Car&Driver:ZR1 beats the Viper...again

[PDCjonny]

Just to set things in perspective for this thread.
Stingray23 and Hollywood have made 41/92 posts for a total of 45% of total posts on this thread.
Throw in the next three individuals with the highest posts....60%
So five people have posted 60% all all the posts on this thread.
Go figure.

It's an Internet car forum where people post opinions, and its winter.
If you can't handle that, probably best you go back to the quilting bee forums.

 

[GONABITE]

I too am amazed at all the people that want to put their heads in the sand and take this like a personal hit and ignore that fact that Ralph and the SRT group did not complete the mission.

Proven twice that this car is sub par to an outgoing model corvette. Truly not acceptable.

So why close threads and get upset???

For the money that this car is going to cost now it should man handle an old corvette!!

All I can say is SRT might want to consider a TRUE FORGED motor next year and discontinue this POWDER FORGED stuff and come up with a better cam and make some more power.

Truly disappointing and if it comes down to the fact that "Mr. Ferrari" wont let the Viper have more power than its Italian cousin then this is going to be a long run of disappointments and a true conflict of interest that only hurts the Viper community.

I guess Ill keep my 900 HP modified 9 sec ZR1 until some improvements are made to this car. Although I do like the look of the Viper compared to my car I cant be behind the 8 ball right out of the gate with a new more expensive car.

 

[-nighthawk-]

Truly disappointing and if it comes down to the fact that "Mr. Ferrari" wont let the Viper have more power than its Italian cousin then this is going to be a long run of disappointments and a true conflict of interest that only hurts the Viper community.

This is what I think the issue is. The SRT guys could have easily got 700HP out of the engine I believe, Ralph even mentioned that they couldn't increase the power because of the F12. They also need a supercharged variant to keep up with the high HP competition.

 

[Nine Ball]

Some of you guys cry too much. $110K isn't "expensive" for what you are getting. You can also still park a pristine Gen ONE Viper right next to a ZR1 and make the Corvette become invisible.

 

[swexlin]

Tell you what. If one of you guys buys a new Viper, and turns out you don't like it. Give it to me! I'll take it off your hands!!

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

This is what I think the issue is. The SRT guys could have easily got 700HP out of the engine I believe, Ralph even mentioned that they couldn't increase the power because of the F12. They also need a supercharged variant to keep up with the high HP competition.

Ralph did make such a statement at the intro. You can go back and see the tape. Perhaps now that the F150 is coming out, Fiat will lift the ceiling? GM has done something interesting that may apply. At the 2011 Corvette bash, the Vett Program Manager told the audience that GM did not consider the Camaro as competition to the Corvette and the Camaro would not be limited to performance or horse power less than the Corvette. Camaro's competition was the Mustang and any appropriate Chrysler product. Watch the 2013 GM product offerings to see what I mean. Performance restricted by internal politics typically backfires as the market can not be controlled by one company. Even Porsche is now taking some of the internally imposed restrictions on performance off the Boxter line.

As to the passion on this topic, the home team has taken one in the chops on performance and the fans are unhappy!

 

[46hemi]

Maybe they should have brought this car to market as something other than a Viper and all would be well in the world. Its a worthy competitor among supercars.

There is no denying that this car (whether it be due to overall changes in the automotive landscape) does not fit entirely into the DNA of the Viper and that seems to be the sticking point for most. I can say for me the reason I bought my Viper products was that when they were made they were the undisputed performance kings within their reasonable competition group. If I actually race them or not is irrelevant. It was what the Viper program was built on and it has certainly been a big part of the allure of the Viper.

Honestly if the Viper would have won by a half a second I think there would still be many people who would be disappointed (myself included), but I also know that the Viper is not a viable business model in its past form catering to its limited (actual paying) fan base. It is really hard to evolve, stay relevant, stay true to your roots and satisfy all fans. The new Viper is kind of like seeing Clint Eastwood in Bridges of Madison County - He did a great job but I would rather remember him as Dirty Harry.

