Considering selling the Viper for a Ford GT. Opinions
- Thread starter Rizzo
- Start date
TowDawg
Enthusiast
He said earlier he could get this one for considerably less than the 120k he's seen them going for. I would assume he is talking 100k or less. For that kind of money, I would be all over it as long as an experienced FGT shop said the repairs were done correctly.
kblake905
Viper Owner
My views are usually in far left field so with that in mind here goes
I believe there will be a point in time where original vs rebuilt will be a very, very narrow gap - but still a gap. Look at the 40-60 year old American cars - "frame off" restorations bring huge money, sometimes more than the all original cars. So what is the difference between a body panel that was replaced because of collision damage versus one that was replaced from rust. I look at heavily restored cars no different than salvage cars. 2 thoughts: 1) did they repair the car correctly, will it fly apart at speed? 2) did they repair all the rust, find all the rust, will the car crack in half at speed?
As far as value (money) I look at it the same as you, a percentage. Yes the guy in Lufkin, TX is around $120k, $30k under. If you get one for less than that from a reputable rebuilder - what's the risk? Again the guy in Lufkin is still getting $120k for his. So long as your expectations are reasonable regarding appreciation or resale value then you will be a-ok. A $120k GT purchased today and sold for $130k in 2+ years is still a great deal! So long as you don't expect $175k for it in 2 years like the other ones.
QUOTE]I agree with this if you know the car and are confident it was repaired with no "shortcuts". A "rebuilt" title in Ontario has to have a structural safety certificate, to pass this the car frame is measured and compared to specs and the car has a four wheel alignment done.
If you are buying it to drive and enjoy, I beleive 5 to 10 years down the road it will be priced close to a clear title viper that has also been driven and enjoyed and accululated all the normal "wear and tear", ie: not a garage queen!
Phun70
VCA Venom Member
Darbgnik
Enthusiast
Okay so it's been days now. I'm dyin to know how much less than 120 you can get it for. And is it near you? And.........
Rizzo
Enthusiast
Okay so it's been days now. I'm dyin to know how much less than 120 you can get it for. And is it near you? And.........
Not going public with the price out of respect to the seller. I'm not sure if it's public knowledge yet that its for sale. It's not too far from me. Still trying to decide if I want to pull the pin or pull the chute....LOL.
lagalaxy13
Viper Owner
Same thing can happen with a car that doesn't have the "Salavaged" title. You never know with a used car. I've owned cars with salvaged titles. (not 100k cars but daily drivers) and in all cases if there done right you would never know, except for the 20% discount on price. I've also owned older cars that you can tell have been hit etc without a bip on the title. These are normally fixed by some guy in his garage and you can tell. If a good shop does the repairs no one will ever know & you can drive it like normal. Just when you sell it will be worth less but you spent less to begin with.
OP says in his first post that the car will be fixed by the GT Guys and the GT Guys are the best guys in the country to work on the GT. Why so? They were employees of Ford and were assigned to work on the GT development project, in other words, they helped create the GT in the first place. They have worked on hundreds of GT and have developed bumper delete kits to doing all kinds of special fabrications for the car. Normally I wouldn't go for a salvage car, but if the price is right and if fixed by the GT Guys, I'd say go for it. Now priced right meaning the finished cost will have to be at least 30% under a comparable clean title car.
FastZilla
Enthusiast
Pull the PIN - quit being a pansy. It's going to be a good car with the right repair credentials. You will probably not loose money on the car if you sale down the road. You will probably not make much either, but 0% depreciation - are you kidding me - buy it. Post pics. Nobody but you will know it's a salvage car unless you bring your title to the car shows.
...now who's selling it - PM me their contact info
...now who's selling it - PM me their contact info
1994viper
Enthusiast
Show the owner all the negative posts on here, and offer him 1/2 price. I would buy one if the price was right, and the car was inspected to be ok. Also, ask for the pictures of the damage. I think it might be mandatory for the car to be photographed before being rebuild . At least thats what I heard here, in order to get a new title from DMV.
