No, no bets as Ive heard rumors of a V8 option coming to Viper for awhile...Maybe this is it. Might lower production costs for Viper using a shared engine, who knows?
Id like to see cars weigh less but I guess thats more expensive than increasing HP
Challenger Hellcat gets 707HP!
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No, no bets as Ive heard rumors of a V8 option coming to Viper for awhile...Maybe this is it. Might lower production costs for Viper using a shared engine, who knows?
Id like to see cars weigh less but I guess thats more expensive than increasing HP
Probably would....
Putting a car on a diet is often a VERY expensive endeavor.
Sports Cars are already designed to be of low weight....cutting more can increase costs considerably (which is the last thing the Viper platform can afford right now).
If Dodge does it, I'll buy it.Who's gonna be the first to put that 8spd auto into a viper?
Bruce H.
Enthusiast
No Hellcat or forced induction engine for the Viper because it would not meet the Viper's core powertrain requirement of being best-suited for track endurance. FI is just for their muscle car with big power numbers and drag racing use, NA is for road racing. This directly from a very reliable source. Realize that the ZR1 couldn't make anywhere near 700+ with FI, new Z06 can't either, and it's highly unlikely that either could reliably hang with the Viper under harsh track conditions. Time to recognize and appreciate that the Viper already has the ultimate engine for the car's intended performance use.
Good points!
It will be interesting to see how Chevy deals with the heat soak on the Zo6, as well as Dodge with the Hellcat. Perhaps they have made gains in this area, IDK
pathoguy
Enthusiast
I have been driving high-performance cars on the street for 40 years. My first one was a V12 E-type jag when I was 21 (born and raised in London). I however have never changed oil or a spark plug, nor am I interested in racing the car. How can you keep a production car alive if its engine/performance design is so centered around track racing. Ford, Chevrolet, Nissan, BMW, Merc, Audi, Jaguar, Porsche, McClaren, Bentley etc etc....all use forced induction for their highest performance street models.
If the hp limits of the massive V10 have been reached for a street legal vehicle (the V10 viper engine has been massaged to 800 hp for a racing application), where does it go from here as all the above brands can so easily add a few more pounds of boost to raise the bar. I see the viper becoming an anachronism, as it fails to keep up with the modern powertrain trends of other high-performance brands (hp, 8 speed auto etc).
Still totally in love with the car, just want to see it mature in a non-track endurance way, as well as kick b.... around Laguna.
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F1 uses 1.6L V6 Turbo Hybrids.
You can't....there's no money in it.
A production car is first and foremost a street car.
If someone wants to track a car on a regular basis, go buy a race car (that is what they are created for).
Tracking a production street car is a compromise....at best.
Sadly, I have to agree.
Bruce H.
Enthusiast
How? By proving the complete car's performance on the race tracks. If it can perform well there it will obviously perform well in the hands of owners that want a high powered and high performance street car...and if they want to take it to the odd track day they know it's up to that too. Which of the brands you listed outperforms the Viper?
No they can't easily add a few more pounds of boost. Where did you ever get that idea? You seem to want more hp for bragging rights, and SRT wants ultimate performance for the Viper. I don't see them coming around to your way of thinking anytime soon...but who knows.
I vote that we let them continue to evolve the vision, and design the car, ever mindful of the fact that it is an exotic, and it has a long and successful racing history that has made it the high performance over-achiever that so many of us love.
Bruce
'14 TA
SnakeBitten
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No Hellcat motor in Viper please. Keep the Viper engine bespoke.
I would prefer to see the Viper remain a bulletproof track star even though I would also like to see it kick butt in the straights against its competition too. But its becoming pretty obvious that for it to do both in this age it will require it becoming a more complex vehicle with DCT, FI etc in order to cover both bases. Would the added complexity across the board cause all models to be less reliable than they are now on a road course? It would seem so by some of the posts from other boards of those who track cars like the GTR/ZR1 etc. I for one would NEVER want to see all Viper models lose their road course prowess/reliability for the sake of the straight line bragging rights. So if it can only be one or the other I think most of us would choose road course hero over straight line hero.
Would any of you be opposed to a separate model for the street [think GTS] with FI and DCT while retaining the SRT/TA/ACR N/A for the more coveted road course killing if it were feasible? A blown, DCT'd/Auto GTS would be the weapon of choice among the models for the street and would be bulletproof at 800-850hp. It would be kind of like Porsche with the GT3 for serious circuit track killing and the TT S for street and occasional tracking but much less focused on track than the GT2/GT3 models.
