Come have a laugh, maybe you can help

[Drew]

K, i need some help, and in return you may get a laugh.
I live in Prince George, our winters are long, my new viper is in storage.
I have it on jack stands, tires removed and a battery tender.
The car is in a warm facility.
I fired it up the other day after it had sat for 2 months. I put it in first gear, got out of the car to admire the motor.
I "shut " the drivers door when I got out of the car. (insert laugh here)
Both Keys where on the one FOB in the ignition. Ya to my surprise the doors where locked. I drove 30 min home, picked up the other FOB and 30 mins back.
11 new KM on the speedo, I only drove it 100 before I put it in storage.
The second FOB in hand, pushed unlock button, and you guessed it, nothing happened. ( why would the FOB unlock the doors of a car that thinks its puttin down the road )
Gettin a little stressed at this point cause its running pretty hot.
I looked at the fuse box, it was kinda of an eeni meeni minee mo descision. Fuel pump fuse....sure sounds good to me. I pulled it, the car stopped right away, doors unlocked. I put the fuse back in.
Got back into the car, put the key to ignition, and rolled down drivers window (once bitten, twice shy)
Hit the start button, and nothing...oh oh, what did I blow?
Disconnected the battery, gave it 10 mins, tried again, nothing(starting to panic)
Phone the dealer mechanic, informed him of my doings.
He brought over three scanners and none of them will connect/communicate with car.
He swiched around some relays, still nothing.
Battery is perfect.
They figure it has to do with the ASD systems, but there she sits all show, no go.
Anyone out there that can offer direction or experience with my woes would be kindly welcome.

Drew

 

[Viper Parts of America]

Okay, we checked with our friends at SRT and here you go:

As this is a Canadian car it has “Active Arming Alarm”. You have to push unlock on the fob before attempting to crank, or it won’t. Even after pressing unlock, it will relock itself after 60 seconds (per Canadian Law)…

So… Key Off…. Press Unlock – make sure the car is responding to fob. Key On, Press Start. Now, if it runs, that was the problem. However, if it does not run, tell us what happens: Do you hear the fuel pump prime (whirring noise from tank)? Does it crank or no?

Let us know the results and we will be happy to help in any way we can.

Jerry

 

[snakebitdave]

Sorry, can't help except for the laughing part!! Hilarious! And I though stuff like this only happens to me.

 

[Drew]

No Go. walk up to the car, door locked use the FOB unlock the door, jump in key in ignition, turn key. Gauge indicators all 4 dont move at all, all 4 gauge leds are on push the start button, radio/clock dies, blower relay in fuse box clicks, oil temperatre led goes out, the other three stay on, eng light on, abs light on, )Z( light on, once you let go of start button, blower relay de-energizes, a couple seconds later the oil temp temp led comes back on, all other lights stay the same. The motor doesnt crank, the fuel pump doesnt start. All fuses checked. the mechanic also swapped around relays incase one was bad.

The battery was verified to be fully charged. The mechanic removed the starter relay in the fuse box and jumped N/O contacts and motor turns over.

 

[DMan]

I don't feel so bad about locking my keys in my trunk of my SRT10 now, lol, good luck, sounds like Jerry may be a big help though as you trouble shoot it.

 

[Viper Parts of America]

All four gauges down usually means the gateway is offline… (But if the voltmeter is still working it’s something else)

Make sure the gateway (which is under the driver’s seat) is plugged in and has power.

There is some concern that if you aren’t getting ASD's powering up, fuel pump priming - it's possible that the PCM was damaged when the pump relay was yanked: The fuel pump relay also supplies the PCM power. Now if the fuel pump is activating then the PCM is up and running and the lack of start is something else.

Are any fuses currently pulled or is the car all assembled right now?

You really going to need to get a StarScan on the car to see what modules are on-line and which aren’t. (Any Dodge dealer should have one, even that far north). The StarScan should be able to indicate exactly which modules are off line (even if the gateway is down). Let us know any / all codes present.

So here is what can we know so far:

If Fuel Pump Priming = Good PCM
If ASD Relays Powering Up = Good PCM
If No Gauges at all = Gateway module offline
If Voltmeter working but not others = Gateway okay but possibly the PCM is offline or the CAN lines damaged between gateway and PCM (this, only if the pump is priming and still no gauges)
Cranking by jumping at fuse box = Good starter

Here is the diagram for the Gateway Module: Make sure the various ground connections are clean and that the switched ignition line goes hot (~12V) when you key the car on - that’s the minimum the gateway needs to power up. Let us know what you find!

 

[Steve-Indy]

Not laughing here. I will admit that I have learned several "Viper lessons"
the hard way as well.

