Do 3.55 gears really lower indicated HP?

costanZo

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Nicely said and similar to what I've been saying. I'd rather have more power than traction, than more traction than power.

Also, if you don't like that extra shift with 3.55's etc why did you buy a Viper? There are plenty of cars with automatics that go fast too.

I understand the higher the gear set number(3.73), the more power your car is going to have acceleration wise, but won't you lose top end power as a result? I would imagine, this wouldn't matter if you're not tracking your car trying to achieve high top speeds, but was just curious.
 

Vipuronr

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Talkin' to me, Dave...I suppose! No, don't mind the extra shift, just undecided if I really want to go through the trouble. Sounds like the 3.33 gears would be nice, but then again, is that a large enough change over stock 3.07 to justify the cost.

We're all in different life situations, some married, some with kids, some single...for me, modding my RT is just lower on the priority list. I've got to choose what I do carefully, that's all.
 

Black Moon

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this issue has been beat to death. anything that is added after the motor cannot possibly affect horsepower only the way it's put to the ground. Make the change and go enjoy the new car feeling. If you want a really fast drag car put in an automatic.
 

Black Moon

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Talkin' to me, Dave...I suppose! No, don't mind the extra shift, just undecided if I really want to go through the trouble. Sounds like the 3.33 gears would be nice, but then again, is that a large enough change over stock 3.07 to justify the cost.

We're all in different life situations, some married, some with kids, some single...for me, modding my RT is just lower on the priority list. I've got to choose what I do carefully, that's all.

Not enough of a change in my opinion especially with two over drive gears. Go 355
 

Black Moon

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I understand the higher the gear set number(3.73), the more power your car is going to have acceleration wise, but won't you lose top end power as a result? I would imagine, this wouldn't matter if you're not tracking your car trying to achieve high top speeds, but was just curious.

Not top end power but speed. It will actually feel stronger up top than the stock gear.
 

Vipuronr

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Makes sense! I'll see if I can find someone in my area who already made the change...first one I can think of is Tony because of all the motor work he recent did.

Tony?

By the way, anyone have a sense of what the "all in" cost would be to change gears...including gears (around $400 from Jon)? What is an estimate of hours start to finish?

Thanks!
 

costanZo

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Makes sense! I'll see if I can find someone in my area who already made the change...first one I can think of is Tony because of all the motor work he recent did.

Tony?

By the way, anyone have a sense of what the "all in" cost would be to change gears...including gears (around $400 from Jon)? What is an estimate of hours start to finish?

Thanks!

$400 for Ratio Ring and Pinion Gearset, plus $200 for the Speedo Adjustment Unit. If you do all of that from JonB's site I believe it would cost around $1000-$1200 with labor when all is said and done. That also depends on who you take it too and how much they charge per hour of course.
 

costanZo

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Not top end power but speed. It will actually feel stronger up top than the stock gear.

I guess I worded that wrong, my bad. Yes, I meant wouldn't you lose top speed changing gears? From everything I've read the 96 GTS ranges around 185-192mph. Not that I would ever go that fast on the road lol, but out of curiosity, how much would that get lowered as a result to any of the aftermarket gear sets? Such as 3.33, 3.45, 3.55, 3.73 etc., considering stock is 3.07.
 

Vipuronr

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Thanks for the numbers! As far as labor costs, I only take my car to Chuck and he is always more than fair in how he prices things!

So, here are the four things I've been considering. They seem to be around the same cost:

- Harland Sharpe 1.7 rr's
- Change in gear ratio
- Adding the Snake Oyl Mopar Wing (made from same molds and material as original).

Two are performance mods and one is strickly for looks. Not sold on the idea of drilling holes in my trunk, so this one is kinda iffy and I don't like the other wing.

The gear change will impact how quick the car feels and the rr's will add a little hp, but make the car sound more aggressive via the slight increase in lift.

Choices, choices....just not there yet!:dunno:
 

costanZo

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No prob, i was told those numbers when I was configuring and considering new gears too, so they should be somewhat accurate if anyone else wants to chime in?

