Roffle Waffle]

i have no idea why u'd wanna keep the stock rear calipers. they're the weakest link

 

[AZTVR]

GenIII calipers up front
kept the stock rear calipers
lighter weight 1 piece rotors (slotted/dimpled) all around (14" front/13" rear), he also will take a stock rotor and slot it for you
ss lines
Motul 600 fluid
Brakeman 3 pads
(I track my car)

Leslie, was that a good, balanced set-up without any need for proportioning valve?

I am thinking of going one step up, like that one.

 

[Leslie]

Leslie, was that a good, balanced set-up without any need for proportioning valve?

I am thinking of going one step up, like that one.

Yeh, my back brakes never locked up, but then again I kept the stock rear calipers so I hadn't put too much brake on the back.

If it were me I would at least want to put the front stock calipers on the rear and talk to one of the vendors like Sean or JonB about proportioning valve.

 

[EFI-1]

Good input gang. I am indeed looking for a street set-up since we don't really have a track in Honolulu any more. I'm hopeful we'll build another one, but I'm not going to hold my breath for it. Over the years of building cars, I have learned to build specific to my interest for the car or I'll end up with something that's not all that fun to both drive and maintain. I'll keep this one purpose minded.

Chuck - These are the 2pc rotors I was contemplating: Link

Leslie - Awesome post. I am looking real hard at the whole front kit. Tom's posts indicated that with that set-up, the stock rear calipers were more appropriately sized. If I do go that route, I could upgrade to S/S lines out back and 2pc rotors.

99 RT/10 - That's what I gathered from searching the forums. Thank you.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Chuck - These are the 2pc rotors I was contemplating: Link

Good choice.

 

[RTTTTed]

Just got home from Car show. 2000 Viper ACR FIRST place and the 2010 Black vette Z06 only made second place!

If wanted a good street upgrade I bought 14" Roe slotted lightweight rotor/Brembo front rotor kit. Adapters and SS lines were included. I started with EBC Greens, went to HP Driving course with JonB and ordered EBC Reds before I left Portland. Reds are the pads that after 1 touch the wheels are dirty. Wipe and the wheels are scratched.

Leslie and my 2001 GTS have anitlock/ABS and the 2001 and 2002 rear calipers are 44mm pistons. Not interchangable with earlier brakes. The advantage of Toms' rear caliper upgrade is that changing the claipers will instanly BALANCE the car braking system. My 2001 GTS & 98 GTS had slotted/drilled lightweight rotors all around when I bought them. The 98 had Tom's rear calipers. With the 2001 GTS I wanted more and Sean Roe had a screaming deal on some 14" lightweight front brakes so I bought a set (can't leave well enough alone?). I did notice a big difference and when I broke-in/tempered the new Ceramic pads (all 4 corners) according to the Stop-tech procedure all 4 rotors were bright Blue after the 45 minute cool down so I presume that all the brakes are BALANCED and the car stops amazing.

I bought a 2000 ACR and for a 802rwhp car to have stock brakes wasn't too impressive to me. Following Charley Reid in the rain, locking up the fronts, tires smoking and the rear tires just rolling along in the rain caused me to upgrade these brakes. Keeping in mind that I wish to resell this car so investment money was limited ... I ordered EBC REDs from JonB because every mile needed the wheels cleaned. When the EBCs arrived (discount priced) I installed lighweight drilled/slotted front 13" rotors and the new pads. Sean Roe's front BB kit called for removing the rear proportioning valve spring from the 92-2000 cars when upgrading the fronts, so I emailed Sean and asked if I would be OK if I removed the rear proportining spring with just the slotted/drilled front 13" rotors.

