Chevy ups the Ante.

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Geez, guys you just gave credit to GM for a car that is way down the Pike. The one thing GM is good at, and many of you have proved it, is building hype and stirring the *** when many of us know over the years that alot of what they claim doesn't even occur ( think of the projected weight on the new Vette as an example). So Kudos to them to work some of you up over a vehicle not even on the ground. I know many at SRT love this type of marketing as it tells everyone what is going on with plenty of lead time -- keep in mind Chrysler has the fastest build time of any US manufacturer. But they keep their cards closer to their chest and I definitely prefer that style over boasting months and years ahead. I congratulate them (GM ) for having the exact effect they desired, but actually surprised so many MoPar Fanatics fell for it again, as it has happened like this forever.

TowDawg,

Man, no offense but we need to get you to a VOI or the Plant , or just some downtime in Detroit with some of the SRT guys, whether engineering or design or even marketing. Fiat is not Daimler, and they are working in unison to create and perfect the Chrysler line like never before. You have the number one Automotive Executive in the World in Sergio Marchione, and if he was truly holding back the Viper due to the Ferrari he would have let it die. Yet, he is the one that resurrected it with one nod to build the beast. The conspriracy theory is somewhat laughable if you had a chance to chat with some of the guys at SRT ( not trying to insult you, just stating why you need to actually talk to some at Chrysler ). There is not one shred of concern there, since Europeans view the Viper in a different light than folks do over here. It is a Supercar with American muscle and appeals to a different breed , much like a rider of a Harley is not interested in a Honda Gold Wing. The Ferrari and the Viper have their own niches, and no one seems concerned at all --- keep in mind they built a special Alfa using the Viper engine, and that little stroke of engineering leads down the road of respect Fiat holds with all of Chrysler.

This is just a poker game and I only pray that SRT doesn't start showing their cards to GM, as we all know there is an ACR down the road , as well as some interesting R&D with the powertrains, but let's hope they continue to keep things hush-hush while GM bluffs with their hand face up.

 

[Stealth]

"The conspriracy theory is somewhat laughable if you had a chance to chat with some of the guys at SRT ( not trying to insult you, just stating why you need to actually talk to some at Chrysler ). There is not one shred of concern there, since Europeans view the Viper in a different light than folks do over here. It is a Supercar with American muscle and appeals to a different breed , much like a rider of a Harley is not interested in a Honda Gold Wing."

Didn't Ralph G. himself say to the VCA and others that Fiat would not permit the Viper to be faster/badder than the new F10 Ferrari?

There is no getting around the fact that SRT made the decision to move forward on a very limited budget for the Gen V. Arrow can easily out-pace the Gen V with a Gen IV for far less than the trade-up cost.

Hopefully the SRT strategy of a comfy looking Gen V will work and attact the new segments of buyers (better educated and richer than us!) to the Gen V. (BTW, I hold a post-graduate degree (JD) and paid cash for my Gen IV).

As noted above in this thread and others, the Viper has always been a very special car for us: a ferocious, awesome-looking monster that decimates just about everything in its path! It should also be evil looking like the Volado concept--not a refresh of a Gen II. Fine corinthinan leather from Napa Bats is fine, but not the primary focus. The potential issue of "non-sorted" Gen Vs being given to magazines for testing is really a non-issue. You are talking about incremental changes. We (many of us) want a cutting - edge new engine putting out 700hp, a more ergonomically usable cockpit, and much more forward-looking design. A wing, splitter and 20 hp will not help for the ACR; the entire package needs to change without increasing the price.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Ralph does have his masters too, and he may have singled out a million dollar Ferrari, but sure didn't mention the rest of the line. I think we have to stop and think what he should say, not what he wants to say. I would tend to agree, that like anyone, there are some things he has said that he would like to take back (the comment about more educated ,wealthier buyers ), but the facts are Fiat/Chrysler opened up an essentially brand new Plant , there was no funds spared there, the car involved some heavy funding to create a new body, chassis, etc. - so really wonder why one would think they had a very limited budget based on numbers to be built. Fiat/Chrysler supposedly poured tons into reawakening the Beast and doing all the upgrades and more funds were allocated than in past models . It can't we compared to a Corvette budget, where more cars are built in one year than Viper has done since 1992. Those that work for SRT have been shocked and pleased at the support given from Fiat - in fact many feel like they appreciated like never before. It was a tribute to the respect Chrysler has for the Viper and their owners when they sent more SRT personnel to VOI than had ever been seen in the past.