Out of all the mods I'm doing this summer, I'm most looking forward to the AR Headers/Cats and Rockers. Should really add some power and produce an even better sound with my already 708 cam :)

Thanks for the numbers! As far as labor costs, I only take my car to Chuck and he is always more than fair in how he prices things!

So, here are the four things I've been considering. They seem to be around the same cost:

- Harland Sharpe 1.7 rr's
- Change in gear ratio
- Adding the Snake Oyl Mopar Wing (made from same molds and material as original).

Two are performance mods and one is strickly for looks. Not sold on the idea of drilling holes in my trunk, so this one is kinda iffy and I don't like the other wing.

The gear change will impact how quick the car feels and the rr's will add a little hp, but make the car sound more aggressive via the slight increase in lift.

Choices, choices....just not there yet!:dunno:
 

musclenutz

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When i first bought my gen 1,i couldn't stand the stock gears. I would **** and buck at almost every take off. I put 3:55's in and now it is so much better . Of course i was new to the Viper back then.I don't know if it makes much difference in 1/4 mile times because i haven't ever tried.I do know it feels faster and is much more fun to drive now. I also installed a BM Short shifter and like that as well. I have no such problem with my gen 2 .It is very easy to shift without any jerking and bucking from take off. In general from my past experience with other cars,gearing does make a lot of difference. It depends on what you are wanting out of your car.
 

Vipuronr

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Cool and that's why I'm considering. Back in the day (way back) I had an automatic (yeah auto) GTO, which was pretty quick with headers and some ignition work. Decided to do 3.93 gears and the car was awesome out of the hole. So I get the impact of gear change....

Also, my Roe hi-flow cats were just installed at Chuck's place, just have to go pick it up...hoping the rain/snow crap holds off long enough to get the car home!

I have thought about adding headers, but did find out that the '98 was the first year that Viper moved to tube headers. I know they're not as good as a good after-market header, but still better than the previous header.
 

ViperTony

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Makes sense! I'll see if I can find someone in my area who already made the change...first one I can think of is Tony because of all the motor work he recent did.

Tony?

Thanks!

No gears here, still using stock gearset. With the heads/cam work I did....3:55's would be unbearable for me now. Would do them if running stock.
 

SquadX

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I guess I worded that wrong, my bad. Yes, I meant wouldn't you lose top speed changing gears? From everything I've read the 96 GTS ranges around 185-192mph. Not that I would ever go that fast on the road lol, but out of curiosity, how much would that get lowered as a result to any of the aftermarket gear sets? Such as 3.33, 3.45, 3.55, 3.73 etc., considering stock is 3.07.


Yes, you will lose top end and mphs in each gear, thats why Im considering going back to stock or lesser. In 5th gear at 5800, Im maybe 150mph. When I had stock gears i could do high 130s in 4th and in 5th at 150 I had plenty of rpm range to go.

Plus side is 5th feels strong as s#@% and is a gear I stay in about 80% of driving now because it pulls so well (but Im making nore then stock).
 

ZYellow01RT

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Great discussion. After reading all of these posts, have decided to go with the 3.55's, to replace the stock ones. Eddie Martin is putting them in as we speak.

Can't wait for a kick-ass experience! :2tu:
 

Toma

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Ahhhh, fun stuff. Dyno games ;)

Gears do not actually affect power. They will multiply torque, which is why "Rear Wheel Torque" is always quoted wrong, but that's a different issue, so I digress lol.

What is REALLY happening is that todays dyno tests are mainly done as a "sweep". Ie, the car accelerates the rollers.

Since the rate at which you accelerate a rotating mass is proportional to power, the faster you accelerate something (ie, your wheels, tranny, driveshaft, gear set), the more power you "use" doing so. Soooo, the faster you are accelerating (due to gears), the more power you "used" before it hits the rollers (ie, used more power to accelerate your entire drivetrain).

Now, dyno's "know" this, and most have some sort of "inertia compensation". Since output it not really decreased, they try and add in some power in the software to compensate so that you get the same power whether you have 3.07's or 3.55's.

This is a best guess since they dont know what car is on the dyno. Inertia change of the rollers is of course factored into the power output calculation, and their mass and 'inertia' is precisely known.

A correctly calibrated dyno for THAT particular car SHOULD show the same power whether you do the pull in 2nd, 3rd or fourth gear, but no one does this.