Viper Enthusiast who owns a 2001 ACR & a 2006 Ram SRT RC

 

[Mopar488]

Does anyone know who the driver was at C&D, unless I missed it somewhere? Not one to make excuses, but it would have been interesting to see the run w/ MPSC and the ACR suspension. If I remember correctly, the track pack has the stoptech brakes and hats, corsa tires, lighter wheels, but no ACR shocks, correct?

 

[ViperSmith]

So in summation, people that will never reach these lap times are upset because someone else reached didnt reach the lap times. It loses in MT test to Pobsts ACR time by .5 seconds, so I guess the ACR is a slow piece of **** too, since it lost by 1.5 seconds to Randy's ZR1 time

Everyone is complaining the Viper "isn't a real Viper" but CD and MT have stated it is still raw and they are still scared to push it to the limits.

Christ, you all should just buy Ariel Atoms and stop whining. There is your engine slapped to a frame.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

This has the word BIAS all over it.

Viper+
"As exotic as a Texas Democrat,refined and improved in every respect, sounds like an air raid during the Great War"
Viper-
"Italian torture devices for seats, sometimes boomy exhaust, brake fade, less-accessible performance then the Vette's"
="America's Lamborghini remains a thrilling, intimidating challenge"

 

[Mopar488]

Ralph did make such a statement at the intro. You can go back and see the tape. Perhaps now that the F150 is coming out, Fiat will lift the ceiling? GM has done something interesting that may apply. At the 2011 Corvette bash, the Vett Program Manager told the audience that GM did not consider the Camaro as competition to the Corvette and the Camaro would not be limited to performance or horse power less than the Corvette. Camaro's competition was the Mustang and any appropriate Chrysler product. Watch the 2013 GM product offerings to see what I mean. Performance restricted by internal politics typically backfires as the market can not be controlled by one company. Even Porsche is now taking some of the internally imposed restrictions on performance off the Boxter line.


As to the passion on this topic, the home has taken one in the chops on performance and the fans are unhappy!

I recall John Fernandez, former head of SRT saying that they needed to have 20-25% more horsepower or nobody would pay attention.

 

[Ray W]

They make 800 hp V-10 drag pack cars. Just hand over the cam,headers and pcm. We can figure out the rest.

Also has anyone considered the lightweight flywheel. The lighter flywheel does not carry the additional rotating force to keep the rpms up between shifts. So maybe the rpms drop down to 3500 instead of 4000. Though the lighter one spools up faster it has to make up a 500 rpm shortfall that might not place it in the best part of the powerband.

 

[phavyarden]

Again, there's no excuses. SRT need to work right now for an improvment for the car. The Viper should beat the ZR1 at least at something, but it's not,
at every point and at bigger price tag.
I readed some guys talking about Viper limitations by Fiat. I hope they're wrong. But until now, it seems they're correct.
I'm hoping for a light when the ACR come out.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

Really? We are going to do this again in another thread? One thread closes due to 25 pages of crap and we are starting again here? Really? Hasn't everything been said?

Disappointed in the constant bashing most of you are posting. I am just thankful there even is a new Viper.

My sentiments exactly, as I have already said before.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Good grief this is disappointing. Two reviews in a row with a 2 sec beatdown at the hands of the ZR1. Congrats SRT you are the best marketing department Chevy has ever had. A bit harsh but Im very disappointed in the new cars performance. I just dont see how anyone can defend SRT after these confirmed results.

Most of the Viper faithful will buy the new Viper thats a given. But how do you expect to get the conquest buyers with perpetual losses in the most important Viper performance department? I for one dont want to see the SRT tested against the newer GTR/Z06 or for that matter any top shelf supercar until its sorted. No way this is what Ralph and SRT intended. The car is just not ready for prime time. Regardless of the reasons and excuses this is not acceptable imho. Fiat or SRT give the car what it needs or you will be forced to discontinue it. If dominant ACR's sat on lots what do you think will happen to a "whipping boy" Viper? The new cars are getting faster. If the Viper cant beat or even hope to tie an older ZR1 on a circuit track then its dead in the water imho. The Viper has always been either the baddest car in the straight or turns or both or right there with the fastest.

