Does the ACR need to break the 7:00 mark at the Ring?

[ViperSmith]

viperjon, vipersmith, I think yall lost the point of the viper. thankyou Venom V

There are many "points" of the Viper.

Being outrageous is why I love it. Being number one at the Ring is last on my list.

I love that everyones own reasons for loving the Viper must be why someone else loves it. It is like elementary school.

 

[bluestreak]

Some of you guys are a bit presumptuous. The TA got a special one day retest on its own with Pobst driving for his reputation. The test conditions were more like what Winkler had with the whole SRT crew out setting up the car. The TA hasnt beaten the Gen V ACR on any other track yet. When they get to tracks where aero is a big factor. It could still get spanked by the ACR. Lets put Randy in a 10 ACR and let him have at it with a day supported by team SRT vs 3 total laps and park it like most cars get.

Lets see the TA prove itself in real independent testing before declaring it faster than the outgoing ACR. You guys have reached bench racing overload.

 

[ACRucrazy]

12 seconds faster than the Gen IV ACR? Do any of you guys who come up with this stuff actually drive on track? A Gen IV ACR-X on slicks ran 7:03.

A little bench racing is fun, but this is ridiculous.

What made the '10 ACR 10 seconds faster than the '08 on the same tires?

 

[Makara]

What made the '10 ACR 10 seconds faster than the '08 on the same tires?

It should be noted that every lap on any day with any driver will be exactly the same in a given car. That is the Teutonic magic of the Nurburgring.

 

[bluestreak]

What made the '10 ACR 10 seconds faster than the '08 on the same tires?

A few things made it faster. First of which was that the first time the Viper went, they put a guy in the car who had never driven a street Viper. He had only 5 or 6 laps to set a time, even their data at the time suggested he could have went well into the teens. A big part of the problem was that he spent half the lap bouncing off of the rev limiter rather than accelerating, that's a major handicap. They said the car was faster that way rather than shifting to 5th, but a majority of the speed difference was this hitting the rev limiter.

In short the 08 was handicapped only using 4 gears, and Coronel missed a few gears. That's a lot of seconds lost.

The second time around, armed with data from the first run went back with a couple of ACR's, and an ACR-X all with revised gearing with a couple of teams to support the cars. Oh and a Dominick Farnbacher and Kuno Whitmer. More drivers with more data and more support and no handicaps = 10 seconds faster.

It's not an apples to apples comparison. Even with the handicap, you put the same effort into the 08 and it goes at least a few seconds faster.

The Gen V, gets no handicaps to capitalize on.

 

[SnakeBitten]

In my opinion I think SRT will try to be the top dogs on the Ring regardless of whats about to hit from the Competition. When the Gen IV ACR came out Ralph and SRT issued a challenge to any "production car" mfg to beat the ACR car if my memory serves. I dont think at the time anyone stepped up. These are the same car nuts involved at SRT that brought us the G IV ACR which dominated even after its production cycle ended. I just cant see Ralph and SRT changing their mission with this next ACR. Ive said it before that I remember Ralph saying the upcoming ACR will be wild and radical. Above even what the outgoing ACR was. So I think they have Ring dominance on the mind with this next ACR period.

The landscape has changed since then. With cars like the Mclaren P1 and Ferrari F70/F150 all making over 800hp, weighing far less than 3000lbs and having aero it will be, a serious as cancer, uphill battle for SRT to claim the Nurburgring title no question. But I can see a "wild and radical" ACR being up to the challenge at least being in the top 3 positions. He did mention the ACR will have more power than the normal Vipers IIRC. So far we've only seen a Viper with aero and suspension mods being an ACR and it was more than enough to dominate even most hyper-exotics. I think the next ACR will be a radical departure from any predecessor and probably will be under 3200lbs and carry at least 700hp. Will it be enough to beat those hyper exotics? Probably not but Id bet it wont be far off time wise.

Does it need to be the Ring title holder against all cars to be relevant? My feeling is not at all. If the ACR is withing 2-5 secs off million dollar, hightech monsters like the P1 or F70 I cant see that diminishing the car in the least. Dont be afraid of there superior technology. That superior tech didnt help the ZR1, GT2 RS, GTR, MP4-12C, Enzo etc etc beat the Gen IV ACR on the Ring did it? Does it need to beat any variant of the Vette? I think we all know the answer to that question. No one moreso than Ralph himself. TA anyone? I don't think Ralph like being behind Vettes.

I think it will easily best the 7 min mark. It will be a superior car to the ACR-X. Im confident of that.