Sean Roe said, "Youo'll just have to try it." I called Larry Macedo of M2 motorsports and he said the same, "Try it and test it." These guys are my "expert technical assistance" if I need advice from someone who has done various modifications more than I have and I trust them. So ... I broke in the pads on the 200 mile trip to Williams Lake Car Show yesterday. All 4 rotors turned Blue (tempered) and when I did some testing the front brakes locked up first. I don't advise removing the proportioning spring unless you are qualified to test your brakes. You never never want the rear brakes to lock up before the fronts. That is why brake balance is important. All cars are different.

Personally I'd recommend Tom's rear caliper upgrade and a 14" front brake upgrade with lightweight slotted rotors all around. EBC REDs work for me but probably any Ceramic pads will stop your car as well without dirtying your wheels every time you move your car.

With Sean's lightweight rotors they come aluminium colored and shiny. The Brembo (gen 3) calipers come clear coated or powdercoated Red. My GTS is Sapphire (like Leslie's) and I used Duplicolor Caliper paint to color the rotor 'hats' and Calipers medium Blue to match my car.

Hope my experience helps you decide what to do with your ride. I commend you for upgrading your brakes. Safety first!

Ted

 

[Jance GTS]

Hey Ted it's me again

I know you've probably answered this for me before, should I get a 13" or 14" rear rotor for my Gen 3 Caliper? I have everything written down that I need. I plan to have the center hat piece powder coated on my 2 piece rotors but I don't want to have the wrong ones coated.

Thanks and congrats on the win at the show!

 

[RTTTTed]

I think that JonB has some 13" brackets (from BB Dave's co.) that reused the front rotors and front 13" Brembo calipers.

The Gen 3 Calipers are designed for the 14" and can't be switched. The pads are completely different shaped and sized. Gen 3 calipers only fit 14" rotors.
Ted

 

[Jance GTS]

I think that JonB has some 13" brackets (from BB Dave's co.) that reused the front rotors and front 13" Brembo calipers.

The Gen 3 Calipers are designed for the 14" and can't be switched. The pads are completely different shaped and sized. Gen 3 calipers only fit 14" rotors.
Ted

Thank you sir! Sounds like 14" all the way around then! Don't I need to get 2 sets of front 14" rotors? Because the back is different like you stated before? I read somewhere that some cutting might be involved to get the 14" to fit? I can't remember... Sorry!

 

[RTTTTed]

I decided that the massive 14" brakes weren't needed on the rear as unless racing I don't think there is any improvment in stopping distance with the massive brakes on rear. For under 60 mph I think that ABS or Tom's caliper upgrade is equal to the Gen 3 brakes. Tom stated in several threads that even with stock Gen 1 and 2 brakes his caliper upgrade would stop at 1G which is within a few percentage of Gen 3 brakes. Slotted/drilled/lightweight rotors and Tom's calipers should be about equal. For 100mph+ and rad racing is when the massive brakes make a difference because the larger brakes dissapate the heat better.

JonB sells Dave's BB kits and the brackets required to remount the stock caliper for use as a parking brake and the old bracker need to be cut off of the spindle I believe. I havn't done it and that's why I recommend speaking to Jon about what is required to changeover.

Ted

 

[EFI-1]

Ted - Great, informative posts. I was hoping you'd jump in. I am now leaning towards the Roe front kit, but will have to speak with them about how it will affect future wheel choices - namely, if there is a variation in backspace and if so, what will it be?

The F/R lightweight rotors are a must IMO as well as the S/S lines and better [read: new] fluid since I haven't flushed yet. Thank you for your posts. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get closer to finalizing and then installing the new brakes.

 

[RTTTTed]

With the Roe 14" LIGHTWEIGHT rotors and 14" kit 18" wheels fit OK without spacers.

When Leslie went with the stock rotors (at first) - she had to use spacers with her stock '01 18" wheels.

My VR1s fit perfect and although I didn't drive anywhere I did test fit the stock wheels on my lightwieght 14" brake kit and they worked great on the jackstands as well.

