Doug Levin Motorsports 1300 HP S/C Viper !!!

[blkasp1]

DLM builds some incredible stuff! I've always known Doug to build fast street cars out of Vipers so it doesn't surprise me that you guys went with a more manageable package for everyday driving. When I spoke to Doug last he said they were backing down on the power on Dr. Roofs car at Bowling Green because it was traction limited and David was getting used to the car. Does anyone know if Dr. Roofs car had the same system as Ben's?
BTW, Moroso stinks!

Ross

 

[treynor]

I can't answer for Doug, but in his shoes I've be awfully hesitant to divulge my 'tricks of the trade' for making a Viper engine tolerate that power level. I will tell you that he spent a lot of time on my motor, and it runs like a top -- and cool, too!

 

[treynor]

Ross - Roof has the same SC system as I'm putting back on (NOT the one I was trying out... that one is just insane) although my engine is more built up than his. He did turn the power down a bit on his car, but I believe he has some new, fairly impressive dyno numbers to report.

 

[GONABITE]

Ben,

Can we PLEASE see the dyno graph? That is an awesome amount of power. It will be great to see that run the 1/4. Good luck.

 

[Gerald]

Ben, Ben Ben Ben.... your sick.. 1300 HP? *** is wrong with you?

Have fun and be safe!

G

 

[matt lankford]

I dont think that would stay strapped to the dyno

 

[blkasp1]

Thanks for the reply Ben. I just can't imagine 30lbs of boost? That's just amazing!

Ross

 

[Matt]

I'd be interested to know if it was even able to be dynoed at that power level. If so, please let me know some specifics like what tire was used, what model dyno, was weight added to the back, etc. I recently accompanied a friend with a similar power level Camaro running an intercooled Vortech YS trim race blower on his stroked 383. We had problems with the R-compound tires he was running spinning on the dyno rollers of the mustang dyno being used. This occured even when the tires were aired down to 18 psi.

 

[treynor]

Heh. Dyno'ing the really high HP Vipers has been a persistent problem. Before this latest iteration, my RT would make a consistent 960 - 1000 RWHP before spinning the tires on the (dynojet) dyno drum. We tried everything -- running on the dyno on ET streets, 200 lbs of crankshafts in the trunk, dyno'ing with a passenger, etc. The most we were ever able to get the dyno to register was 1020 RWTQ, and then tires would spin despite everything.

For this iteration, the power was significantly above what we'd seen before, even on spray. There was no point in dyno'ing it at high boost. However, it was pretty consistent at lower boost levels:

835 RWHP @ 15 PSI
862 RWHP @ 16 PSI
954 RWHP @ 19 PSI

Very consistently 28 RWHP per PSI of boost (remember that zero "boost" is 14.7 PSI absolute). Given the considerable power increase above what was previously seen at a (dyno'd) 1000 RWHP, and given that 26 PSI boost extrapolates to 1140 RWHP, I'm being quite conservative with the 1100 RWHP figure. Peak boost with the "slow" pulley was actually 27 PSI, but that occurred at 6000 RPM, while previous HP measurements were taken around 5700 RPM.

FWIW, max boost with the "fast" pulley was well over 30 PSI. The gauge only goes up to 30 PSI, and it was pegged by about 5500 RPM At that point the blower we used still wasn't spun up to the peak of its efficiency zone, so one could (if one were so inclined) extrapolate 1280 RWHP, or about 1500 BHP... It didn't really matter at that point, however, because the tires were *always* spinning by then, even in 4th.

It would have been nice to find a dyno which could handle the power. A "1500 HP Viper" plaque would have been a cool addition to the ole collection...

 

[Viperzilla]

I have a video on my computer at home that has an RX-7 dynoing in Japan with 5 guys in the hatch/trunk!!! I know we can't fit 5 Americans in there, but they may be worth your time to get 2-3 in there.

 

[treynor]

> I know that in the Pro-Mod car I was involved with - I
> was with that car from 800hp ex streeter to almost 3000hp
> in all its stages of development. By 1350hp there was no
> way you'd get me in that thing on a public road... it was
> undriveable at even half throttle.

TM, that's exactly right. Hell, even Doug said he was scared to drive the car, and that was with the "slow" pulley. Good drag radials would buy 10-20% more traction, but that's not even in the ballpark of what's necessary. It's just too much power for the street in a RWD car.

Now if we could figure out how to make a 4WD Viper...

 

[8AVETTE]

I can't wait to get my SRT/10 back from Doug.