The old non ACR Gen 3 was consistently about .5 on a track behind its direct competitor the Z06 according to mags. The Gen IV non ACR was about even to tenth or two faster than the Z06 on track. This new Viper is 2 secs behind its direct competitor. The car needs to put the numbers down in keeping with its past heritage and image for it to survive and be taken seriously. It sounds like its still much rawer than the Porsche crowd SRT is hoping to woo. Why would they leave the comfort of a Porsche, Aston etc to be mediocre performance-wise if they are non Viper type of person? Most of you are not worried about this but SRT is aiming this car towards that part of the industry. So did they fail in the comfort department too? Two strait reviews by mags that cater to more refined spectrum of the automotive industry has labeled the interior harsh and uncomfortable. MT also said the ZR1 is more comfortable than the Gen V. So what part of these reviews favors SRT new offering? A person reading these reviews who may have been considering a new Viper would have a hard time understanding SRT's approach and execution with this new Viper as its slower and less comfortable than its old rival.

 

[Vital Velocity]

The biggest problem I see for the majority of people that will actually race the car is the 0-150. If the viper won the 0-60, and the quarter mile but loses to 150 by a full second ( haven't looked back to page 1 to verify ), the viper got a better hole shot but the vette ran it down HARD! The launch shows skill of the driver, roll races really show more of the capability of the car itself(yes drive skill is still a factor, just not as much)


While yes people should be racing them at the track etc etc the reality is a lot of the racing (at least around here) is on the street, from a roll. Needless to say it won't be pretty for the Viper on a roll race. the results so far have been a pretty big let down.

 

[DMan]

"Congrats SRT you are the best marketing department Chevy has ever had."

Well, I have to agree with this 100%. With the Viper image, posting 2 reviews spanking it, Chevy couldn't buy better press. We all know the ZR1 has great perf, but this is some awesome marketing material. Like us claiming the now 3 yr old ACR outerfoms new cars ... Chevy now lays claim to their outgoing old style vette spanking the latest & greatest Viper. Clear message on marketing.

Who ever decided to put the pre-produciton cars up against the ZR1 in these tests from SRT, without 100% knowing they were ready for a great a showing, should have their head handed to them. Unless of course this truly is the best the Viper has to offer.

Bottomline for me, it's a shame the reputation hit the Viper is taking right now, before it even sees production cars on the street, and we know how these things last with magazine racers. The brake comments bum me out, being a track hound myself, I'd never dream I'd have to worry about brake fade on this car. The seats review also bothers me. I've done as much as 10 hrs in one day in my gen4 and felt fine, with the damning of the comfort of the new seats, that has me a little worried also. I generally don't give mush credit to mags at all, but some of the details they're speaking to do concern me as a buyer.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

You can think whatever the hell you want. Just like I can post whatever the hell I want. Free country. Maybe you should go see the DOC. He's having trouble with imaginary trolls too.

Oh you are a troll no matter what you say. You aren't trying to be constructive in any sort of way. I don't think the thread should be closed just because it is tking a negative twist though. But make no mistake, you are definitely here trolling. BTW, all one has to do is go look on CF and see what you are saying about the Gen V to verify that you are indeed trolling.