 

[ViperGeorge]

In my opinion I think SRT will try to be the top dogs on the Ring regardless of whats about to hit from the Competition. When the Gen IV ACR came out Ralph and SRT issued a challenge to any "production car" mfg to beat the ACR car if my memory serves. I dont think at the time anyone stepped up. These are the same car nuts involved at SRT that brought us the G IV ACR which dominated even after its production cycle ended. I just cant see Ralph and SRT changing their mission with this next ACR. Ive said it before that I remember Ralph saying the upcoming ACR will be wild and radical. Above even what the outgoing ACR was. So I think they have Ring dominance on the mind with this next ACR period.

The landscape has changed since then. With cars like the Mclaren P1 and Ferrari F70/F150 all making over 800hp, weighing far less than 3000lbs and having aero it will be, a serious as cancer, uphill battle for SRT to claim the Nurburgring title no question. But I can see a "wild and radical" ACR being up to the challenge at least being in the top 3 positions. He did mention the ACR will have more power than the normal Vipers IIRC. So far we've only seen a Viper with aero and suspension mods being an ACR and it was more than enough to dominate even most hyper-exotics. I think the next ACR will be a radical departure from any predecessor and probably will be under 3200lbs and carry at least 700hp. Will it be enough to beat those hyper exotics? Probably not but Id bet it wont be far off time wise.

Does it need to be the Ring title holder against all cars to be relevant? My feeling is not at all. If the ACR is withing 2-5 secs off million dollar, hightech monsters like the P1 or F70 I cant see that diminishing the car in the least. Dont be afraid of there superior technology. That superior tech didnt help the ZR1, GT2 RS, GTR, MP4-12C, Enzo etc etc beat the Gen IV ACR on the Ring did it? Does it need to beat any variant of the Vette? I think we all know the answer to that question. No one moreso than Ralph himself. TA anyone? I don't think Ralph like being behind Vettes.

I think it will easily best the 7 min mark. It will be a superior car to the ACR-X. Im confident of that.

I hope they do reclaim the Ring record but I think folks are underestimating the effort and cost of recertifying the car with a different engine or body work. All this requires crash testing and Clear Air certification - again. If SRT was going to up the power and recertify the car they might as well go all the way and put a blower on the car. I'll bet they've already done it for fun. Either that or they have to get real serious about taking more weight out kind of like Range Rover just did with their latest. They took something like 400 kilos out, that's a lot. Now I know that a blower isn't great for a Road Course (I used to have a Paxton 06 that I tracked) because of heat soak but I'll bet they could engineer it to be pretty darn good.

Proper aero will certainly help as will better tires but we're talking a couple of seconds at all but the biggest tracks. They would make a difference at the Ring for sure but it wouldn't drop into the 20s at LS just because of tires and aero.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Reclaim? Don't they already have it.

And yes I know why the '10 was faster than the '08. It was more of a rhetorical question.
The gen v will get to capitialize on even more data , better aero, more hp and torque and overall a better car in several ways. The Gen V ACR will dominate the 2010 time. It has too. If its only a hair faster there is no point to have it exist.

 

[SnakeBitten]

I hope they do reclaim the Ring record but I think folks are underestimating the effort and cost of recertifying the car with a different engine or body work. All this requires crash testing and Clear Air certification - again. If SRT was going to up the power and recertify the car they might as well go all the way and put a blower on the car. I'll bet they've already done it for fun. Either that or they have to get real serious about taking more weight out kind of like Range Rover just did with their latest. They took something like 400 kilos out, that's a lot. Now I know that a blower isn't great for a Road Course (I used to have a Paxton 06 that I tracked) because of heat soak but I'll bet they could engineer it to be pretty darn good.

Proper aero will certainly help as will better tires but we're talking a couple of seconds at all but the biggest tracks. They would make a difference at the Ring for sure but it wouldn't drop into the 20s at LS just because of tires and aero.

I agree with you on what you said. But Im basing my premise on what Ralph has said. He said those things knowing what you stated. Now like anything else it could just be talk and hype from Ralph about the next Viper ACR being wild and radical and all that jazz. But the Viper program was dead yet he found a way to get money and keep it alive. I'm thinking the ACR-X was a test bed for the next ACR street model. They will have to lose a lot of weight to compete and equip the ACR with better components than in the past but I think SRT will find a way to do it.

