carbon fiber
- Thread starter 4207henri
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carguy07
Viper Owner
Think fiberglass, but the glass mat is black. I would think it costs more than generic chrome plating. Upscale plating might be more though
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
Real carbon fibre is not a covering/liquid type product. As carguy07 says, it is just like fibreglass. it is a sheet of carbon woven material that is put into a mould, some is pre pregnated with resin and put on an oven, some as I do it is mixed with liquid resin.
I have produced moulds of nearly all panels inside and out of both RT/10 and GTS and am now producing carbon fibre panels. Some of the panels are only one layer thick and are stuck ontop off existing panels, as the door closure panel. Some like the side sills or windscreen sorround are replacement panels
Colin
www.miniviper.com
I have produced moulds of nearly all panels inside and out of both RT/10 and GTS and am now producing carbon fibre panels. Some of the panels are only one layer thick and are stuck ontop off existing panels, as the door closure panel. Some like the side sills or windscreen sorround are replacement panels
Colin
www.miniviper.com
Topawam
Viper Owner
Very Nice, 
Love the look of carbon fiber
Do you think to do a mold for the dash?
Love the look of carbon fiberDo you think to do a mold for the dash?
GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
I'm not at all intrested in the "look".The interest for me is strength,and reduced weight.I would paint to match original.Can you post weight savings/price for fenders,hood etc? GTS Bruce
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
I havn't made a carbon fibre bonnet yet. I plan to in the near future so will be able to give accurate weights and prices. I think you could save around 30/40lbs on the bonnet, still using a double skin with OEM hinge mountings. If you had a single skin race type you could save even more. The only two other panels that I feel you could make a big weight saving is the doors and roof, the rear fenders, bumper, sills are already quite light and would only save small amounts. Hopefully this year sometime I will have manufactured all panels in C/F for my car.
Colin
Colin
cgmaster
Viper Owner
How dificult is it to work with carbon fibre. I have some experience with fiberglass but I thought real carbon fibre had to be cured in an autoclave and took alot of specialized tools to work with it.
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
There are two methods of making carbon, one is with an autoclave as you mentioned, But you can also hand lay it as you do with fibreglass
Colin
www.miniviper.com
Colin
www.miniviper.com
Dohhunter
Enthusiast
Colin, those are some quality pieces!
Are you going to be selling them online? or per a dealer (i.e. partsrack?)
Are you going to be selling them online? or per a dealer (i.e. partsrack?)
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
Thanks for the compliment, I am going to be selling them online through my website, once I get round to adding all the information.
Please E mail me if you have any specific requirements
Colin
www.miniviper.com
Please E mail me if you have any specific requirements
Colin
www.miniviper.com
MadMaxx
Enthusiast
Like it's been said, carbon is a cloth. There are many varieties of carbon based on the application needed. Different thicknesses and weaves are available depending on what you need. Carbon is similar to any other composite, as it gets it's strength from the bonding of fiber and resin (under pressure for optimum).
Carbon really shines vs. fiberglass in that it can achieve excellent strength characteristics when it is combined with the correct ratio of resin, and held under pressure to force the bonding. For non structural/visual parts, hand layup is acceptable. This involved layering each piece of cloth and applying the resin by hand (resin total based on weight of cloth). This is not ideal, because there will be a higher saturation of resin on the cloth, which will weaken the composite piece. Now, there are some variations on this, one is called vacuum bagging. Instead of trying to force the carbon cloth to conform to the curves and changes of the mold (almost impossible for any semi-complex part), the composite is wetted with resin in the mold, and then placed in a special bag. The part is then held under vacuum, which forces the cloth to conform to the shapes of the molds evenly. This doesn't address the issue of resin ratio though. A bleeder layer is used to soak up excess resin, but it's still not as good as other methods.
Prepreg is the most commonly used method in structural, high performance applications. This is what F1 teams use in the construction of their tubs, and the body of the McLaren F1 to name a few. Instead of the fabirc (dry) and the resin (wet) being combined at the time of product creation, the resin is "impregnated" into the cloth when the cloth is made. This creates the optimum ratio of cloth to resin, as the application of resin can be strictly monitored. The problem is that the resin isn't a liquid, more like a powdered plastic of sorts that has been infused with the cloth. In order for it to actually set, it must be held under pressure and heat. That's where the autoclaves come in (which are pressurized ovens). They hold the part (which is under vacuum in the bag, similar to the above) under pressure in the oven, which causes the resin to actually "melt and fuse" in a way, it releases the resin and causes it to set. The result is a part that is both light weight and very strong, depending on the number of layers and type. The only drawback is autoclaving parts is very expensive. The prepreg is also very expensive, and has a shelf life to it.