 

[VENOM V]

Stealth, you're over-thinking this. Fiat would be stupid to neuter the Viper on purpose to not compete with Ferrari, because that means they purposely also make it not compete with the Corvette, GT-R, R8, LFA, on and on. It's as simple as this- World economy crashed, automotive companies struggled, and SRT did the best they could maximizing performance and refinement with their limited budget. We agree there, the key here is limited budget. That's reality. Companies that think as you propose die quickly in the real world. And as far as SRT abandoning the base Viper nation, in the interest of new buyers (better educated, richer, bla bla bla), you're being very selective in your evidence when you draw that conclusion. SRT is trying to attract a broader spectrum of buyers, which is common sense if you want to sell cars. Simple as that. If you look at Ralph and team's strong involvement with VCA, it clearly puts an enoromous weight on focusing on the core Viper fans. Has SRT made mistakes? Absolutely, I bet you would too if you were a key decision maker there. Very hard to make everyone happy on a limited budget. I think they've done an excellent job with the Viper, all things considered.

 

[ViperSmith]

Does anyone buying a $1m Ferrari give a complete hoot to what a $100,000 Viper can do?

Absolutely not.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

ViperSmith --- nice simple logic , none can argue with that!!

 

[chorps]

Didn't Ralph G. himself say to the VCA and others that Fiat would not permit the Viper to be faster/badder than the new F10 Ferrari?

I was told the statement was that the new Viper 'was not' making more power than the new Ferrari, not that the statement said 'could not' be making more power. So it was just an observation of fact, not a directive.

 

[SilveRT8]

ViperSmith --- nice simple logic , none can argue with that!!

I'm quite sure someone on here can ....... And will !!!

 

[TowDawg]

Geez, guys you just gave credit to GM for a car that is way down the Pike. The one thing GM is good at, and many of you have proved it, is building hype and stirring the *** when many of us know over the years that alot of what they claim doesn't even occur ( think of the projected weight on the new Vette as an example). So Kudos to them to work some of you up over a vehicle not even on the ground. I know many at SRT love this type of marketing as it tells everyone what is going on with plenty of lead time -- keep in mind Chrysler has the fastest build time of any US manufacturer. But they keep their cards closer to their chest and I definitely prefer that style over boasting months and years ahead. I congratulate them (GM ) for having the exact effect they desired, but actually surprised so many MoPar Fanatics fell for it again, as it has happened like this forever.

TowDawg,

Man, no offense but we need to get you to a VOI or the Plant , or just some downtime in Detroit with some of the SRT guys, whether engineering or design or even marketing. Fiat is not Daimler, and they are working in unison to create and perfect the Chrysler line like never before. You have the number one Automotive Executive in the World in Sergio Marchione, and if he was truly holding back the Viper due to the Ferrari he would have let it die. Yet, he is the one that resurrected it with one nod to build the beast. The conspriracy theory is somewhat laughable if you had a chance to chat with some of the guys at SRT ( not trying to insult you, just stating why you need to actually talk to some at Chrysler ). There is not one shred of concern there, since Europeans view the Viper in a different light than folks do over here. It is a Supercar with American muscle and appeals to a different breed , much like a rider of a Harley is not interested in a Honda Gold Wing. The Ferrari and the Viper have their own niches, and no one seems concerned at all --- keep in mind they built a special Alfa using the Viper engine, and that little stroke of engineering leads down the road of respect Fiat holds with all of Chrysler.

This is just a poker game and I only pray that SRT doesn't start showing their cards to GM, as we all know there is an ACR down the road , as well as some interesting R&D with the powertrains, but let's hope they continue to keep things hush-hush while GM bluffs with their hand face up.

????
I haven't commented on this thread. Dang Bill, I'm already in trouble on this board without you calling me out by mistake.

 

[commandomatt]

Part 1:

Not an argument....The guy in the market for a new Ferrari may not care.....but I am sure Ferrari cares, and since Ferrari and Chrysler is now owned by the same company, they are smart enough to make sure they don't shoot themselves in the foot.

If a company owns a high end deli and next to it a 5 star restaurant, the owners will not allow the deli so sell a better steak than the 5 star joint. Maybe a crude comparison but the fact is that Ferrari sells high end super cars. Not mini vans.....not family sedans...no teenie bopper entry cars. Chrysler does. Ferrari need to be on top of the food chain to survive....Chrysler does not. The Viper is a cool idea and a great car but I certainly don't believe that Fiat will allow the Viper to out perform their own Legendary Super cars.

My point is this. It comes down to funding and if Liang Gen V book was based of facts, and I am sure we can assume that is was, then it was pretty apparent that when designing the Gen V, even though funding was made available, there was plenty of places where they just couldn't spend what they probably need and wanted to spend in order to make the car that much better. Specifically the engine itself. Was there additional money available, I am sure we would see a very different new Viper that would kick the old one out the park.....even pre production models.