I would buy one if the price was right, and the car was inspected to be ok. Also, ask for the pictures of the damage. I think it might be mandatory for the car to be photographed before being rebuild . At least thats what I heard here, in order to get a new title from DMV.My views are usually in far left field so with that in mind here goes
I believe there will be a point in time where original vs rebuilt will be a very, very narrow gap - but still a gap. Look at the 40-60 year old American cars - "frame off" restorations bring huge money, sometimes more than the all original cars. So what is the difference between a body panel that was replaced because of collision damage versus one that was replaced from rust. I look at heavily restored cars no different than salvage cars. 2 thoughts: 1) did they repair the car correctly, will it fly apart at speed? 2) did they repair all the rust, find all the rust, will the car crack in half at speed?
As far as value (money) I look at it the same as you, a percentage. Yes the guy in Lufkin, TX is around $120k, $30k under. If you get one for less than that from a reputable rebuilder - what's the risk? Again the guy in Lufkin is still getting $120k for his. So long as your expectations are reasonable regarding appreciation or resale value then you will be a-ok. A $120k GT purchased today and sold for $130k in 2+ years is still a great deal! So long as you don't expect $175k for it in 2 years like the other ones.
QUOTE]I agree with this if you know the car and are confident it was repaired with no "shortcuts". A "rebuilt" title in Ontario has to have a structural safety certificate, to pass this the car frame is measured and compared to specs and the car has a four wheel alignment done.
If you are buying it to drive and enjoy, I beleive 5 to 10 years down the road it will be priced close to a clear title viper that has also been driven and enjoyed and accululated all the normal "wear and tear", ie: not a garage queen!
Never Happen... Those days are gone. So yes, I agree... There are DEFINATELY cars out there that have been wrecked and rebuilt, that you'll see on Barrett-Jackson bring crazy money. (i.e. Mid-Year vettes,Chevelles,Camaros,etc). The difference between that time peiod and now is. None of that was documented back then. There is no way to prove a car was (or was not, for that matter), wrecked... Personally, I think probably 80-90% of ALL mid-year vettes HAVE BEEN in accident(s). So it represents nearly the entire market. But with GT's, its a very small percentage.
IT is now.. Any car after 1984 has a Carfax report, and complete online title info. Which changed the resale market forever..
Salvage title cars are worth their weight in parts, thats about it.
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lagalaxy13
Viper Owner
There is a difference between salavaged titles & rebuilt titles, some of you are confusing this.
I disagree. The last rebuilt car I bought and drove for a year, then sold, I sold for the same price as a non rebuilt one. I had my phone ringing off the hook for this car. Had it sold in less then 24 hours after I posted it. And don't say i wasn't up front with the rebuilt title, it was listed in the ad.
I've bought "clean" cars that are in worst shape then some of the "rebuilt" ones I've had. Used cars have a history no matter what. CarFax is only as good for the the recycled paper in most cases.
I have a good friend that just bought a 08 MB. Something fell and dented his fender. Had shop put a new fender on, guess what now has a "history" report. So you guys are saying that this car is now worth 30% less because it had a ding on it?
Certain things there needs to be piece of mind, he just needs to see what he's comfortable with. If the car is as promised go for it. To pay retail for a "history" car is stupid, but if you can get it for much less go for it. Just know when you sell it your not going to sell it for top book or you might
PAvenomRT/10
Enthusiast
Surely there are examples of restored salvage cars and those not salvaged that are current collectors cars to answer these questions about relative value. Someone please put an end to this chatter.
PAVenomRT/10
PAVenomRT/10
ghengishahn
Viper Owner
I could never buy a vehicle knowing it was once totalled.
Just watch Barrett-Jackson, restored wrecks going for $100,000 all day long.
Darbgnik
Enthusiast
Didn't figure I'd get the price....... how bout that pic? Or color even?
Going to reiterate what many above have said, if it was fixed right there is no reason to be afraid of a salvage car. I'm fixing a 08 Viper vert right now that was side swiped. Once I got all the body panels off there isn't one bit of structural or frame damage. Body panels are so expensive for these cars (from Chrysler which is how most insurance adjusters base there figures) that they write the cars off for very little damage. In my case I'm basically just pulling body panels and reinstalling them (and a few suspension components). I'm sure a FGT would be the same thing, pricey parts and scared insurance companies.