A new method has been gaining popularity. It's called resin infusion. This is what I did to all my parts. It's a hybrid method of vacuum bagging. Instead of laying a wet piece of cloth in the mold and holding under vac, only the dry carbon is held under vacuum. Once under vacuum, a feed line of resin is inserted into the bag and the resin is pulled from the reservoir into the mold. The cool thing is that only the amount of resin needed to fill the void and wet the cloth is used under vacuum. What that means is that you get a part that is damn near the weight and strength of prepreg without the high overhead. For 90% of the applications that a street-going car would ever see, prepreg would be overkill. Body components are not stress members, and do not carry much load. So, spending a fortune for prepreg vs. resin infusion doesn't make sense.
I can get into more specifics of anyone is interested
James
Carbon really shines vs. fiberglass in that it can achieve excellent strength characteristics when it is combined with the correct ratio of resin, and held under pressure to force the bonding. For non structural/visual parts, hand layup is acceptable. This involved layering each piece of cloth and applying the resin by hand (resin total based on weight of cloth). This is not ideal, because there will be a higher saturation of resin on the cloth, which will weaken the composite piece. Now, there are some variations on this, one is called vacuum bagging. Instead of trying to force the carbon cloth to conform to the curves and changes of the mold (almost impossible for any semi-complex part), the composite is wetted with resin in the mold, and then placed in a special bag. The part is then held under vacuum, which forces the cloth to conform to the shapes of the molds evenly. This doesn't address the issue of resin ratio though. A bleeder layer is used to soak up excess resin, but it's still not as good as other methods.
Prepreg is the most commonly used method in structural, high performance applications. This is what F1 teams use in the construction of their tubs, and the body of the McLaren F1 to name a few. Instead of the fabirc (dry) and the resin (wet) being combined at the time of product creation, the resin is "impregnated" into the cloth when the cloth is made. This creates the optimum ratio of cloth to resin, as the application of resin can be strictly monitored. The problem is that the resin isn't a liquid, more like a powdered plastic of sorts that has been infused with the cloth. In order for it to actually set, it must be held under pressure and heat. That's where the autoclaves come in (which are pressurized ovens). They hold the part (which is under vacuum in the bag, similar to the above) under pressure in the oven, which causes the resin to actually "melt and fuse" in a way, it releases the resin and causes it to set. The result is a part that is both light weight and very strong, depending on the number of layers and type. The only drawback is autoclaving parts is very expensive. The prepreg is also very expensive, and has a shelf life to it.
A new method has been gaining popularity. It's called resin infusion. This is what I did to all my parts. It's a hybrid method of vacuum bagging. Instead of laying a wet piece of cloth in the mold and holding under vac, only the dry carbon is held under vacuum. Once under vacuum, a feed line of resin is inserted into the bag and the resin is pulled from the reservoir into the mold. The cool thing is that only the amount of resin needed to fill the void and wet the cloth is used under vacuum. What that means is that you get a part that is damn near the weight and strength of prepreg without the high overhead. For 90% of the applications that a street-going car would ever see, prepreg would be overkill. Body components are not stress members, and do not carry much load. So, spending a fortune for prepreg vs. resin infusion doesn't make sense.
I can get into more specifics of anyone is interested
James
SVS Turbo
Enthusiast
Carbon fiber hood "skin" will save you close to 100lbs. You can mount it on the stock hinge (only if you recduce the spring tension) or you can pin it.
$3200
Carbon fiber hood to match stock will still require a spring tension change in the stock hinge. savings are closer to 70-80lbs compared to stock. You can also add the louvers.
$5000
Carbon fiber cowl - weight savings 1 ounce
- $260Here's a picture of the quality: SVS carbon fiber
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
Well said Madmaxx, I enjoyed reading that
Colin
Colin
Matt
Enthusiast
Any plans to do a Gen1 RT/10 dash?
MadMaxx
Enthusiast
If you ever just want to talk composites, lemme know. I don't do much anymore, as I have another company in it's infancy to deal with now. But, I still make stuff from time to time for my personal cars and a few friends.
James
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
Matt, I am looking at moulding Gen 1 & 2 dash, but have to do quite a bit of work to manufacture them in carbon, watch this space!!!
Madmaxx, I may just take you up on that offer and mail you sometime soon, you seem to know your stuff
Colin
Madmaxx, I may just take you up on that offer and mail you sometime soon, you seem to know your stuff
Colin
madmaxx, that was great info.
I have just covered my inner fenders with CF but just did it for looks. The inner fenders would be great in CF and really help show off the engine.
I have also watched the autoclave method used for lamborghini in their manufacturing. that resin infusion sounds like the way to go. hand lay-up is too heavy and is really just a cosmetic look.