I may have missed it in your post, but I am unsure of the model year...nice
to know same...especially when choosing Dodge scan tool.

You said: "Getting a little stressed at this point cause its
running pretty hot"

My wild-Asp-guess is that you have fried your O2 sensor wires...tripping
ASD.
You MAY also have wiring problems on crank sensor, etc. If you find it's
"programming" and find no damage, I will be surprised but HAPPY for you
!!


I am glad no one died of carbon monoxide poisoning and that car/building
did not catch fire!!

We also store our Vipers for the winter...and they do quite well with Mobil
1 oil (backed up with untold numbers of oil analysis reports)....no problems with 6
month down time., and they are NEVER started/run unless I can get 30-45 minutes
on each one,reaching full water and oil temps.

Best of luck...and, please keep us posted.

 

[Twister]

Wow if this were a movie I would have to Imagine Uncle Buck (John Candy) going through the ordeal. Of course he wouldnt have thought of pulling the fuse and just cooked 18 inch pancakes on the now scorching hood and sent an envelope with a nickel in it to his local dodge rep, with a note saying find a rat.

 

[Drew]

All four gauges down usually means the gateway is offline… (But if the voltmeter is still working it’s something else)
Off hand cant remember where the volt meter is but if its one of the verticle gauges its not working
Make sure the gateway (which is under the driver’s seat) is plugged in and has power.
I have a look at that. seat has never been moved

There is some concern that if you aren’t getting ASD's powering up, fuel pump priming - it's possible that the PCM was damaged when the pump relay was yanked: The fuel pump relay also supplies the PCM power. Now if the fuel pump is activating then the PCM is up and running and the lack of start is something else.Fuel pump "fuse" was pulled but all the same.

Are any fuses currently pulled or is the car all assembled right now?
All fuses have been checked and all relays are seated.

You really going to need to get a StarScan on the car to see what modules are on-line and which aren’t. (Any Dodge dealer should have one, even that far north). The StarScan should be able to indicate exactly which modules are off line (even if the gateway is down). Let us know any / all codes present.
star scan has been put on the car and will not comunicate
So here is what can we know so far:

If Fuel Pump Priming = Good PCMno fuel pump isnt energizing
If ASD Relays Powering Up = Good PCMonly relay that powers up is the blower when you push the start button
If No Gauges at all = Gateway module offlineagree
If Voltmeter working but not others = Gateway okay but possibly the PCM is offline or the CAN lines damaged between gateway and PCM (this, only if the pump is priming and still no gauges)
Cranking by jumping at fuse box = Good starterand battery

Here is the diagram for the Gateway Module: Make sure the various ground connections are clean and that the switched ignition line goes hot (~12V) when you key the car on - that’s the minimum the gateway needs to power up. Let us know what you find!this is a brand new 2010 with 255km on it

I really appreciate the time you have taken to help me with this issue

 

[Drew]

Not laughing here. I will admit that I have learned several "Viper lessons"
the hard way as well.

I may have missed it in your post, but I am unsure of the model year...nice
to know same...especially when choosing Dodge scan tool.2010 brand new with 255 km on it

You said: "Getting a little stressed at this point cause its
running pretty hot"ideling for 1 hour in a 2500 square foot fish bowl. i left the double glass doors open 15 feet away from the car with the hood open and the ambient was -10c

My wild-Asp-guess is that you have fried your O2 sensor wires...tripping
ASD. got hot, but im thinking not that hot
You MAY also have wiring problems on crank sensor, etc. If you find it's
"programming" and find no damage, I will be surprised but HAPPY for you
!!


I am glad no one died of carbon monoxide poisoning and that car/building
did not catch fire!!unoccupied space with 50 square feet of free air opening

We also store our Vipers for the winter...and they do quite well with Mobil
1 oil (backed up with untold numbers of oil analysis reports)....no problems with 6
month down time., and they are NEVER started/run unless I can get 30-45 minutes
on each one,reaching full water and oil temps. good to know, once this issue is resolved i gaurantee it wont happen again

Best of luck...and, please keep us posted.

Thank you, may you and your family have a wonderful time this holiday

 

[Viper Parts of America]

I really appreciate the time you have taken to help me with this issue

You won't get rid of us that easily! Still checking a few other options for you...

 

[Steve-Indy]

I wish I lived closer...would make a housecall with a wiTECH.

By the way, you may need to check fuse that handles DLC (OBD II post)...since you said StarSCAN would not communicate.

I can pull up the 09 Service Manual CD for you if you something specific...as there still is no 2010 Manual/CD !!!

 

[Steve-Indy]

Seems to me that DLC and power outlet (or maybe cig. lighter) share same fuse. Carefully look at (or replace) these 20 amp fuses and try sscan tool again.