That being said I have seen some horrible rebuilds which is why no matter the car, clean title or rebuilt, you need to do a thorough inspection and have a 3rd party do one. A few words of advice, ask for before pics from before they started repairs and check for frame damage. To me a damaged frame (although it can be repaired) is the hardest part to get back to 100% and the main thing that would deter me from buying a salvage car. Also, don't trust the basic inspection that all cars have to have once they are repaired. In my experience they aren't worth the paper they are written on. If the $$$ savings are significant and you are satisfied with the repairs then I say go for it. Saving 25 - 50 thousand is substantial to most people. Those above that say "don't touch a salvage car with a ten foot pole" probably have enough money that they aren't worried about price anyway. However I would invite those same people to use my hoist, lights, etc etc to examine one of my cars when they are done. I'd bet money they couldn't tell where the car was hurt. Thats the sign of a good rebuild in my opinion.
That being said I have seen some horrible rebuilds which is why no matter the car, clean title or rebuilt, you need to do a thorough inspection and have a 3rd party do one. A few words of advice, ask for before pics from before they started repairs and check for frame damage. To me a damaged frame (although it can be repaired) is the hardest part to get back to 100% and the main thing that would deter me from buying a salvage car. Also, don't trust the basic inspection that all cars have to have once they are repaired. In my experience they aren't worth the paper they are written on. If the $$$ savings are significant and you are satisfied with the repairs then I say go for it. Saving 25 - 50 thousand is substantial to most people. Those above that say "don't touch a salvage car with a ten foot pole" probably have enough money that they aren't worried about price anyway. However I would invite those same people to use my hoist, lights, etc etc to examine one of my cars when they are done. I'd bet money they couldn't tell where the car was hurt. Thats the sign of a good rebuild in my opinion.
FastestBusaAround
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Salvage title - is salvage title, not "rebuilt" title. Show me a "salvage" title original A/C Cobra or Hemi Cuda selling for big money on the block. Could be a perfect car, but with salvage title, it will never be worth the big bucks that a potential high value collectible will be. Given that the FGT is one of the few cars that hasn't really dropped in value since the later models hit the scene a few years back, I'd say it has the potential to become a big $$ collectible...unlike Viper and recent model Vettes, which will never get there and only sink each year in value. Of course - there are those who believe that Vipers will become high value collectible...but that's just wishful thinking. Hell, they couldn't even sell out the 500 that were made for 2010...
I guess it all depends on what you're looking for. A dream toy for less?? or a good investment?
There's some good advice in this thread, so I'll just reiterate what a few already mentioned. Salvage titled often nothing to be scared of if the work is done right, if you're looking for a long-term toy. With that said, being in the market of buying and selling, the reduction has to be substantial to be worth your while. For a car in the 6fig range, a $25k discount is not enough. I would aim more towards at least $35k off a comparable vehicle. We say that rebuilt cars (I get a little mixed up with the terms, because "Salvage" titled cars are issued a "Rebuilt" title once fixed...at least in some regions) should be priced 10-15% above the value of a clean-titled car, in well below average cond and in need of serious repair. Although no rule is set in stone, it might apply here as well. Its title will make it hard to re-sell in the future, regardless of the reduced price (most in the market for a clean GT, that have cash to pay market value, will not consider this as a good alternative to save cash). BUT it is the opportunity to have all the fun, for a lot less. True, if kept long enough, the salvage title will have less of a negative effect on the car's desirability...but we won't see these cars end up like Hemi cudas; gutted/rotted in a field with little more left than a fender tag (which ppl would still pay a premium), so it's quite a different case. 30+yrs from now, I'd say at least 80% of the GTs will still be in a clean, roadworthy state.
Personally, I stay away from vehicle's that don't have a clean title for the simple reason that they are hard to re-sell. Even instances where the car was not damaged, just stripped...people still are reluctant. If it was a car I planned on keeping, I wouldn't care about the title. I just found my friend a rebuilt Diablo. Saved $40k, but understands he's never going to make money off of it. He's happy to be stuck with it though
good luck with everything!
