Doomed

[v10enomous]

I am a little curious as to why all previous generation Vipers are referred to as a POS by the media and some current Viper owners since the Gen 5 is on the horizon. I have not had the privilege of seeing the new Viper, but I am sure it is great and someday I may get one, but in the meantime I think everybody ought to realize that previous Vipers were what they were supposed to be and I am not making excuses for any of them. I liked all of them.

There are just a few in the press that refer to the previous Vipers as a POS. I also love them all but they are not for everyone and the media plays to the masses.

 

[ferraritoviper]

"Irregardless"?

A bit archaic, but certainly doable. Could be a private school education from some time ago...I have no problem with it, and it adds a bit of panache, to an otherwise boring internet vocabularly in general these days

 

[Camfab]

Yes... it means the same thing as "unloosen"
can't believe you don't know that

I'm ashamed of myself

 

[eucharistos]

Yes... it means the same thing as "unloosen"
can't believe you don't know that

irregardless, i oftentimes unloosen my belt at the buffet, but i could care less

 

[SilveRT8]

irregardless, i oftentimes unloosen my belt at the buffet, but i could care less

Priceless !

 

[black mamba1]

Car and Driver has proven the initial premise laid out in this forum. And that is that a 640 hp rwd 3300 lb American sports car is just not that competitive for 2013 and beyond.

When the C7 Z06 and ZR1 performance numbers are released our beloved SRT Viper GTS will look like a joke in its stock form. Now...my Gen 5 will be modified...as will many if not most of yours...but guess what...

everybody else is modding too.

Expect the C7 ZR1 to come in at 665 hp to elipse the Mustang for bragging rights and expect trap times of 10.9 at speeds of 133 mph and expect the C7 Z06 to come in at 550 plus hp and running 11.4's and 11.5's all day long. Its already running consistent 11.7's. And expect that car to come in under 85k.

So...what does all this mean? You know what it means. It means only die hard Viper guys and sports car guys wanting a different look will buy the Viper. But there is not enough of the first and that latter is too fickle as a buying group. So what does that mean?

You know exactly what that means too.

 

[jvp]

Expect the C7 ZR1 to come in at 665 hp to elipse the Mustang for bragging rights and expect trap times of 10.9 at speeds of 133 mph and expect the C7 Z06 to come in at 550 plus hp

As a die hard Corvette fan, I hope you're right. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for HP numbers like that. GM's curse of the success of the Corvette means they sell in volume. And with that volume comes the fun bit of fuel efficiency requirements. I don't believe your Viper is burdened with those same FE requirements, so SRT is actually a little more free to play with HP numbers. Unfortunately, GM can't.

My guess is we'll see a single uprated C7 (called a Z06 or something else) sometime after the base coupe and convertible are released, it'll have a forced-induction mill, and be putting out close to 600HP. But the car will be a lot lighter than today's, so what GM loses in HP it makes up for in lower mass.

Just a guess tho...

So...what does all this mean? You know what it means. It means only die hard Viper guys and sports car guys wanting a different look will buy the Viper. But there is not enough of the first and that latter is too fickle as a buying group. So what does that mean?

You know exactly what that means too.

Yeah, that's a painfully unfortunate bit. The die-hard enthusiasts aren't enough to keep a vehicle line truly profitable in today's market. Yes, there will be a crush of folks buying the new car when it's first released. But the continuity of sales are what's important. It's something a lot of Viper folks like to pick on the Corvette for (ie: "there are so many of them!") but it's why the line continues in GM. If GM sold as few Corvettes as Vipers in total, the line would have been killed off ages ago. My guess is that SRT is facing similar pressures, and that's why they're trying to attract new buyers vs just repeats.

jas

 

[ViperSmith]

Nice post jas. hopefully Chevy pushes the C7 platform, makes for a better Viper!

 

[SlateEd]

Car and Driver has proven the initial premise laid out in this forum. And that is that a 640 hp rwd 3300 lb American sports car is just not that competitive for 2013 and beyond.
...
So...what does all this mean? You know what it means. It means only die hard Viper guys and sports car guys wanting a different look will buy the Viper. But there is not enough of the first and that latter is too fickle as a buying group. So what does that mean?

You know exactly what that means too.