1	40 Amp Green	—	Blower Motor
2	40 Amp Green	—	Anti-Lock Brakes (ABS) Pump Feed/Starter
3	30 Amp Pink	—	Body Control Module (BCM) - Battery Feed
4	20 Amp Blue	—	Amplifier
5	30 Amp Pink	—	Ignition Switch Run/Accessory Feed - Windows/Adjustable Pedals
6	40 Amp Green	—	Body Control Module (BCM) - Battery Feed
7	30 Amp Pink	—	Anti-Lock Brakes (ABS) Module
8	30 Amp Pink	—	Ignition Switch Run/Accessory Feed
9	40 Amp Green	—	Headlights
10	30 Amp Pink	—	Ignition Switch Run Feed
11	—	20 Amp Yellow	Auto Shutdown Relay (ASD)
12	—	20 Amp Yellow	Cigar Lighter
13	—	15 Amp Blue	Hazard Flasher
14	—	20 Amp Yellow	Auto Shutdown Relay (ASD)
15	—	25 Amp Clear	Rear Window Defogger (EBL)
16, 17	—	20 Amp Yellow	Power Outlet
18	—	15 Amp Blue	Ignition Off Draw (IOD)
19	—	15 Amp Blue	Horn
20	—	15 Amp Blue	Air Conditioning (A/C) Clutch Relay
21	—	15 Amp Blue	Stop Light Switch
22	—	25 Amp Clear	Fuel Pump/Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
23, 24	—	10 Amp Red	Airbag
60, 61	—	15 Amp Blue	Ignition Run/Start Relay Feed
62, 63	—	15 Amp Blue	Gauges
5, 6	—	10 Amp Red	Airbag
7, 8	—	20 Amp Yellow	Wiper Switch
9, 10	—	20 Amp Yellow	Left HID Headlight
11, 12	—	20 Amp Yellow	Right HID Headlight

[h=3] Cavity [/h]

[h=3] Cartridge Fuse [/h]

[h=3] Mini Fuse [/h]

[h=3] Description [/h]

Cavity	Description
1	Headlamp
2	ASD 2
3	A/C Compressor Clutch
4	Horn
5	Starter
6	Blower Motor
7	Fuel Pump
8	Rear Window Defogger (EBL)
9	Spare
10	ASD 1
11	Run/ACC

[h=3] Relays [/h]

CAUTION:

When installing the Integrated Power Module cover, it is important to ensure the cover is properly positioned and fully latched. Failure to do so may allow water to get into the Integrated Power Module, and possibly result in a electrical system failure.

CAUTION:

When replacing a blown fuse, it is important to use only a fuse having the correct amperage rating. The use of a fuse with a rating other than indicated may result in a dangerous electrical system overload. If a properly rated fuse continues to blow, it indicates a problem in the circuit that must be corrected.

[h=3]Fuses (Mini-Power Distribution Center)[/h]
A mini-power distribution center is located in the engine compartment on the
passenger's side of the vehicle. This center contains radiator fan control
relays and has two externally-mounted 40 Amp fuses for the radiator fans.

CAUTION:

[h=4][/h] When installing the Mini-Power Distribution Center cover, it is important to ensure the cover is properly positioned and fully latched. Failure to do so may allow water to get into the Power Distribution Center, and possibly result in an electrical system failure.

 

[Drew]

You won't get rid of us that easily! Still checking a few other options for you...

dont wanna get rid of ya, just wanted to let you know i really appreciate the help during this busy time of year. again just wanna say thanks

 

[Viper Parts of America]

Our pleasure. We are working with the gurus at SRT, including some of the electrical specialists that know the Viper as well as anybody. We generally work weekends and they occasionally pop in as well. Hopefully the concerted effort from the VCA will help get you back on the road (or in the garage) in no time!

 

[Steve-Indy]

Would look closely (replace) at fuse B 12

 

[ViperGeorge]

Seems to me that you may have locked up the PCM. Vipers don't take well to being shut down from pulling fuses. This is why there is no good way to install a kill switch for racing. They tend to lock up the PCM if they kill the power. My kill switch on my ACR which was installed by Tomball only disconnects the battery but won't kill the engine. An SRT engineer I know told me that this is typically the way the kill switch is installed to avoid locking up the PCM. Good luck!

 

[agdetail]

did you buy your viper from willowbrook? only place i know that sells new vipers in bc

 

[Wiretech]

That's true Vehicles don't like fuses pulled when running. When circuits go dead current tends to find different sources for power, it may have blown other fuses. I would start with a test light and check every single fuse, probe the top of the fuse there are 2 contacts there , with the ignition on row down the window. good luck.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Followup ???