Obviously the track rats don't care about the straight line stuff as much as the roll racing guys do because the car still kicks butt there. However, a decent chunk of Viper Nation as well as enthusiasts of different marques love the roll racing stuff so a model for that if possible could be a hit. We already have 3 Viper models in SRT/GTS/TA. The GTS is the one aimed at more street comfort so why not make it the street monster that will still be able to track seriously but at a lesser degree than both N/A SRT/TA models? Just thinking out loud.
Or just maybe Dodges answer for the straight line street car lovers is the Hellcat and wll not be a Viper??? Hmmmm
I would prefer to see the Viper remain a bulletproof track star even though I would also like to see it kick butt in the straights against its competition too. But its becoming pretty obvious that for it to do both in this age it will require it becoming a more complex vehicle with DCT, FI etc in order to cover both bases. Would the added complexity across the board cause all models to be less reliable than they are now on a road course? It would seem so by some of the posts from other boards of those who track cars like the GTR/ZR1 etc. I for one would NEVER want to see all Viper models lose their road course prowess/reliability for the sake of the straight line bragging rights. So if it can only be one or the other I think most of us would choose road course hero over straight line hero.
Would any of you be opposed to a separate model for the street [think GTS] with FI and DCT while retaining the SRT/TA/ACR N/A for the more coveted road course killing if it were feasible? A blown, DCT'd/Auto GTS would be the weapon of choice among the models for the street and would be bulletproof at 800-850hp. It would be kind of like Porsche with the GT3 for serious circuit track killing and the TT S for street and occasional tracking but much less focused on track than the GT2/GT3 models.
Obviously the track rats don't care about the straight line stuff as much as the roll racing guys do because the car still kicks butt there. However, a decent chunk of Viper Nation as well as enthusiasts of different marques love the roll racing stuff so a model for that if possible could be a hit. We already have 3 Viper models in SRT/GTS/TA. The GTS is the one aimed at more street comfort so why not make it the street monster that will still be able to track seriously but at a lesser degree than both N/A SRT/TA models? Just thinking out loud.
Or just maybe Dodges answer for the straight line street car lovers is the Hellcat and wll not be a Viper??? Hmmmm
Mamba52
Enthusiast
I like the way your thinking. All the other brands do this now why not the Viper.
Agreed.
Unfortunately, it also means added cost at an inopportune time for the company.
I can't speak about heat issues with some FI street cars when tracked, but I do know turbos are run in all kinds of professional race series all over the world (such as The 24 Hours of Le Mans).
Time for a poll?
You bring up the big conundrum facing Dodge with regards to the Viper....
What is the MISSION of the Viper?
Is it a halo Sports Car...a car not meant to generate profits?
If the motive IS profit, how is it possible to produce a car with so many unique parts that only sells in the hundreds?
If it isn't profit, how sustainable can it be long-term?
Does it make sense to continue to develop such a platform in the face of ever increasing competition?
Should Dodge follow the model GM has created with the Corvette or the model Ford has created with the Mustang (with no true Sports Car in their inventory)?
pathoguy
Enthusiast
I funded a turbocharged 06 mustang which ran 10.0 at 136 mph in the 1/4. Started with a Procharger, then single turbo 67mm, then 76mm. Tuners changed the boost level at the strip. As long as fuel ratio was matched with correct injectors, and forged internals etc etc. Car started at 8lbs of boost on a supercharger on stock internals and ended at 22 lbs on fully built turboed motor. The supercharger folk had to change pulleys and such. Boost levels are easy to change as long as fuel is matched not to run lean. Fact that the manufactures use different flavors of FI at various levels of boost, shows how easy it can be.
Bruce H.
Enthusiast
What you and a tuner did to your Stang would not meet federal regulations or OEM requirements. Air fuel ratio and forged internals barely starts to scratch the surface of the issues they face. Even the tech savy GT-R falls on its face at stock boost levels when it's pushed. Its 545 hp probably dropped into the 300's in one comparo test against the Viper and others as its ECU goes into limp mode to protect it. The Viper engine is designed and tested by pros to handle harsh real world and track conditions at over 600 hp. Show me a 700+ FI engine that can survive the testing that Vipers do and I'll show you an engine that is too expensive to be used in a Viper...and the manufacturer has already determined that the Hellcat is not designed for the demands of the Viper. I suppose a de-tuned Hellcat could be considered to meet track day requirements, but that would defeat your goal of 700+ hp.