What did it mean a few years ago when the Red Sox won a World Series title?
(not to start a tangental battle with my friends in the New England Region, but......)
Certainly no one said the Yankees were "doomed"

The Viper, like the Yankees, is a better platform to begin with. It has some fundamental advantages over the 'vette that mean it will continue to dominate on average over the long term.
Any good rivalry becomes pointless when one side dominates 100% of the time without exception - that's not actually "competition" You didn't expect the rest of the world to give up and stop engineering new cars after the ACR 'Ring record was set? If the ZR1 (which, lets not forget, is an exceptional 'vette) puts down some numbers that best the GenV (which is barely finished) that's a sign that there will be more firepower coming to the track in the future.

Maybe when you write "competitive" you mean to say "unequaled-100%-of-the-time-and-totally-dominant-regardless-of-what-the-competition-does"... in that case you are right, but not even the Yankees can do that, so let's be realistic. Will the Viper set some new track records around the world? of course.

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

The Viper, like the Yankees, is a better platform to begin with. It has some fundamental advantages over the 'vette that mean it will continue to dominate on average over the long term.
QUOTE]

SlateEd,

"a better platform to begin with." Utterly facinating. I need your help to understand what you see about the Viper platform that is better than the Corvette platform.

"fundemental advantages" Again utterly facinating. Again I need your help to understand what you see are the fundemental advantages that the Viper has over the Corvette.

"dominate on average over the long term" The most utterly facinating of all. Please describe how these advantages will play out over the long term to dominate over the Corvette.

No attack on you! This is a sincere attempt to understand what you mean/see represented in the statements you made.

IBT

 

[SlateEd]

The Viper, like the Yankees, is a better platform to begin with. It has some fundamental advantages over the 'vette that mean it will continue to dominate on average over the long term.
QUOTE]

SlateEd,

"a better platform to begin with." Utterly facinating. I need your help to understand what you see about the Viper platform that is better than the Corvette platform.

"fundemental advantages" Again utterly facinating. Again I need your help to understand what you see are the fundemental advantages that the Viper has over the Corvette.

"dominate on average over the long term" The most utterly facinating of all. Please describe how these advantages will play out over the long term to dominate over the Corvette.

No attack on you! This is a sincere attempt to understand what you mean/see represented in the statements you made.

IBT

IBT,

for the first two, what I mean is, The Viper has evolved as a race car, it's roots are in prioritizing track performance over street performance and comfort. I know that something similar could be said for the 'vette, but the truth is, a hand-built halo car is going to be a better research platform for a track monster than something that needs to meet various gov standards for 15,000 units or more each year. The frame is built in a race-shop. The engine is still NA and producing more than the SC V-8 in the ZR1. Not saying that SRT will (or even should) go to factory forced induction, but certainly the "untapped" potential in the Viper platform is greater than whatever is left in the 'vette.

"On average over the long-term" I'm talking about exactly that... how many MT and C+D articles since 1992 have suggested that the 'vette is a faster car? How many track records can be attributed to stock 'vettes during that same 20 years?
What I'm saying is that a record or two that fall to the ZR1/ Z07 right now don't mean that the Viper as a brand/platform is in danger of being eclipsed by the 'vette in general in the future. Comparing a test-mule on a brand new generation to a supercar version of a well-worn platform is not a reason to freak out and declare the viper "doomed" Assuming both cars continue to be produced for the next (lets say) 10 years - the Viper will take more records and "win" more magazine side-by-sides... just not this one.
If the "score" of model years compared with 'vettes was 20-0 then we would need to be comparing ourselves to Pagani and Bugatti and we'd be looking at a $450,000 msrp for the gen V... the truth is that if the score over 20 model years is 17-3 I think we're still safe to say the Viper is dominant on average, and probably will be again in 2014 or 15...

If 2016 rolls around and the Viper is falling further behind, so that we see a trend with no viable fix, maybe then we start a thread called "doomed"

My analogy to baseball is that the Red Sox' win in 2009 does not negate the fact that the Yankees have more titles than any team ever, and certainly does not mean that for the foreseable future the Sox will be a "better" team. (and as far as business viability, both continue to sell tickets and jerseys; so let's not fire the staff just yet....)

 

[v10enomous]

Doomed is all too often the result of Panic

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

IBT,

for the first two, what I mean is, The Viper has evolved as a race car, it's roots are in prioritizing track performance over street performance and comfort. I know that something similar could be said for the 'vette, but the truth is, a hand-built halo car is going to be a better research platform for a track monster than something that needs to meet various gov standards for 15,000 units or more each year. The frame is built in a race-shop. The engine is still NA and producing more than the SC V-8 in the ZR1. Not saying that SRT will (or even should) go to factory forced induction, but certainly the "untapped" potential in the Viper platform is greater than whatever is left in the 'vette.