 

[pteam]

Also as Steve-Indy said, your car can sit all winter without having to run it. Just keep it on a battery tender and do an oil change and rotate tires etc. Just dont start it up every month and only let it run for 10 minutes, thats even worse on an engine.

I would check every fuse first with a fuse tester. Or just goto walmart and buy a big bulk fuse pack and replace all fuses. Just make sure to be extra careful when your replacing alot of fuses to put the right amp fuses in right place when you replace alot of them don't get careless and miss one. Sometimes fuses "test" ok but part of a fuse is bad in one spot or another or melted in one spot. This is an expensive viper and $50 worth of fuses might be worth it.

But honestly you could be looking at a new computer or expensive electrical problems.

 

[Drew]

update. Gone through all fuses and relays with a test light. Power in the fuse box is not an issue. Gone through door unlock with key, battery disconnect, and a few other suggestions with the FOB. Was told to try turning key on-off-on-off-on and faults should be seen in the speedo digital read out. This doesn't happen. None of the handheld diagnostic tools will connect(communicate) with the car computers. We've checked connections in the engine bay, under the seat etc.
I pulled a fuse while the car was running. There is nothing wrong with the fuse I pulled but I changed it anyways. I'm of the opinion something has happened the the PCM. (weather the factory smoke has been let out or it is locked up) I find it odd that all the vertical gauges stay limp(indicator stays still on the left hand side of the gauge on all four gauges) the red LED on all four gauges all illuminate and stay illuminated except for the 2nd from the top. It comes on initially turns off for 10 seconds and comes back on. When the start button is pushed the motor doesn't turn over, the blower relay clicks, all dashboard lights go off, and the time display on the radio goes blank. Voltage at the fuse panel is measure at 13.4 volts, yet the battery gauge shows no voltage(limp needle to the left)
I think I'm just going to leave it till spring and have it towed to the dealership where they can hook a laptop up to it and see if it will communicate.
Thanks for everyone's input, ill update what the final fix was once known.
Happy Holidays to you and your loved ones.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Thanks, Drew...I'm sure everyone will keep thinking about this.

Happy Holidays to You and Yours !!

 

[A1998]

I have been following this post also with interest and it will be interesting to see what the result is. BUT, in the meantime, what is the solution on how to shut the car off properly if this happens to someone else??

 

[ALPINEX]

I'm not expert at all on Viper electronics, but I know my way around some Chrysler products. In my efforts to get my Ram into the 11's I've dealt with my fair share of electrical problems. At one point I somehow managed to corrupt a tune when transferring it from my computer to the truck, without realizing. Needless to say the truck wouldn't start or do anything, but the gauges along with the rest of the electronics performed as you state, and the engine would turn over when the starter was jumped. I replaced ignition modules, fuses out the *****, batteries the whole 9 to find the problem. I called SCT and explained my problem, basically the only options were to allow them to try a reset with SCT software, if that didn't work, re flashing the computer back to stock was the only option. Luckily SCT was able to get the corrupt file off of the truck. It may however be worth it to you, to try the reflash if the Viper PCM is similar to other Chrysler units. It's a bit pricey and unless you know a super cool mechanic usually only the dealer is able to do it, but in the event all else fails, I believe this will work.

 

[Drew]

ALPINEX, I believe this is there plan once its towed to the shop in the spring.

 

[hoseclamp]

I have been following this post also with interest and it will be interesting to see what the result is. BUT, in the meantime, what is the solution on how to shut the car off properly if this happens to someone else??

Well thier may be a few options, if not too warm yet, pulling plug wires will work, disconnecting tps should create confusion/stumble followed by a stall, plugging air box intake will starve engine. I did something similar years back, coat hanger got me in, I always leave a window open now

 

[NI-KA]

Oh man !

I did something similar at the track and locked my keys in the car.

Fortunately, it wasn't running and the track had a set of tools for getting into a locked car. I was also lucky in that one of my fellow viper track rats was very good at getting into locked cars !

 

[ROCKET62]

Bummer - Good luck getting it back up and running. I also thought ASD system as the symptoms sound eerily similar to when I blew an ASD fuse. My second guess was alarm system, but it sounds like you've done the right things to reset it.

 

[Viper Parts of America]

In chatting with the electronic gurus in SRT engineering, they agreed it is best to let the dealer handle it at this point. The likely culprits are the gateway module or the PCM, and they are leaning toward the PCM. The voltmeter not working worries them that the gateway may be unhappy as well, but with modules you want to approach them one at a time.

Keep in mind that a PCM replacement will require relearning of pedal / throttle / tooth error correction / VIN and mileage programming before it will run correctly. But the gauges should come right up even before any programming is done which will let the repair bay know they are on the right path.

Keep us posted!