What should have turned out to be an easy job has turned into a frustrating day. We replaced clutch with kevlar flywheel with aluminum and stock pressure plate installation went great not onw problem until went too shift car with car not running you can put tranny into any gear with car running you cannot get car into gear at all as if the clucth is not releasing all the way we bled the clutch slave cylinder more than enough disconnected line and checked for any debris and replaced and then bled again still the same problem now before we take this all apart again has any one had or heard of such a problem please advise. Thank you.
Clutch Installation Problems Need Help
- Thread starter GONABITE
- Start date
jp
Enthusiast
It can be your TOB that need to be replaced. We had to open up mine and fabricate plastic washers so the the TOB could operate fully. That solved the leaking and pressure problem for about 3 months... I'm now changing to a new TOB. (they are made of soft aluminum and will wear out)
I have McLeod Aluminum flywheel and the Archer Kevlar Clutch.
I have McLeod Aluminum flywheel and the Archer Kevlar Clutch.
joe117
Enthusiast
I had this happen on a Triumph TR3 many years ago. We replaced the clutch and pressure plate. When done we found the same thing that you had, the clutch acted like it wouldnt release. We adjusted the slave and pressed it so hard that we bent the slave pushrod. We asked guys we knew and here's what one guy said that turned out to be the answer. The pressure plate had a protective coating that made it stick to the disk. We put the car in fist gear, push started it in a parking lot and bounced the gas over and over while pressing in on the clutch. It broke free and never stuck again. Over the years I did hear about this probem at least one other time. Good Luck
Nadine the whole job went smooth as silk this is why I don't understand. Joe and JP thanks for your input I will be back at it today and will probably be taking it back out jsut to reinspect everything thanks. Any more input would be great if anyone has any ideas. I will advise on how we make out.
jp
Enthusiast
Is there any fluid leaking from the TOB? Have you found any drips under the car?
joe117
Enthusiast
Let us know what it turns out to be.
So we took the transmission out and diassembled everything checked clearences and heights on all new components copared to old parts everything was ok we then proceded to check the distance that the throwout bearing moves when applying the clutch pedal with the slave cylinder offf the tranny we connected it to the master slave line and stepped on the clutch and it moved all of a 1/2 an inch everything moved ok and also no leaks there we put it all back together and still the same problem the clutch is not releasing so with the inspection cover off and one person applying the clutch pedal we could check the movement again of the TOB and it only moved an 1/8 of an inch obviously not enough to release the clutch from the flywheel we bled it again and still no go again the pressure plate is stock so no added resistance other than a new pressure plate versus one with 24000 miles on it has changed. So this leads us to believe that it is a hydraulic problem with no TOB leak we narrowed it down to the master slave cylinder it must be letting fluid by when depressing the pedal we also noted that the TOB does not start to move until the pedal is at least half way down which should not be it should start moving as soon as any freeplay in pedal is taken up and is not so I have to wait until I can check on parts availability in the a.m.. If this sounds familiar to anyone please let me know. Thanks
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
I would really look hard at the possibility of having air in your clutch hydraulic system. If it worked before and nothing changed (except you blead the system) is should work now. Your right on when you say as soon as the play is taken up it should start moving.
Solve this puzzle, it explains why, If an electrician throws a switch in LA and the wire runs to a light in New York and a hydraulic mech pushes on an actuator in LA that throws a switch in New York next to a light which light will light first? The one with the hydraulic actuator because hydraulic fluid does not compress its instantaneous. Electricity takes a while to get where its going.
Now the point, I think there is air in the system or you have leaky gaskets in slave cylinder. Could it be that the new pressure plate is causing the leak in the slave cylider since the springs are likely stronger than the old ones you took out?
Solve this puzzle, it explains why, If an electrician throws a switch in LA and the wire runs to a light in New York and a hydraulic mech pushes on an actuator in LA that throws a switch in New York next to a light which light will light first? The one with the hydraulic actuator because hydraulic fluid does not compress its instantaneous. Electricity takes a while to get where its going.
Now the point, I think there is air in the system or you have leaky gaskets in slave cylinder. Could it be that the new pressure plate is causing the leak in the slave cylider since the springs are likely stronger than the old ones you took out?
joe117
Enthusiast
It's air in the line, bleed it. The air in the line is no problem until you put a load on it, then it compresses the air instead of moving the clutch. Classic symptom.
Nadine UK GTS
Enthusiast
No-go pumping the pedal?
Good luck...we're thinking of you, lets us know.