As for the Gen V, well what people never talk about are the times that the Gen IV coupe had on LS. This Gen V did not have aero aids, which obviously have a big impact on the car. Now if SRT will just offer these items as items you can preorder on your car as an option, then they can be added and thus tested as stock OEM. As for the brakes, well we never heard of problems with the brakes on the ACR. But then again, maybe the brakes weren't being used as hard due to the Aero parts.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Again, there's no excuses. SRT need to work right now for an improvment for the car. The Viper should beat the ZR1 at least at something, but it's not,
at every point and at bigger price tag.
I readed some guys talking about Viper limitations by Fiat. I hope they're wrong. But until now, it seems they're correct.
I'm hoping for a light when the ACR come out.

This is very well said IMO too especially since the GTS is a lot more money than the ZR1. Even though I am NOT a Vette guy, I dont turn a blind eye as many are doing here to the results so far. With all the hype in the last year and dreams of a specific outcome, it comes up short, at least so far. Im sure sales will be off some unfortunately but Im keeping my fingers crossed for improvements such as an ACR version etc.

 

[MTGTS]

The brake fade reviews have me thinking that SRT chose the wrong pad or one that's not aggressive enough for track use. Most cars don't come with track ready pads. I don't think they are overheating the rotors or fluid but the pad. It's an easy fix. They also drove the car at the track in the soft suspension setting because they were to scared to drive in the stiff setting even though SRT told them to. With the right pads and tires the Gen 5 is easily as fast as a ZR1 and these are mods that almost all of us do anyways. Not a big deal.

 

[NO HEMI]

What exactly did you guys expect. The Viper weighs more and has less power. When I first pointed this out, I was told, yes but, the Vette has a supercharger and the Viper is NA. I always figured the Viper needs to be a statement car and should come out with 700 HP and blow everything else away and really kick butt like it did when it first came out, when nothing else was close.

Unfortunately with these past 2 articles, the Viper definitely has made a statement. Just not sure it was the statement that they were looking for.

I'm with Him^^^^, still a Viper is a Viper......the rest are just cars.....

 

[kverges]

It seems clear that in the hands of a professional with no real Viper experience and several C&D editors, that The Gen V, as tested, could not be driven as quickly as the ZR1, as tested, on the track. From a marketing perspective, that is definitely not very good. I suspect that the Viper has the potential to overcome that with different tires and some suspension changes.

For those who just want power, I don't think that is the fix. Power is nothing without handling and honestly, if all you want is straight line performance, I think a better option is a solid axle car - more durable, and easier to make go straight under acceleration. The Viper is a SPORTS CAR and trust me, power is not the panacea. Weight (this car outweighs the ZR1) and suspension design and setup are key and I bet the latter can be adjusted some to get the Viper on par with the ZR1.

At the end of the day, though, the subjectives of style, feel, sound and so on are going to be very important in both cars. I have to give the nod to the Viper, and I am a Viper and Corvette owner. I have always hated that window in the ZR1 hood and the ZR1 also has too many tacked-on bits to look really integrated like the Viper.

 

[SnakeBitten]

I think most want the power and handling where this Gen V is lacking compared to another "sportscar" which happens to be its main and older rival.

There is no way to spin the results so far in favor of SRT or the Viper. I never thought I'd see the day excuses would be made for a Viper losing by 2 secs on a roadcourse and in the straights to an older Vette stock to stock. Most of us wouldn't care if it lost the 0-oblivion mph straight line test if it beat the ZR1 on the track. The track is the Vipers bread and butter. Most of the Viper faithful know this car is meant for the track but just so happens to be nasty in the straights too. At least in the past. Now its not competitive on the track or the straights to its main rival. BTW the Viper only weighs 13lbs more than the ZR1 while making similar power. I highly doubt that 13lb difference is responsible for the 2 sec loss on the road course or the 1 sec loss in 0-150mph.

Its nice to spin that its a slight bit slower than the old 08 ACR time on Laguna by Pobst. But unfortunately that 2 sec beatdown by the ZR1 is indelibly inked in 2 magazines now and in the psyche of millions of readers and potential buyers now. There is no getting around the new Vipers shortcomings folks even for me after these two articles. If I were SRT and Ralph Id pull anymore planned mag tests.