So as it were....they got a credit line and spent the money where they felt they could make the biggest impact and attract the most buyers. They brought he Viper back and that is absolutely fantastic.

Again....lets go back to the Mother ship, Fiat. They obviously, liked the idea of a cool, raw all American muscle, super or whatever car you want to call it. It will sell. No huge numbers, that's not the intention, but it will sell. But lets face it. I am certain that the margins on a Viper and especially considering the production numbers, are low. This is not a money maker. It may be Chrysler's Halo car.....but it is not Fiat's Halo car. That is reserved for the Ferrari's.

So with all that blabber above I am trying to say, that in my opinion, the Viper will never be allowed to surpass the Ferrari in overall performance.

Part 2:

Because of the above, Fiat controlling the money spent on the Viper, this will ultimately also hurt the car when it comes to the evil enemy....the Vette. I think its safe to say that everyone on this board likes the fact that the Viper is a very limited production car. Its just rare. That is very cool but it also means that the profits (if any) it creates may not be enough to make it that much better.

This is where GM and the Vette certainly has the upper hand. If the C7 Vettes will be produced in the same numbers as previous models then that will leave so much more to throw back into the car and making it that much better. They don't have to worry about someone holding them back because they cant have it be better than another car in their fleet. They want this to be their Baddest and Best car they can offer. They want to beat the Viper and if they do allow the money to be spent that it will take to do it, then they most certainly will. Doesn't matter if doesn't appeal design wise to the Viper crowd. They could care less. The come back 'but its ugly' just don't count for much when you got taken to the cleaners.

.....ok, one more thing and then I am done.

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the old ACR not much more than a std Viper with aero and suspension ? I am sure there were some more details like brakes and wheels etc but really not that big of a difference.

When was it said that the 'new' ACR will be a totally different car is every respect ? It may be so but is that really the intention. To create another car that is so different than what we have been presented with the SRT and GTS. Is this just everyone's wish or has SRT actually said anything to that effect ?

So many are mentioning that they are waiting for the new ACR and I am just curious what has been talked about (not wishful thinking) as a possibility since it sounds like this car will be so much different ?

Done !

Matt

 

[sween]

Really don't see the big deal about this post. ZR-1 isn't going to come out for a while, it should very well be at 700 hp. Z06 being at about 600 hp sounds right. I thought the C7 corvette would have more than 450 hp. Honestly don't see what some people on here are so surprised about. .

 

[Coloviper]

Recent performance numbers (magazines) were quashed by a overly hot ZR1 that was track prepped. Don't be fooled by the Motor Trend BS and others. The ZR1 was not a run of the mill ZR1 Chevy sent so time to grow up fellows. End of story, period, finished on that.

Now the other aspect is the Viper numbers we have seen are for cars not fully sorted and a car that did not have the bar set high enough on performance from the start as an extra 40 hp was just not enough. Sure it is extreme fast still as even the unsorted numbers are fast but with the right budget maybe they would have hit it harder, however I feel they spent the money in the best places, interior and fit/finish. These were the places the old Viper was absolutely delinquent in and everyone knows it. I can tell you the Viper team was having a lot of trouble with the EPA with the new motor on the high altitude tests. Everyone seems to forget it must pass the new standards not whether it can hit 700. It can easily but doing it with the EPA requirements is a whole different animal.

I don't know what all all you snake owners are seeing in this new vette. It is absolutely horrible. And for you to be priasing and validating future Z06 and ZR1 as beating everything in sight, I think you need to awake from your wet dreams. The new vette has a measly 450 hp and looks like a styling rip off of everything on the market with the worse rear end next to a Pontiak Aztek. I just don't know what cool aid you are drinking but sounds like you need to drink it else where.

I still can't believe you guys are still crying over this stuff.

 

[Makara]

Recent performance numbers (magazines) were quashed by a overly hot ZR1 that was track prepped. Don't be fooled by the Motor Trend BS and others. The ZR1 was not a run of the mill ZR1 Chevy sent so time to grow up fellows. End of story, period, finished on that.

Now the other aspect is the Viper numbers we have seen are for cars not fully sorted and a car that did not have the bar set high enough on performance from the start as an extra 40 hp was just not enough. Sure it is extreme fast still as even the unsorted numbers are fast but with the right budget maybe they would have hit it harder, however I feel they spent the money in the best places, interior and fit/finish. These were the places the old Viper was absolutely delinquent in and everyone knows it. I can tell you the Viper team was having a lot of trouble with the EPA with the new motor on the high altitude tests. Everyone seems to forget it must pass the new standards not whether it can hit 700. It can easily but doing it with the EPA requirements is a whole different animal.