Good luck...we're thinking of you, lets us know.
joe117
Enthusiast
I'm just wondering how the fluid is passing the piston and not leaking out where you can see it. If it were passing the master cylinder piston it can't get back into the system, right? That's why I was thinking air after you described the load/no load diference in travel. Do you think your bleed is for sure getting all the air out?
jp
Enthusiast
I think you have the same problem as we had when we changed the clutch. When we put in the Archer Racing clutch did we not get enough movement to engage the clutch. We did a temporarily solution by putting in two spacers inside the TOB so that we moved the movement further out. It worked for about three months. I will put in a new TOB next week.
HP
Enthusiast
Sometimes the, method of bleeding a hydraulic line, makes a
difference. A more fool-proof method for bleeding this sort
of line, would be a pressure bleed from the slave cylinder.
This can be accomplished with a large syringe(from a local pharmacy) and clear tubing to attach to the syringe. Fill syringe with brake fluid, attach tubing to syringe and bleed-valve(on slave cylinder) - then force fluid back up to master cylinder. If air is trapped, and does not respond to regular
bleeding methods, this would be effective. If this does not
work, then you know, air in lines, is not your problem.
difference. A more fool-proof method for bleeding this sort
of line, would be a pressure bleed from the slave cylinder.
This can be accomplished with a large syringe(from a local pharmacy) and clear tubing to attach to the syringe. Fill syringe with brake fluid, attach tubing to syringe and bleed-valve(on slave cylinder) - then force fluid back up to master cylinder. If air is trapped, and does not respond to regular
bleeding methods, this would be effective. If this does not
work, then you know, air in lines, is not your problem.
HP thanks for the advise I have something similar to that only its a snap on brand make of a bleed kit same idea as what your a saying. I put the new master cylinder in and no good so now I have ordered a slave cylinder and will put that in tommorow once that is replaced I am down to the new parts which I highly doubt is where the problem lyes.
joe117
Enthusiast
The delta between the distance moved with and without load is classic air in the line. I don't see how any fluid can get past the master or slave piston without leaking out. It may work when you put in the new slave but I don't think anything is wrong with the old one. Of course, by that time you will be so glad it works that you won't care why.
Mike Adams
Enthusiast
Do you have free play in the pedal ? I have run into the same problem. You have to follow a special bleed proceedure. The device talked about earlier does not work !
Maverick The Electrician
Enthusiast
We had the same problem, it turned out to be a bad pressure plate.
Yes I have a full pedal. You can look through the inspection plate and watch the disc move only when the pedal is half way applied and then when you have the pedal all the way down it begins to apply again as if there is a leak internally in the system. JOE 117 there are rubber seals in the master cylinder and the slave cylinder if they get folded over or worn out fluid will pass by internally and get the problem that I am having the ony problem is you can't tell which of the two that it is until replacement.
joe117
Enthusiast
I know that when the piston seals get bad/folded the fluid will squeeze by just like bad rings in an engine. The problem I'm having with this diagnosis is that when the fluid squeezes by the piston in either the master or slave cylinder there is no way for the fluid to get back into the system. The leaky piston seal won't **** it back in. It must build up on the wrong side where it will leak out. If it was leaking past the master cyl piston it would eventually come out of the boot seal where the shaft enters the cylinder. I just don't see how it can be doing what you think without a leak. I do see how air could cause the problem. I've never bled one of these so I'm no expert on doing the job. I do know what would happen if you had air trapped somewhere and if you did that would cause the exact symptoms you have. You tell me, if the fluid is getting past the piston, where is it going?
There is one other long shot here. If you had a hydraulic line that was swelling up under pressure that would do it too.
There is one other long shot here. If you had a hydraulic line that was swelling up under pressure that would do it too.
HP
Enthusiast
To test a master cylinder, plug or block off the exit line.
After that, if you get stiff resistance or no movement, when
you engage it, the master cylinder is OK. There does't have to
be a leakage for a master cyclinder to be bad. One of the malfunctions, can be for the plunger, not to load-up(or take in
brake fluid) from the reservoir. If that is the case, it won't work, and you won't have any fluid leakage
After that, if you get stiff resistance or no movement, when
you engage it, the master cylinder is OK. There does't have to
be a leakage for a master cyclinder to be bad. One of the malfunctions, can be for the plunger, not to load-up(or take in
brake fluid) from the reservoir. If that is the case, it won't work, and you won't have any fluid leakage
HP
Enthusiast
To test a master cylinder, plug or block off the exit line.