"On average over the long-term" I'm talking about exactly that... how many MT and C+D articles since 1992 have suggested that the 'vette is a faster car? How many track records can be attributed to stock 'vettes during that same 20 years?
What I'm saying is that a record or two that fall to the ZR1/ Z07 right now don't mean that the Viper as a brand/platform is in danger of being eclipsed by the 'vette in general in the future. Comparing a test-mule on a brand new generation to a supercar version of a well-worn platform is not a reason to freak out and declare the viper "doomed" Assuming both cars continue to be produced for the next (lets say) 10 years - the Viper will take more records and "win" more magazine side-by-sides... just not this one.
If the "score" of model years compared with 'vettes was 20-0 then we would need to be comparing ourselves to Pagani and Bugatti and we'd be looking at a $450,000 msrp for the gen V... the truth is that if the score over 20 model years is 17-3 I think we're still safe to say the Viper is dominant on average, and probably will be again in 2014 or 15...

If 2016 rolls around and the Viper is falling further behind, so that we see a trend with no viable fix, maybe then we start a thread called "doomed"

My analogy to baseball is that the Red Sox' win in 2009 does not negate the fact that the Yankees have more titles than any team ever, and certainly does not mean that for the foreseable future the Sox will be a "better" team. (and as far as business viability, both continue to sell tickets and jerseys; so let's not fire the staff just yet....)

What I am still wondering about and maybe someone can answer is where was the "heat soak" factor in LS? If the Viper was hoping for HS then it obviously didn't happen or at the very least show up. It seems to me that the years of "dialing in" the Vette has paid off....the new snake needs this time also and it should be just fine. at least I'm hoping so as a lot of sales will depend on how this new snake does. We still have to remember it is still so early in the Gen V life cycle.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The car will be doomed, but not by Dodge. The government will doom it long before Dodge does if they keep setting records.

I'll second that.

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

IBT,

for the first two, what I mean is, The Viper has evolved as a race car, it's roots are in prioritizing track performance over street performance and comfort. I know that something similar could be said for the 'vette, but the truth is, a hand-built halo car is going to be a better research platform for a track monster than something that needs to meet various gov standards for 15,000 units or more each year. The frame is built in a race-shop. The engine is still NA and producing more than the SC V-8 in the ZR1. Not saying that SRT will (or even should) go to factory forced induction, but certainly the "untapped" potential in the Viper platform is greater than whatever is left in the 'vette.

"On average over the long-term" I'm talking about exactly that... how many MT and C+D articles since 1992 have suggested that the 'vette is a faster car? How many track records can be attributed to stock 'vettes during that same 20 years?
What I'm saying is that a record or two that fall to the ZR1/ Z07 right now don't mean that the Viper as a brand/platform is in danger of being eclipsed by the 'vette in general in the future. Comparing a test-mule on a brand new generation to a supercar version of a well-worn platform is not a reason to freak out and declare the viper "doomed" Assuming both cars continue to be produced for the next (lets say) 10 years - the Viper will take more records and "win" more magazine side-by-sides... just not this one.
If the "score" of model years compared with 'vettes was 20-0 then we would need to be comparing ourselves to Pagani and Bugatti and we'd be looking at a $450,000 msrp for the gen V... the truth is that if the score over 20 model years is 17-3 I think we're still safe to say the Viper is dominant on average, and probably will be again in 2014 or 15...

If 2016 rolls around and the Viper is falling further behind, so that we see a trend with no viable fix, maybe then we start a thread called "doomed"

My analogy to baseball is that the Red Sox' win in 2009 does not negate the fact that the Yankees have more titles than any team ever, and certainly does not mean that for the foreseable future the Sox will be a "better" team. (and as far as business viability, both continue to sell tickets and jerseys; so let's not fire the staff just yet....)

Thanks

I don't agree, BUT I believe that at least I now have a chance understand your reality as you experience it. I appreciate your candor abd your courtesy.

IBT

 

[kennyhemi]

After reading through this thread a lot of us worry way too much on things people say that we can't control! And shouldn't care!

 

[wikkid]

Good thread, so much chitter chatter on what car is faster. What does that really matter in the long run. Maybe 10% of Viper owners can really drive there cars to half there limit. And hopefully its on a roadcourse. All the cars mentioned in this thread are great cars, and i would take any of them. When your spending 100+k you better be happy with what your buying, or your a idiot. The new Viper is a great car, and one day i hope to have one, but that wont happen till all the hoolla dies down, not worried it wont take long... it never does. Because the next best thing is already in the works, and then its old news.