What kills me is how quickly the mags went from loving the new seats to hating it. More seat time and more comprehensive tests with these last two reviews I guess. I dont remember ever hearing bad reviews on Ferrari's versions of these seats. Did they remove even more padding for Viper duty?

 

[tbi]

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/viper-zr1-lp640-sl65-heads-up


heres the gen4 viper vs zr1 results from car and driver.

Honestly picking up a 60k gen4 seems like an amazeing deal right now

 

[Dom426h]

The Viper should beat the ZR1 at least at something, but it's not,
at every point and at bigger price tag.

In THIS comparison the Viper Won in the 0-60, 0-100, & 1/4.
I'll also add that it won in fuel mileage, and looks/styling. lol

Did you even read the article / look at the numbers, or did you simply put all of your faith in the TROLL's title of the thread ?



ridiculous...

 

[Bobpantax]

Take a 2010 ACR Viper. Add 100 HP. Tune the suspension a bit. It will not have a top speed equal to the new Gen V but it would dominate a Gen V on a road course based on what we have seen to date. I also think it would probably dominate the Gen V on the strip. So for someone who does not need the creature comforts and is not gaga about the new design, do the $ math. Footnote. At least 65 HP can be added to the ACR by adding headers, cat back and Mopar controller.

But, the new car is a beautiful piece and hopefully SRT and MOPAR will step up to the challenge. The MOPAR engine goodies shown at VOI are not available yet and may or may not be enough to get the car to the power level it needs to truely dominate like it did in "the good old days". As for people using or not using the power, that is not the issue. The issue is whther the Viper can regain its proper identity and reputation after these two articles. Maybe it got a bit too much James Bondish and needs some Dirty Harry back. Remember the line: "I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five'? Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But being that this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well do ya, punk?

This is sort of the way I thought about my Gen II's performance and, after modding my Gen III, the way I also think about it. Am I wrong? I thought that this is what the original Viper concept was about.

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

One thing I've been wondering is why are magazines testing the heavier GTS? The SRT is cheaper and lighter. Do the GTS two mode dampers add performance? Is anything gained performance wise when "upgrading" to the GTS? Makes the car look bad on paper and in the ZR1 comparison IMO. The extra weight no doubt hurts performance to some degree. Is this an SRT decision to appeal to the new target audience?

This all said the MR suspension on the ZR1 is tough to beat on the track and street for performance, confidence and comfort no matter the competition. Don't forget PTM. All in all the ZR1 has lots of electronic technology going for it and the Viper is new to that game. Haven't looked at the torque / power curves but the supercharged LS9 most likely offers more area under the curve regardless of peak power. In summary the ZR1 is a very worthy competitor and to expect the Viper to blow it out of the water is perhaps unreasonable. To cancel an order on the Viper for this reason is a bit extreme in my opinion. The cars have such equal performance that selecting one over the other is a matter of personal preference.

 

[VCA Forum Staff]

Thread has been edited to remove personal attacks. Stay on topic and avoid comments regarding your opinion of the other guy, including name calling.

 

[V10TT]

With the new 3.55 gears the viper pulls 4th gear to 138 mph, then it shifts to 5th gear with a .77 ratio. IT FALLS ON ITS FACE.
That is why the 0-150 is slower than the Gen IVs. The older vipers can pull 4th to 160+.

The ZR1 has better 5 th gear ratio and less drop in RPMs from 4th to 5th. after 135 mph is coming on ******* the viper.

 

[NO HEMI]

From what i 've read(and it's been a lot here) weight/hp is almost equal(in paper, gm is usually underrrated) and results are far from satisfying, i know SRT can do better, why not "adjust" vipers before they hand them to the dealerships, and do the necessary "tweaks"(eg. tires, hp, susp adjust, etc) for it to be what we all expected it was going to be, then put it in the showrooms, just like ford did when the "cobras" weren't pushing the "advertised 320hp".