After that, if you get stiff resistance or no movement, when
you engage it, the master cylinder is OK. There does't have to
be a leakage for a master cyclinder to be bad. One of the malfunctions, can be for the plunger, not to load-up(or take in
brake fluid) from the reservoir. If that is the case, it won't work, and you won't have any fluid leakage
After that, if you get stiff resistance or no movement, when
you engage it, the master cylinder is OK. There does't have to
be a leakage for a master cyclinder to be bad. One of the malfunctions, can be for the plunger, not to load-up(or take in
brake fluid) from the reservoir. If that is the case, it won't work, and you won't have any fluid leakage
joe117
Enthusiast
Well, if it won't take in fluid how do you explain the fact that it works with a full movement when it's not under load? I think he has already replaced the master clutch cylinder anyway with no improvement. I'm glad that this isn't my problem but I really like arguing about what might be the cause. I hope people don't think I'm a di*k for arguing about it. It's all in fun and just trying to help out.
HP
Enthusiast
Hydraulics systems, like what your dealing with, are so simple in
design, but can be so aggravating. I've rebuilt them, cussed them when
that didn't work, only to try them later and find everything ok.
I mean it's like 2 syringes connected together, move one plunger and the other moves. But when they don't work..... #@#*$%*#
design, but can be so aggravating. I've rebuilt them, cussed them when
that didn't work, only to try them later and find everything ok.
I mean it's like 2 syringes connected together, move one plunger and the other moves. But when they don't work..... #@#*$%*#
Believe me Hugh it is very frustrating, I have a big race event this weekend I have been scrambling to get parts overnighted, then the dealer send the wrong parts the worst part about it is Wednesday they sent me over a master cylinder. Not the problem so I call back and order a slave cylinder have it overnighted comes in today and what do they have but another master cylinder now why would I order another master I talked to the same guy he felt really stupid today.
Joe I have no problem but to argue your point about air, I will argue that it is a hydraulic problem because with no pressure against the TOB it will have full travel with pressure against it hence the pressure plate it is to much for the seal to take and it lets fluid bypass. Sort off like a relief valve, except I don't want one of those!
Tomer
Enthusiast
GONABITE, way to hang in there!! Are you doing this on a lift, or jack stands...?
I had a horrible experience with my old Cuda, but thats different, and the problem was when I had the pressure plate rebuilt they put in the wrong springs, and even with the right amount of movement from the mechanical linkage, she would not release...I had to R&R the tranny 5 times....dohhhhhhhhhh
Good luck, I hope its the slave cylinder!
Tomer
I had a horrible experience with my old Cuda, but thats different, and the problem was when I had the pressure plate rebuilt they put in the wrong springs, and even with the right amount of movement from the mechanical linkage, she would not release...I had to R&R the tranny 5 times....dohhhhhhhhhh
Good luck, I hope its the slave cylinder!
Tomer
Thanks Tomer no I have it on a lift I have to sa I am getting pretty good a removing the tranny I got it down to 35 minutes tonight. Well the pressure plate is new and it is a stock replacement if the slave does not take care of this problem I will have to look at replacing the disc and pressure plate once again but I really see no problem they are straight and the same height as the old parts.
joe117
Enthusiast
Now please, Mr. Bite, take this all in the spirit of the argument....
You never answered my question and that is, if the fluid is bypassing the piston, where does that bypassed fluid go? If fluid is bypassing the piston it will be outside the closed hydraulic system and it will leak out someplace. If fluid is bypassing the slave piston then each time you push down on the clutch pedal, the fluid that bypasses will be removed from the closed hydraulic system and new fluid will be drawn from the resevoir to take its place. Do you see the level in the resevoir dropping? If you don't then how can it be bypassing? Bypass is possible but then the bypassed fluid is on the wrong side of the slave piston and it can never get back into the closed hydraulic system. Where am I wrong?
What would happen if you had a leak in a caliper piston in you brakes? Fluid would bypass, leak out, you wouldn't get full pressure to the pads, fluid would be visible outside the system and the level in the fluid resivoir would drop.
What would happen if you had air in the brake hyraulic system? You wouldn't get full pressure on the pads, they wouldn't move as much as you wanted and there would be no leaking fluid.
You never answered my question and that is, if the fluid is bypassing the piston, where does that bypassed fluid go? If fluid is bypassing the piston it will be outside the closed hydraulic system and it will leak out someplace. If fluid is bypassing the slave piston then each time you push down on the clutch pedal, the fluid that bypasses will be removed from the closed hydraulic system and new fluid will be drawn from the resevoir to take its place. Do you see the level in the resevoir dropping? If you don't then how can it be bypassing? Bypass is possible but then the bypassed fluid is on the wrong side of the slave piston and it can never get back into the closed hydraulic system. Where am I wrong?
What would happen if you had a leak in a caliper piston in you brakes? Fluid would bypass, leak out, you wouldn't get full pressure to the pads, fluid would be visible outside the system and the level in the fluid resivoir would drop.
What would happen if you had air in the brake hyraulic system? You wouldn't get full pressure on the pads, they wouldn't move as much as you wanted and there would be no leaking fluid.
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