He did put out a TA in just about a month because he wanted that Laguna title back. He could have just sat there and rake in the money from the sales they already got and just wait for the ACR to handle it. This was personal and I like that a lot. He had me worried after the first test of the Gen V. I just dont see him settling for a sub par ACR after seeing this display in the last few months. Yes it ain't much at .08 secs but it shows a bit of his resolve and what the Viper will is cabable of even on inferior rubber to a top performer like the ZR1.

All Im saying is seeing his bold statements about the Gen IV ACR at the onset and 100% backing it up since '08 till now with the car out of production going on 3 years I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt about the next ACR until proven otherwise. It may be wishful thinking on my part but Im pretty confident the next ACR will be a sub 7 min car at the Ring. Just like the last ACR they will do what they need to do to stay at the top if not on top.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Reclaim? Don't they already have it.

And yes I know why the '10 was faster than the '08. It was more of a rhetorical question.
The gen v will get to capitialize on even more data , better aero, more hp and torque and overall a better car in several ways. The Gen V ACR will dominate the 2010 time. It has too. If its only a hair faster there is no point to have it exist.

Yea, my bad. The Viper still has the production car record as long as you dismiss the Radicals and the Gumpert Apollo. My thinking was that by the time a Gen 5 ACR gets to the Ring the record may have fallen, but maybe not. Either way getting a Gen 5 ACR around the Ring in less than 7 minutes is possible with the right driver, right aero, right gearing, and right tires. I don't think it will need 700 HP to do it.

 

[bluestreak]

There are many seconds between a hair faster and sub 7 minutes.

Reclaim? Don't they already have it.

And yes I know why the '10 was faster than the '08. It was more of a rhetorical question.
The gen v will get to capitialize on even more data , better aero, more hp and torque and overall a better car in several ways. The Gen V ACR will dominate the 2010 time. It has too. If its only a hair faster there is no point to have it exist.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Where did I say sub 7 minutes? What makes the ACR-X so good that the Gen V ACR doesn't have a shot at its 7:03 time? By your account the tires. I would also say it may give up some in the chassis too because of the whole cage bit.

What can the (supposed forthcoming) Gen V ACR have the advantage at if its not the tires? More data, better aero, better suspension, more power, probably lighter weight, better gearing, better track conditions maybe a better car overall with more development?

2010 ACR = 7:12.13
2010 ACR-X= 7:03.05

9.08 second difference.

Dick Winkles even said they felt there is still time left on the table and if they had to go back and run a little faster time they could.

IMO the Gen V will be closer to the 7:03 time than the 7:12 time, slicks or no. That being said I would have not be surprised if it eclipsed the ACR-X time and I believe it to be totally possible if they want to. They already know what it takes to run the 7:03, that is a huge advantage.

And you are right, it is all bench racing. I have no idea what Ralph and team SRT has up their sleeves for the future or the rumored ACR. Let's wait and see

 

[ViperSmith]

I do agree, I don't think they'd be pushing the ACR up before the Verts if they didn't think they could build a monster ACR.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Also on the tire bit, the new "TA" beat the ACR-X time at Laguna, both cars on slicks.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Also on the tire bit, the new "TA" beat the ACR-X time at Laguna, both cars on slicks.

All this is why I think we will have a sub 7 min Gen V ACR.

 

[bluestreak]

You are changing too many directions to keep up. You respond to my post regarding bench racing asking a question that once I respond to you say is rhetorical. The title of the thread is sub 7:00, so what do you think that would lead people to assume your stance is?

If SRT puts a full fledged, Nissan level assault on the ring, yeah, sginificantly lower times, but Dominick Farnbacher is not leaving large chunks of time on the table.

The Gen V has to be massively faster than the Gen IV to beat it's time on slicks with a non-slick tire. I'm all for bench racing, but some actual, non-regurgitated fanboy knowledge of the track is not annoying. And not I'm not referring to you. Too many conclusions being drawn between a red and green apple test years, drivers, conditions and situations apart for all of this to drip over into ring times. Like I said, more truly independent testing will prove if the TA is genuinely faster than the Gen IV ACR which seems to be the basis for the now over zealousness.

Where did I say sub 7 minutes? What makes the ACR-X so good that the Gen V ACR doesn't have a shot at its 7:03 time? By your account the tires. I would also say it may give up some in the chassis too because of the whole cage bit.

What can the (supposed forthcoming) Gen V ACR have the advantage at if its not the tires? More data, better aero, better suspension, more power, probably lighter weight, better gearing, better track conditions maybe a better car overall with more development?

2010 ACR = 7:12.13
2010 ACR-X= 7:03.05

9.08 second difference.