I don't know what all all you snake owners are seeing in this new vette. It is absolutely horrible. And for you to be priasing and validating future Z06 and ZR1 as beating everything in sight, I think you need to awake from your wet dreams. The new vette has a measly 450 hp and looks like a styling rip off of everything on the market with the worse rear end next to a Pontiak Aztek. I just don't know what cool aid you are drinking but sounds like you need to drink it else where.

I still can't believe you guys are still crying over this stuff.

We all had that knee **** reaction that the ZR1 was running a bit hot, but didn't the dyno tests show it was putting down about what it normally does? As far as race prepped, didn't Probst mention "off the record" that he felt that the viper was set up to turn the direction that would help most on Laguna Seca? (left I believe) You can keep drinking the kool-aid if you wish but it seems pretty clear to me that if the viper is going to stay the performance benchmark that it has enjoyed being for many of it's 20 years, it had better up it's game.

 

[ViperSmith]

Uh the dyno run had 40 more HP than the avg stock dyno

 

[ACRucrazy]

Ya that ZR1 dyno was much higher than average. Even the non nut swinging corvette owners caught and acknowledged it. But that's a dead horse.

 

[bluestreak]

I have been a stout defender of the Gen V (other than those ragedy Corsas). However SRT better get it together if these rumors are true. Based on the information we have so far, the Gen V is already behind the C6Z (Z07 or Carbon) and ZR1 around a circuit (stock equipment) and pretty much even on the strip.

If the rumors are even partially true I dont think SRT can stay competitive without Forced Induction. Just my opinion though. Though I still don't think either C7 will catch the Gen IV ACR on the nurburgring (at least initially) without some major aero enhancements if Jim Mero is still driving.

 

[PDCjonny]

Recent performance numbers (magazines) were quashed by a overly hot ZR1 that was track prepped. Don't be fooled by the Motor Trend BS and others. The ZR1 was not a run of the mill ZR1 Chevy sent so time to grow up fellows. End of story, period, finished on that.

Now the other aspect is the Viper numbers we have seen are for cars not fully sorted and a car that did not have the bar set high enough on performance from the start as an extra 40 hp was just not enough. Sure it is extreme fast still as even the unsorted numbers are fast but with the right budget maybe they would have hit it harder, however I feel they spent the money in the best places, interior and fit/finish. These were the places the old Viper was absolutely delinquent in and everyone knows it. I can tell you the Viper team was having a lot of trouble with the EPA with the new motor on the high altitude tests. Everyone seems to forget it must pass the new standards not whether it can hit 700. It can easily but doing it with the EPA requirements is a whole different animal.

I don't know what all all you snake owners are seeing in this new vette. It is absolutely horrible. And for you to be priasing and validating future Z06 and ZR1 as beating everything in sight, I think you need to awake from your wet dreams. The new vette has a measly 450 hp and looks like a styling rip off of everything on the market with the worse rear end next to a Pontiak Aztek. I just don't know what cool aid you are drinking but sounds like you need to drink it else where.

I still can't believe you guys are still crying over this stuff.

The new Vette is a "styling ripoff" but the new Viper is just genius taking 85% of its styling cues from a 17 year old design. Right.
This gentleman is the definition of a nutswinger extraordinaire.

 

[v10enomous]

The new Vette is a "styling ripoff" but the new Viper is just genius taking 85% of its styling cues from a 17 year old design. Right.

The FGT took it's cues from a 45 year old design as does the GenV. Both designs have set records at the big auctions.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Kratos]

You guys are way off on your Z06 prices! I bought mine new for $69k. You can find them everywhere for under $70k, or under $65k if you get a base model (1LZ) Z06.

A fully loaded 2013 Z06, with carbon hood, carbon fiber package, premium wheels, colored calipers, ZR1 spoiler, 60th anniversay edition package, etc can be had for under $80k.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-...k-chevrolet-needem-gone-up-to-18-500-off.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-...04-what-17-500-off-13-z06-now-til-2-28-a.html

This is when you find good deals and mark-offs. For an average buyer who walks up on a random corvette lot.....he'll be paying close to 6 figures.

 

[SilveRT8]

The FGT took it's cues from a 45 year old design as does the GenV. Both designs have set records at the big auctions.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

Love those wide fender flares on the back of the GT40 !
A version of this on the GEN V would be killer

 

[v10enomous]

This is when you find good deals and mark-offs. For an average buyer who walks up on a random corvette lot.....he'll be paying close to 6 figures.

The C5 Z's are dipping into the teens now and the C6 Z's will be mid to high 20's this time next year...