There's some good advice in this thread, so I'll just reiterate what a few already mentioned. Salvage titled often nothing to be scared of if the work is done right, if you're looking for a long-term toy. With that said, being in the market of buying and selling, the reduction has to be substantial to be worth your while. For a car in the 6fig range, a $25k discount is not enough. I would aim more towards at least $35k off a comparable vehicle. We say that rebuilt cars (I get a little mixed up with the terms, because "Salvage" titled cars are issued a "Rebuilt" title once fixed...at least in some regions) should be priced 10-15% above the value of a clean-titled car, in well below average cond and in need of serious repair. Although no rule is set in stone, it might apply here as well. Its title will make it hard to re-sell in the future, regardless of the reduced price (most in the market for a clean GT, that have cash to pay market value, will not consider this as a good alternative to save cash). BUT it is the opportunity to have all the fun, for a lot less. True, if kept long enough, the salvage title will have less of a negative effect on the car's desirability...but we won't see these cars end up like Hemi cudas; gutted/rotted in a field with little more left than a fender tag (which ppl would still pay a premium), so it's quite a different case. 30+yrs from now, I'd say at least 80% of the GTs will still be in a clean, roadworthy state.
Personally, I stay away from vehicle's that don't have a clean title for the simple reason that they are hard to re-sell. Even instances where the car was not damaged, just stripped...people still are reluctant. If it was a car I planned on keeping, I wouldn't care about the title. I just found my friend a rebuilt Diablo. Saved $40k, but understands he's never going to make money off of it. He's happy to be stuck with it though
good luck with everything!
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This is true, I am not sure how it works in Canada but in the US if it is salvage it means it hasn't passed inspections and is not street legal. But if it is a rebuilt title and you can get it for at least 40% off book value then it is a good deal.
I have owned 3 rebuilt cars (srt4,zo6,elise) and currently both my cars are rebuilts (97 GTS and 04 X3[this was stolen and had no damage so I guess it does not count]) But anyways as long as you have a couple different people inspect the car and it drives straight with no issues and you get it for at least 40% of book then take it!
Sandy G
Enthusiast
I think a part of this equation is missing. How long would you keep the GT and how many miles would it have had been put on by you? If it is going to be a long term keeper, and you are going to drive it you probably never get even when you sell it. It you bought a clean title GT and drove it for years and put many miles on it you also would not be in a great resale position. Best case would be if it is a great buy get it and flip it, quick. Take the profit and go! If if is going to be a long term driver and you are going to rack up miles and not worry about it even if it wasn't a money maker but you had your fun! Miles will bring value down big time on a clean or rebuilt GT.
Just gotta be honest for a second...i cant afford 160k for a cherry fgt...but i could maybe swing 100k with a lot of begging to the wife and selling a toy or two....id defiently love to own a fgt that was salvage as long as it drove nice and the inspections said the car was good...a clean fgt that was salvaged would be my only opertunity to ever own such a car...and i would jump on it...the people saying spend the extra 30 or 40k for a clean one...well what can i say you have a lot more money than i do...what i can gurantee is that im not alone and their are more than a few guys who can afford 80k for the shelby kr mustang who would defiently stretch the 20 k to buy a salvage fgt for 100k...
if he buys this car for say 100k it wouldnt surprise me any if he drove it for two years and sold it for 110k..
hes really risking nothing!!!!..go for it...hope its yellow..thats my favorite fgt...
if he buys this car for say 100k it wouldnt surprise me any if he drove it for two years and sold it for 110k..
hes really risking nothing!!!!..go for it...hope its yellow..thats my favorite fgt...
Les Quam
Enthusiast
I presently own both an 08 Viper and 06 FGT and bought both new. I wouldn't sell a Viper for a FGT. As an owner of both it's my opinion the Viper simply outperforms the FGT in every respect except that of looks. While cosmetics are always subjective the FGT is arguably one of the most beautiful cars ever built. But from my experience Ford never had a chance to fully sort out the FGT for the street and especially for weekend track days given its short life span?
Having said that who is to say in 25 years that the FGT is any better looking or considered to be more iconic than a second generation Viper? Park a second generation GTS next to a FGT and forget for a moment HP and limited build runs etc etc and just review the styling. The second gen GTS's are as beautiful a car as ever built I think? Truly iconic a classic.
I love my FGT and I have had several offers from people interested in buying it and won't sell it, but car for car the Viper in my humble opinion is superior by a wide margin.
Having said that who is to say in 25 years that the FGT is any better looking or considered to be more iconic than a second generation Viper? Park a second generation GTS next to a FGT and forget for a moment HP and limited build runs etc etc and just review the styling. The second gen GTS's are as beautiful a car as ever built I think? Truly iconic a classic.