Dick Winkles even said they felt there is still time left on the table and if they had to go back and run a little faster time they could.

IMO the Gen V will be closer to the 7:03 time than the 7:12 time, slicks or no. That being said I would have not be surprised if it eclipsed the ACR-X time and I believe it to be totally possible if they want to. They already know what it takes to run the 7:03, that is a huge advantage.

And you are right, it is all bench racing. I have no idea what Ralph and team SRT has up their sleeves for the future or the rumored ACR. Let's wait and see

 

[ACRucrazy]

Changing directions? Read my first reply to this thread.

ACR-X had the same weight and HP as the 2013. Looking at everything SRT has done, it looks very methodical. The 7.03 the ACR-X ran, I expect the new ACR to eclipse that.

My stance is I expect the Gen V ACR to beat the 7:03 ACR-X time. I thoughts on the matter have not changed.

 

[bluestreak]

Changing directions? Read my first reply to this thread.



My stance is I expect the Gen V ACR to beat the 7:03 ACR-X time. I thoughts on the matter have not changed.

I forgot you posted that one, but your rhetorical question did not sound anything like one. It was pretty straight forward.

 

[madninjaskillz]

I expect the ACR to be a monster. We have seen with the "base" model what can be done with just a bit of tweeking on lesser tires. I don't think Ralph is a bs artist when talking about what he wants the new ACR to be. My prediction is it will eclipse the 7 minute mark. As to whether it can beat a car with more hp, solid aero and less weight? Well, the physics aren't in our favor.

 

[1BADGTS]

Well BAD, at some level companies have to grow a set of balls and decide if they are going to be the lead sled dog or have the same view as the other dogs behind the leader.

It is called INVESTMENT....without it companies flounder. Remember the Lamborghini Countach?....it was way over the top, mainly in style but was a pretty potent performance package for the day. Lamborghini made the INVESTMENT to build something that has forever kept the name Lambo on the map. Hell, I think they made more money selling posters of the Countach than they actually made selling the car.

Fiat and Chrysler have to decide what they want their future to look like. Just spend enough to be in the market and you'll end up with something like a C5 Vette....10 years from now you'll be able to pick up a clean running C5 for $3000. Build something awesome and people talk, discuss, debate and desire it. Don't spend the INVESTMENT now and watch the rest of your product line start to suffer.

The money is there, it is being used for other things (maybe rightly so, maybe not). Since Chrysler is Fiats profit center for the last 12 months, I'd say the boys at Chrysler are holding up their end as is the Amercian buyer. Time to give them the money to really kick GM and Fords butts and let them play catch up for the next 10 years. Trust me, it costs a lot more to play catch up than doing it right the first time.
Often times spending 10% more today saves spending 40% a year from now. It takes balls when you decide to allow a bad quarter or two knowing that INVESTMENT will make the next 36 months prosperous. No business can survive based on making decisions every 90 days, INVESTMENT takes money and time.



Cheers,
George

George the problem is our Vipers are entirely SINGLE USE PLATFORM CARS .There is not a car company out there selling a low volume entirely single use platform car in the Vipers price range because theres NO MONEY TO BE MADE Take engine development for example the Gen 5 is 640 hp because SRT could not get any more power out of it WITHOUT SPENDING SERIOUS MONEY (You cant simply go to a larger cam because it could never pass EMISSIONS and DRIVABILITY TESTING )To get 700 HP and above NA would require big time valvetrain dolars invested besides the fact SRT DEALER SUPPORT is in ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NO SHAPE to work on such an exotic motor .Supercharging is the most efficient way to get the power but once again wheres the profit coming from to pay back the tens of millions it cost to develop such an engine .(Selling a few thousands vipers a year cant come close )Such an engine MUST be a multi use platform ALA FORD and CHEVY .Look at the VETTE CHEVY LOSES MONEY ON ALL THE ZR-1 THEY SELL and doesnt care because the cost of that model is assululated over the 50k other Vetts they sell yearly not to mention that motor platform is used in how many other cars they sell per year.

 

[bluestreak]

Also on the tire bit, the new "TA" beat the ACR-X time at Laguna, both cars on slicks.

This is the problem I'm talking about. The ACR-X was doing shakedown runs. It was one of if not the first time they officially tested it, tuning the suspension etc. The X is significantly faster than 1:31, that much I am sure of. I would bet Ralph and the SRT team would tell you that too. The X is a sub 1:30 car all day. It's easily as fast as the IMSA Cup Cars at 1:28's. It's proven that much all over the place with the Viper Cup.