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FLL-B/W-GTS
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Street High Performance cars can run/ be raced/ran very hard/launched all day without heat soak...The 991 911 Turbo S I own runs 17 plus pounds of boost, with over boost. The car can be run at full performance all day long and nothing comes close to over heating. Coolant is at 195 and never moves and never any power loss. Yes, the cooling system is very complicated ,but it can be done.... Check with the Germans.But ,not for a week or so until the partying ends over their great victory in the World Cup..
No one ever has said stop making the traditional track monster Viper,just add all the new technology that the other HP cars have now and exactly what Dodge has done with the Hellcat so the Viper do not get whoop at the drag strip or on the street...
No one ever has said stop making the traditional track monster Viper,just add all the new technology that the other HP cars have now and exactly what Dodge has done with the Hellcat so the Viper do not get whoop at the drag strip or on the street...
elanderholm
Enthusiast
Just need to redesign a dohc, but still large v10 engine. Maybe 7ish liters and 120hp/liter like ferraris get. Would push 800+ in na. And would be one of the last na supercars. Give it a dct too at least as an option.
klamathpro
Viper Owner
No Hellcat or any Hemi will ever find it's way in a GEN-V because it physically won't fit. The heads are too large and it would require a complete redesign of the front bulkhead. It's not a reliability issue, it simply won't fit, too wide.
With that said, 8.4 liters is a lot of engine to work with. I say Dodge should redesign it with the ability to unlock a hotter cam and timing map with a track key and get maximum fuel efficiency with the normal 640 HP key. They may need to go with direct injection too. It's rediculous that the Challenger can do the 1/4 in 10.9 sec and the Viper has mags posting it at 11.1 - 11.4. My 98' GTS can do 11.9 on street tires for crying out loud. I know the Hellcat had DR's, but it doesn't help soften the blow to the halo car. The Viper needs to be a solid 10 sec car if it's going sell well because, at the end of the day, numbers talk and there are five cars in it's price range that can, or soon will, spank it in the quarter... The ZR1, new Z06, Hellcat, GT-R, 911 Turbo.
With that said, 8.4 liters is a lot of engine to work with. I say Dodge should redesign it with the ability to unlock a hotter cam and timing map with a track key and get maximum fuel efficiency with the normal 640 HP key. They may need to go with direct injection too. It's rediculous that the Challenger can do the 1/4 in 10.9 sec and the Viper has mags posting it at 11.1 - 11.4. My 98' GTS can do 11.9 on street tires for crying out loud. I know the Hellcat had DR's, but it doesn't help soften the blow to the halo car. The Viper needs to be a solid 10 sec car if it's going sell well because, at the end of the day, numbers talk and there are five cars in it's price range that can, or soon will, spank it in the quarter... The ZR1, new Z06, Hellcat, GT-R, 911 Turbo.
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The problem for engineers may be emissions....huge engines have a tendency to put out huge emissions.
There is a reason why Dodge has resisted straying too far from the original V10: Cost.
It's hard to make a business case for a new engine with a low volume car like the Viper.
The market for the Viper, in its current form, has been contracting.
If it is to survive, changes must be made.
Bruce H.
Enthusiast
If you need your Gen V to be a solid 10 second car you'll have that ability soon.
Large wheels offer better brake options too though, not just the silly rubber proportions. Hard to stuff enough stopping power for that much horsepower into a smaller rim, though the gen 3/4 setup is quite nice with just an 18" rim.
SnakeBitten
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I think NB with "DR's" went just as fast ET and mph-wise as the Hellcat in the 1/4 mile. So it appears they are both equally as fast with DR's at least up to a 1/4 mile. I suspect as the mph climb past say 150mph the Viper will start to pull away steadily. I'd love to see a mile run between these two stock to stock down to the tires and filters.
VIPER GTSR 91
Enthusiast
Just came across a web site article on it and they say "in the $80's". A bit high but they will sell.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
At the Vipers curb weight, even a 300mm full racing brake set up will lock up any slick you put on it so (assuming top quality calipers and materials) will require either ABS or driver control. You really don't need 14" rotors to stop quick. My buddies lightweight ****** can stop so hard it'll detach retinas (joking but not far off) and it has only tiny brakes to fit the class rules 14" wheels. Massive brakes are more about marketing than what is needed to race. Few full race cars can run 14+15" brakes yet they stop incredibly well on much stickier rubber than a street Viper can run. Adding weight makes it harder, but good materials not diameter are the key where you need race sticky tires. Road racers out there - am I right, or off the mark here?