I love my FGT and I have had several offers from people interested in buying it and won't sell it, but car for car the Viper in my humble opinion is superior by a wide margin.
FastestBusaAround
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Most if not all FGT/Viper owners don't share your opinion, in fact quite the contrary from everything I've read, but then, you have both and are in a position to at least voice your opinion from an actual standpoint.
Although I wouldn't think the Viper would stack up favorably against a GT (they're apples and oranges really), when someone who owns them both says the Viper is the one to hold onto.....that opens my ears. I honestly don't know of anyone who has owned them simultaneously. Usually they "graduate" up to a GT, falling in love with their crisp handling and surprisingly civil road manners, eventually forgetting about the obnoxious Dodge they gave up. But maybe if they had both cars at once, they could be reminded just how fun the Viper is??
There's nothing crisp or civil about Vipers, but then again, that's why I love 'em.
There's nothing crisp or civil about Vipers, but then again, that's why I love 'em.
TrackAire
Enthusiast
Been considering a Ford GT in addition to my Viper. Two of my friends in Sac have them, one over 800 rwhp and the other one with a pulley and tune. Whenever we go out and park the Fords, they do draw attention. If I buy the car it will just be a play car and something to cruise in (no tracking). But, the one problem I've found with the Ford GT lack is of storage space. No room for luggage, etc...I can fit a lot more stuff in my Viper.
It's tough to cruise with the wife on a 3 or 4 day weekend and not have room for a couple of overnight bags....God forbid if she buys something to bring back home
Since driving my car to and from VOI 11, I actually really fell in love with the beast. I can honestly say that I don't ever want to sell it and am really looking forward to what the next generation Viper has to offer. Before the VOI drive the Ford GT was on my must have list...now, not so much. Having been in Ford GTs, I don't feel that my Viper is anywhere near as crude or rough to drive...actually it feels smoother over rough roads than the lowered Ford GTs.
For $150k, I have a LOT of car options. Not that I don't want a Ford GT, but other options are more useful for driving long distances with the wife, comfort, storage space, etc.
Right now, if I pull the trigger for another "exotic" type car, I think it would be for a 2009 or 2010 Bentley GT Speed or the Supersport version. Looked at them at the SF dealer this last weekend...still under warranty with unlimited miles. With over 600 hp and AWD, it would leave just about any Viper, ZR1 or Ford GT at the line until about 100 mph in wet conditions.
So, the Ford GT is still on my list to have, but I'm not ever going to sell my Viper just to get one.
Good luck with your choice, either way you'll have a cool ride.
Cheers,
George
It's tough to cruise with the wife on a 3 or 4 day weekend and not have room for a couple of overnight bags....God forbid if she buys something to bring back home
Since driving my car to and from VOI 11, I actually really fell in love with the beast. I can honestly say that I don't ever want to sell it and am really looking forward to what the next generation Viper has to offer. Before the VOI drive the Ford GT was on my must have list...now, not so much. Having been in Ford GTs, I don't feel that my Viper is anywhere near as crude or rough to drive...actually it feels smoother over rough roads than the lowered Ford GTs.
For $150k, I have a LOT of car options. Not that I don't want a Ford GT, but other options are more useful for driving long distances with the wife, comfort, storage space, etc.
Right now, if I pull the trigger for another "exotic" type car, I think it would be for a 2009 or 2010 Bentley GT Speed or the Supersport version. Looked at them at the SF dealer this last weekend...still under warranty with unlimited miles. With over 600 hp and AWD, it would leave just about any Viper, ZR1 or Ford GT at the line until about 100 mph in wet conditions.
So, the Ford GT is still on my list to have, but I'm not ever going to sell my Viper just to get one.
Good luck with your choice, either way you'll have a cool ride.