If the dyno shows MORE power in say fourth than in third, the inertia "value" is too low. If it show more power in third than in fourth, this inertia "value" is too high. It is JUST right when they both result in the same power.

But this is a tremendous pain in the ass, and dynos are TUNING tools.... we don;t race dynos ;) SO no one bothers, and most operators probably have no clue how to do this.

To 'cheat', I frankly use a standard ramp rate.... ie, on my dyno, I simply tell the dyno to allow the motor to accelerate at 500rpm/sec as an example. In this case, a gear change will show no significant change in power output since the acceleration rate of the run is the same.

Now, if you want the "real" power that car is making? Set the load type dyno to hold STEADY your peak hp rpm so it takes losses to inertia out of the equation, and let the load cell MEASURE your output.
 

dave6666

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^^^ Nice post.

And Zee... What you mean is, you can't wait for that 500 mile break-in to end right?

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Toma

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^^^ Nice post.

....
Thanks.... If you have never seen this, this also blows some peoples minds away....

Why Dynojets read high, and the Dynojet "Fudge".

From: The Story Behind the Dynojet Chassis Dyno - The Truth Meter - Hot Rod Magazine

One of the biggest headaches of Dynojet's go-it-alone chassis-dyno project was figuring out how to assign meaningful power numbers in the face of unknown inertia from the moving parts of the hundreds or thousands of engine, drivetrain, and tire combinations. Wrestling to fully understand inertia and powertrain losses, Dobeck and his team quickly realized that the standard physics formula of weight, time, and distance for converting acceleration into horsepower simply didn't work-the derived number was always lower than accepted numbers. They poured on resources and burned up time and money investigating it, but no matter what they did, the math never added up.

Dynojet's final number-fudge was arbitrarily based on a number from the most powerful road-going motorcycle of the time, the '85 1,200cc Yamaha VMax. The VMax had 145 advertised factory horsepower, which was far above the raw 90hp number spit out by the formula. Meanwhile, existing aftermarket torque-cell engine dynamometers delivered numbers that clustered around 120. Always a pragmatist, Dobeck finally ordered his Chief Engineer to doctor the math so that the Dynojet 100 measured 120 hp for a stock VMax. And that was that: For once and forever, the power of everything else in the world would be relative to the '85 Yamaha VMax and a fudged imaginary number. Dobeck's engineering staff was dismayed by the decision....
 

ZYellow01RT

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^^^ Nice post.

And Zee... What you mean is, you can't wait for that 500 mile break-in to end right?

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LOL...actually, Eddie wasn't able to get to it yesterday like we planned, so will have to reschedule for another day. :curse:

And seriously...I'll have to drive like a granny for 500 miles? No one told me that! :omg:
 

dave6666

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The break-in on my Unitrax 3.73 gear set was like (2) 20 mile mild highway runs with a COMPLETE COOL DOWN between them, then granny driving until 500 total break-in miles, and in your case if you have the stock diff, a fluid change. I have the OSG Superlock and a fluid change was not needed after the gear break in. Failure to do this can result in either noisy or possibly burned up gears.

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dave6666

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More great info Toma. I guess the bottom line is that for tuning and upgrades always use the same dyno? And for street bragging rights use the one with the higher numbers? LOL.

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ZYellow01RT

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More great info Toma. I guess the bottom line is that for tuning and upgrades always use the same dyno? And for street bragging rights use the one with the higher numbers? LOL.

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Dave - thanks for the info. I'm sure that Eddie is all over this, but it's good to hear it again from someone else who's been through it. :2tu:
 

Black Moon

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LOL...actually, Eddie wasn't able to get to it yesterday like we planned, so will have to reschedule for another day. :curse:

And seriously...I'll have to drive like a granny for 500 miles? No one told me that! :omg:

Jon B told me the 500 miles wasn't necessary on the 355's. I did some 20-30 minute runs with complete cool downs in-between. I probably did a few more after that. That being said I still haven't just nailed it from a dead stop. Trying to save my PS2's.
 

Toma

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Yeah, you don't need "mileage " on a gear set.

You should heat cycle them a few times, and you are good to go.
 
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