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
I look forward to that.
SRT won't have the budget to make FI work on a Viper for road racing IMO, maybe as a special edition blown street car with auto 8sp (which would be hot after a few hot laps). If they prove me wrong I'm in as it'll be epic
Nevertheless as you know, FI and road racing can work very well (aka 917/30 Can Am Porsche etc) but requires the ability to isolate heat. Twin turbos are the ultimate way to go, but would create such a beast, what class could they actually race in without being ruled out or detuned to a shadow of their capability? It'd be a pure chest beating exercise, but could make an incredible road car and club track warrior.
Running a positive displacement blower on top of an engine with low frontal area is not a great design for road racing I agree with you. If GM really want a dominator ZR1 they should go to twin turbos and do it properly, but like the Veyron, with such a low CD frontal area, cooling will be a big issue (do-able with enough money, but difficult). A positive displacement blower however will always have limits before heat soak cannot be over come. I think your inference that 650-700hp is about that limit might be close. The more power, the more heat, so it has to be isolated and a PD blower cannot do that.
In a modern FI car built by an actual MANUFACTURER (not some guy in his garage), heat soak isn't something to worry about.
I have had 3 supercharged cars in the last 10 years and haven't had a single instance of overheating...not even close.
BTW, I drive my vehicles HARD.
I have had 3 supercharged cars in the last 10 years and haven't had a single instance of overheating...not even close.
BTW, I drive my vehicles HARD.
SnakeBitten
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Agreed.
Unfortunately, it also means added cost at an inopportune time for the company.
I can't speak about heat issues with some FI street cars when tracked, but I do know turbos are run in all kinds of professional race series all over the world (such as The 24 Hours of Le Mans).
Time for a poll?
You bring up the big conundrum facing Dodge with regards to the Viper....
What is the MISSION of the Viper?
Is it a halo Sports Car...a car not meant to generate profits?
If the motive IS profit, how is it possible to produce a car with so many unique parts that only sells in the hundreds?
If it isn't profit, how sustainable can it be long-term?
Does it make sense to continue to develop such a platform in the face of ever increasing competition?
Should Dodge follow the model GM has created with the Corvette or the model Ford has created with the Mustang (with no true Sports Car in their inventory)?
Good points. I would love turbo's as well but I dont know if Fiat would release the money/resources to do this yet if ever. And even if they did I wonder what they would ask for the price of entry? How much would one be willing to pay for a factory FI Viper?
SC is probably the more cost effective way to give it FI if they actually got around to doing it for the G5. They obviously were thinking about FI when they designed the G5 engine but maybe those thoughts went out the window when they saw that a 120-140k viper didn't sell well. I guess we will never know if a factory boosted Viper would sell until one is built for sale. It seems that quite a few would love to see at least one boosted model from what I've heard and read. But how many will actually buy it if it becomes available is another question.
pathoguy
Enthusiast
Let the viper hibernate for a while (like 07,11,12) until they get their act together for a serious upgrade. Adding colors and little bits of trim will not help. I predicted trouble for this car when the hp went from 600 to only 640 with the Gen 5, less than the Mustang GT500 at that time. It's a new marketplace defined by hp/torque numbers anyway you can get it. The hp number is more important than the number of cylinders.
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People have to remember the shape of the power and torque curves as well though. I'd rather have good useable power all the time than to brag I have twice as much as someone else, but only for the last 500 rpm of the engine limit. I jokingly call it Honda horsepower. You can get 1000 hp from a 4 cylinder, but your powerband will be a joke. I like knowing that whenever I put my foot down it will take off as opposed to waiting for the power to come in. You might be able to reconfigure the V10 as a higher revving smalling displacement engine and get more power (think Italian style), but you typically give up the low end to get there.
SnakeBitten
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I understand you saying this with a turbo. But with a SC that wont be the problem. Im sure you have seen the power/tq curve for a ZR1. Its actually a little better than the Vipers if memory serves. BTW with a pair of decent sized turbos would you necessarilly feel lag from an engine this size? If so I doubt it would be anything on the level of the 4 cyl or even 6 cyl turbo cars.
klamathpro
Viper Owner
I wish this would be enough for most folks, but it's the peak numbers that sell. The 2016 GT350 Ford is working on will have a flat plane crank which will allow for 8k+ RPM's at 550HP all motor.
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