I have just covered my inner fenders with CF but just did it for looks. The inner fenders would be great in CF and really help show off the engine.
I have also watched the autoclave method used for lamborghini in their manufacturing. that resin infusion sounds like the way to go. hand lay-up is too heavy and is really just a cosmetic look.
MadMaxx
Enthusiast
Resin infusion produces some excellent results. I don't touch wet layups anymore, just too much of a pain to get right. I'll also let you guys in on a little secret...
Coat your mold with your relese agent, then spray on a 50/50 mix of Duratec clear coat (surfacer) and clear gelcoat. The duratec surfacer is just a thined out version of gelcoat in a way, the mixing ratios are the same as the clear gelcoat. They'll both set at the same temperature and time. It's also got the UV protectant built into it. When you mix the two, you'll get a very high luster and deep finish as the outer layer of your composite. You can also spray this through a HVLP gun vs. a gelcoat gun. I use a 2mm nozzle and every once in a while have to mix in a bit of acetone to thin it. The acetone will flash off the surface w/o leaving any trace, so it's nice.
When it's tacky, lay up your dry cloth and infuse. When it's completely cured, it will pop out of the mold and look like it's been polished already Quick pass with some buffing compound and you're done. Saves you the trouble of having to apply a clear coat after the part has cured. Cut's your time and labor waaaay down, and produces great finishes.
Also, if you guys want to attempt infusion, you'll need a pump that will do 30hg and ~20 microns. A real cheap and versitile pump is the robinair pumps used for HVAC guys. They're portable, light weight, and are farily inexpensive. They work great. I've got several larger pumps now, but overall I really like the robinair ones for overall use. I found a company liquidating them on ebay and bought 5 of them, I used them more than my larger pumps
Coat your mold with your relese agent, then spray on a 50/50 mix of Duratec clear coat (surfacer) and clear gelcoat. The duratec surfacer is just a thined out version of gelcoat in a way, the mixing ratios are the same as the clear gelcoat. They'll both set at the same temperature and time. It's also got the UV protectant built into it. When you mix the two, you'll get a very high luster and deep finish as the outer layer of your composite. You can also spray this through a HVLP gun vs. a gelcoat gun. I use a 2mm nozzle and every once in a while have to mix in a bit of acetone to thin it. The acetone will flash off the surface w/o leaving any trace, so it's nice.
When it's tacky, lay up your dry cloth and infuse. When it's completely cured, it will pop out of the mold and look like it's been polished already
Quick pass with some buffing compound and you're done. Saves you the trouble of having to apply a clear coat after the part has cured. Cut's your time and labor waaaay down, and produces great finishes. Also, if you guys want to attempt infusion, you'll need a pump that will do 30hg and ~20 microns. A real cheap and versitile pump is the robinair pumps used for HVAC guys. They're portable, light weight, and are farily inexpensive. They work great. I've got several larger pumps now, but overall I really like the robinair ones for overall use. I found a company liquidating them on ebay and bought 5 of them, I used them more than my larger pumps
SVS Turbo
Enthusiast
We also have molds of the inner fenders.
When you change the inner fenders to carbon fiber they definitely make the engine bay look very cool
GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
I am impressed!It would be nice to loose 100 lbs in the hood and a likewise amount in other body parts. GTS Bruce
Dohhunter
Enthusiast
Ya, any pics of the inner fenders? that sounds awesome.
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
How about a Gen 1 hard top that fits in the trunk. Minus the Viper Tax of course!
SVS Turbo
Enthusiast
We made the carbon fenders for a custom Viper that will be completed by this summer. The first and only set out of the molds have been air brushed for this project. I don't have any other sets that I could show a picture of.
The front inner fenders are comprised of 4 pieces. The larger pair of fenders that are the most exposed in the engine bay and the smaller pair that sits behind the headlights.
If I made a set right now they would look just like the finish on the fascia and bumper from the link above.
The carbon house we work with is on vacation and I have to wait to confirm the pricing on these pieces. I'm not sure at this time if the pricing I have is for a pair or single piece. I'll bring the thread back up once I have an exact answer, sorry for the delay.
SVS Turbo
Enthusiast
I have a 96RT-10 stock hardtop (white)
and a Autoform hardtop on a 94RT-10 (red)
I will sell them both minus the Viper tax!
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
AviP
Enthusiast
Beautiful. It almost feels a shame to get them dirty. How much?
VIPER COLIN UK
Enthusiast
Across here in the UK £300 a pair, with the exchange rate at the moment it would relate to approx. $550 a pair plus shipping
Colin
www.miniviper.com
Colin
www.miniviper.com