Cheers,
George
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Sir, With all due respect, I disagree with the statement about the Beautiful Bently over 600 h.p. outrunning ANY 600 h.p. Viper, ZR1 or FGT to 100 mph at all. UNLESS, this is a trick statement where you said in wet conditions, which I can't picture ANY of our cars owners to be racing on wet roads, let alone driving them on wet roads unless they got caught in the rain by accident. Of course the all wheel drive anything would win that race but who races in those conditions on the street? I am a poor guy, will NEVER be able to buy a Bently to find out, but that just got my attention, Must be nice to be able to afford to buy one but I am doing good to just be a VERY PROUD VIPER OWNER....just rambling on with nothing to do this rainy morning here in Florida, Buy the Bently, They to me are AWESOME, Beautiful cars.I am sure you and your wife will LOVE traveling in that. Happy Vipering.....Roy
I presently own both an 08 Viper and 06 FGT and bought both new. I wouldn't sell a Viper for a FGT. As an owner of both it's my opinion the Viper simply outperforms the FGT in every respect except that of looks. While cosmetics are always subjective the FGT is arguably one of the most beautiful cars ever built. But from my experience Ford never had a chance to fully sort out the FGT for the street and especially for weekend track days given its short life span?
Having said that who is to say in 25 years that the FGT is any better looking or considered to be more iconic than a second generation Viper? Park a second generation GTS next to a FGT and forget for a moment HP and limited build runs etc etc and just review the styling. The second gen GTS's are as beautiful a car as ever built I think? Truly iconic a classic.
I love my FGT and I have had several offers from people interested in buying it and won't sell it, but car for car the Viper in my humble opinion is superior by a wide margin.
I also own both a FGT and an ACR, both purchased new but I have to disagree that the Viper performs a better than the FGT. I have a little track experience with both and would give the ACR a slight advantage on certain tracks but an unmodded GT definitely ride better (a lot less bouncy) and smoother on the road and would start walking the ACR after 100 MPH. When comparing unmod GT vs. unmod Viper or modded GT vs. modded Viper with the same $ spent, the GT being so mod friendly would win hands down. If you have not done anything to the GT, you owe it to yourself to get a ride in one with a larger Whipple supercharger/tune/exhaust and Motons or Penskes (<$20K total), and one with a proper alignment, then judge for yourself which other cars can match or even come close to the performance of the GT.
TrackAire
Enthusiast
Sir, With all due respect, I disagree with the statement about the Beautiful Bently over 600 h.p. outrunning ANY 600 h.p. Viper, ZR1 or FGT to 100 mph at all. UNLESS, this is a trick statement where you said in wet conditions, which I can't picture ANY of our cars owners to be racing on wet roads, let alone driving them on wet roads unless they got caught in the rain by accident. Of course the all wheel drive anything would win that race but who races in those conditions on the street? I am a poor guy, will NEVER be able to buy a Bently to find out, but that just got my attention, Must be nice to be able to afford to buy one but I am doing good to just be a VERY PROUD VIPER OWNER....just rambling on with nothing to do this rainy morning here in Florida, Buy the Bently, They to me are AWESOME, Beautiful cars.I am sure you and your wife will LOVE traveling in that. Happy Vipering.....Roy
You are correct that most 600 hp exotics will walk away from the Bentley GT Supersport in dry and most importantly perfect launch conditions. I don't see me buying a Bentley to street race other cars, but on normal street conditions, from a standstill the Bentley Supersport with an average driver will destroy most rear wheel drive supercars with average drivers on a hard launch.
The reality is very few people that own rear wheel drive high h.p. exotics can really launch them at there full potential. Street conditions are so varied, that what launch technique worked two blocks ago won't work at the next stoplight.
Now, throw in a slightly damp or dirty or dusty or less than perfect street surface and a Bentley Supersport will beat most 700 hp rear wheel drive exotics to 100 mph. But, just about any 600 hp awd car will too (Audi R8, Nissan GTR, etc). Biggest down fall performance-wise of the Bently GT is its enormous weight.
The one thing I like about the Bentley is it's kinda plain and not very flashy to the average guy. Most people would walk right by it and not notice it parked next to other sedans. Park a Ford GT in a lot and expect a crowd to constantly notice it...they are attention magnets.
I guess my opinion is I wouldn't sell a Gen 4 to get a Ford GT for the performance advantage or looks advantage. Looks, style, racing history, etc is personal taste that only Rizzo can decide on and what's important to him.
Like I said before, do I want a Ford GT, yes....but not at the expense of giving up my Gen 4.
Whichever direction Rizzo goes, he'll have a very cool car regardless
Cheers,
George