Ted

 

[EFI-1]

I'm planning on 19/20 monoblocks with concave centersections. The front is really of less consequence but I will still need to be able to tell the company what the backspacing/offset needs to be. I can't see going more than Tom's 40mm out back so it shouldn't be an issue. I want to get as much concavity as possible and 13" wheels should give me a good amount of it.

So how does this sound?

Roe front BBK
13" Roe LW rear rotors
Tom's 40mm calipers
S/S Lines
Motul fluid
POSSIBLE ADD: Brake fluid recirc set-up for front calipers

 

[RTTTTed]

Fine,

But if you are going with "deep dish" (?) type wheels then I'd suggest adding the canards for better aerodynamics becuase of the drastic "dents" in the wheels. The canards 'jumble' the airflow along side the car and if your wheels have a dish this 'jumbled air' would help smooth the airflow. Canards are the small "winglets" at the front corners of the Gen 4 ACR and, I think, the GTSR.

You'll notice that racing wheels don't have much 'dish' because it adds aero resistance. Like my VR1s the wheels actually widen the track and move the tires outboard to be even with the outside of the body, increasing the width of the track/stance and smoothing side airflow by pushing the wheel/tires farther out of the wheelwells. Most of the hp lighweight wheels also have larger openings to move the air past the brakes for cooling.

Ted

 

[EFI-1]

Ted, don't know if you saw the wheels for my Z06, but I am thinking the design will be similar. They should end up being flush with the fenders edge. Here's a pic...

Rear:

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Front & Rear:

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[REDBLACK]

StopTech BBK.

 

[EFI-1]

StopTech BBK.

How much of a weight reduction does the ST BBK offer? The point of my endeavor is two fold - improving braking performance, and minimizing or even reducing overall weight (particularly unsprung weight).

 

[Leslie]

Like my VR1s the wheels actually widen the track and move the tires outboard to be even with the outside of the body, increasing the width of the track/stance and smoothing side airflow by pushing the wheel/tires farther out of the wheelwells. Most of the hp lighweight wheels also have larger openings to move the air past the brakes for cooling.

Ted

this is what Ted's referring to...I bought some used VR1's from a guy on here, I like the wider stance AND the weight savings...between rotors and wheels I removed close to 12lbs of rotating mass at EACH wheel.

 

[Olddudesrule]

I'm running Stoptech 4 piston front and rear, w/ Stoptech two piece hats on all four corners. Not sure what the weight savings was over stock, but you can't beat the stopping power. I was running ATE Superblue, but when I changed over to Stoptech Street Performance pads, I also changed to Valvoline DOT 4 syn, which is fine for spirited street driving. Still use the ATE in my clutch, as it runs physically closer to the headers (heat, wicked heat!)

If your looking for a great street pad, with low dust and no noise, the StopTech Street Preformance are awesome. JonB gave me a great price on them too.

 

[EFI-1]

Leslie - Hmmm very aggressive offset for those VR1's. I'm definitely digging the profile. A 12lb reduction is very impressive. Would you say that was primarily from the rotors or wheels?

ODR - Good looking out on the pads. I am looking for those qualities in the pads. I guess I'll bring it up next time Jon & I get on the hook. Mahalo!

 

[Russ M]

VR1-R's

are
11x18 Front 18lb's each
13x18 Rear 19lb's each

Normal VR1's are a bit heavier like 1lb each or something like that.

Factory wheels are 32 and 34 maybe even a bit more. ACR wheels are 28 and 29, this just gives you an example of how much rotating mass you can save if you put your mind to it.

 

[EFI-1]

VR1-R's

are
11x18 Front 18lb's each
13x18 Rear 19lb's each

Normal VR1's are a bit heavier like 1lb each or something like that.

Factory wheels are 32 and 34 maybe even a bit more. ACR wheels are 28 and 29, this just gives you an example of how much rotating mass you can save if you put your mind to it.

Excellent & valuable info Russ. Thank you very much.

Edit: Can't find the VR1's or VR1R's on the Forgeline site. The ZX3R's do look good as well. I'll call them about the weight.