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

TowDawg, old man can't read and my sincerest apologies. I guess I was responding to BigDawg, but all you Dawgs look alike, he,he.

You are so right, and I goofed , so go have a beer on me , and pour down an genuine " I'm Sorry," as you quaff your thirst.

Needing bifocals in Nebraska,

Bill P

 

[TowDawg]

No worries. lol

 

[Coloviper]

Viper at least pulled from historical designs (no longer used) and heavily on its own history. New Vette pulls from everything current on every other car in the market, other than the hood which from the top is slightly old Corvette Stingray looking. There is a big difference. This new Vette might as well have been designed in China.

Styling genius, well I would hardly say that. In fact I didn't say that, so I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, thank you. For what it is, the new Viper is what it is. It's not perfect but there is only so much you can do with the look and keep it original to the concept. There is a reason there is no new Cobra and why when the Ford GT returned, it was exactly as the old GT40. Somethings are only meant to look one way but be refreshened. Tens of thousands of Porsche 911 owners and sales would agree.

 

[v10enomous]

The bottom line is that if you want to spend $125k for the C7 ZR1 and you are OK riding around in a mainstream kinda car than the Chevy is the way to go. Right now Chevy doesn't even have a car that competes with the Viper which you can buy now for $100k and have something extraordinary.

 

[bushido]

Oh man the current ZR1 killed the new Viper. Now this wow!

 

[Camfab]

It's great to see GM stepping up. I still don't get the mentality here, who cares if a Z-06 is over 100K, just like who cares if a Viper is 150K. I can't believe all the negative dialogue, GM and Chrysler are doing what everyone wants, they are building killer cars. So who put some of you in charge of determining what they can charge for that leap in technology.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Oh man the current ZR1 killed the new Viper. Now this wow!

You mean a 4 year refined ZR1 on MPSCs beat a preproduction mule by 2 seconds? You don't say. I still have faith in the Gen V.

 

[1BADGTS]

Recent performance numbers (magazines) were quashed by a overly hot ZR1 that was track prepped. Don't be fooled by the Motor Trend BS and others. The ZR1 was not a run of the mill ZR1 Chevy sent so time to grow up fellows. End of story, period, finished on that.

Now the other aspect is the Viper numbers we have seen are for cars not fully sorted and a car that did not have the bar set high enough on performance from the start as an extra 40 hp was just not enough. Sure it is extreme fast still as even the unsorted numbers are fast but with the right budget maybe they would have hit it harder, however I feel they spent the money in the best places, interior and fit/finish. These were the places the old Viper was absolutely delinquent in and everyone knows it. I can tell you the Viper team was having a lot of trouble with the EPA with the new motor on the high altitude tests. Everyone seems to forget it must pass the new standards not whether it can hit 700. It can easily but doing it with the EPA requirements is a whole different animal.

I don't know what all all you snake owners are seeing in this new vette. It is absolutely horrible. And for you to be priasing and validating future Z06 and ZR1 as beating everything in sight, I think you need to awake from your wet dreams. The new vette has a measly 450 hp and looks like a styling rip off of everything on the market with the worse rear end next to a Pontiak Aztek. I just don't know what cool aid you are drinking but sounds like you need to drink it else where.

I still can't believe you guys are still crying over this stuff.

I can tell you first hand magazine test cars are appropriated from the marketing department which passes them from mag to mag (CHEVY PERF DIVISION has absolutely positively no knowledge of what was going on .)When a mag calls for a car marketing does not even ask what its being used for.If anything the ZR-1 provided was TIRED because of the abuse it recieved from going from mag to mag. Let me give you a prime example when Mopar Perf tested the Gen 2 back in 99 i was present when the GEN 2 record was set The car had just come from Car and Driver and the clutch was SLIGHTY TIRED .Its not remotely like you think other than a car in factory prototype status as there are no RINGERS.

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

Commandomatt,

And Team Viper had to spend time and money establishing a new supplier network as many of the previous suppliers were either gone or no longer interested in low volume business.

IMHO, when Team Viper started the task of bringing the Viper back, they had no idea that they would be building a new supplier network nor that it would absorb the time and effort it did. Team Viper had a small team, not much time and a budget that just couldn't cover establishing this supplier network and do all the things they wanted to. Therefore some tradeoffs were made. I'm willing to bet that there is a list of things that Team Viper wants to do as soon as the time and money becomes available. One good thing that came out of the new supplier network is that most of these suppliers are able to make a profit on small quantities. Therefore changes to the Gen V should be easier to make and faster to come.

IMHO,the key now is selling cars so that money is coming in! REVENUE! All else will follow.