 

[Cudaman]

Very impressive horsepower, keep the hp up, just drive around with a pace car ahead of you spraying the road with VHT.
Cudaman

 

[SnakeBitten]

Treynor any tq numbers to post??

 

[BlueGTS]

Ben, so the max you could measure was 954rwhp @ 19psi out of the big SCer, any more would have resulted in tires spinning? At that 19psi level what kind of torque numbers did you get?

Can you post the 19psi sheet?

 

[Snakester]

I'm curious why the super-high HP cars don't run on the wheel-hub dynos? (maybe no 6-lug adapters?).

Our local Speed Merchant has a bolt-up dyno that attaches directly to the wheel hubs. The HP numbers are slightly lower than the Mustang dynos, but there is no issues about tire slippage.

There always seems to be a livability threshold between owning a high performance street car, and a full-on racecar or drag car. And it's good that you discovered that you actually want to have a very fast car that you can actually drive on the streets, rather than having some ungodly/unsafe beast just for boasting the highest power numbers.

-Dean.

 

[MaxedGTS]

I dont think you could measure that much torque on a dynojet?
Bolting the wheels on a hub i would think would be the best way to do it.

Max

 

[treynor]

I was told that the wheel-hub dynos won't accept cars above around 700 HP. If that proves to be false, I'll definitely use one when the car gets back to CA. Even at 954 HP the tires ended up spinning.

I'll post the 19 PSI sheet as soon as I can scan it. TQ was slightly over 1000 if memory serves.

 

[fearsuch]

what model procharger was that?

That is one crazy set up

 

[Paolo Castellano]

I see this generated a certain amount of traffic To answer some of the many questions:

* videos are coming; I need to get a tape from a 3rd party and digitize it, and then it'll go straight to the 'net.

* I did consider traction control & other alternatives. The issue was partially power delivery - the Procharger didn't have as much massive midrange as I'd hoped, but instead delivered violent top end. Boost control isn't very practical on a SC application because the blower's always spinning at a fixed ratio to engine RPM. For my current application, the NOVI is just a more streetable blower.

* 9's without N2O would have been really nice, but Moroso isn't the right track. Prep is nonexistent, and it's impossible to get a good launch. Even with the lower-power setup the car would spin slicks there. I've got a good track near home (Sacramento) and I'll be trying for 9's there. 850-880 RWHP should be enough

* Finally, I've not given up on the quest for Ultimate Power. Doug and I are already plotting some good alternatives for making a streetable package which can still break records on the dyno and at the traps. Those'll be months in the formulation, however, and I want to drive my 1000 BHP RT while the weather's nice!

Ben, Doug, Congratulations! I was wondering how the power delivery would be with a blower that big. Just like turbo sizing, Most likely that blower was so big that it probably needed some degree of spoolup relative to the Novi 2000 and I bet when that bad boy spooled to the magical point, I bet it was unbelievable! I am sure you made the right decision to go back down in power to the 850 RWHP range as that power is only useable above 160-170. That last time I went that fast in an RT/10 it did not feel nearly as stable as the GTS at the same speed.

P.S. Ben, who are you kidding about good weather? Dont you live in California where the sun is always shining?

 

[MaxedGTS]

what model procharger was that?

That is one crazy set up

That looks like the F or D series procharger.They make massive amounts of torque and horsepower. The pro 5.0 guys use them with a chain drive. they can make over 2000 hp.

Sick!

 

[Paolo Castellano]

For this iteration, the power was significantly above what we'd seen before, even on spray. There was no point in dyno'ing it at high boost. However, it was pretty consistent at lower boost levels:

835 RWHP @ 15 PSI
862 RWHP @ 16 PSI
954 RWHP @ 19 PSI

Very consistently 28 RWHP per PSI of boost (remember that zero "boost" is 14.7 PSI absolute). Given the considerable power increase above what was previously seen at a (dyno'd) 1000 RWHP, and given that 26 PSI boost extrapolates to 1140 RWHP, I'm being quite conservative with the 1100 RWHP figure. Peak boost with the "slow" pulley was actually 27 PSI, but that occurred at 6000 RPM, while previous HP measurements were taken around 5700 RPM.

Ben, is that 28 PSI/lb boost an average extrapolation or an actual measurement? I have always read and heard that there are diminishing marginal returns as the boost increases. 30 X 28 = 840. Starting with 300 RWHP and adding the 840 makes 1140 RWHP. I cannot imagine that motor makes only 300 RWHP unless the compression is ungodly low. If the motor makes 1140 RWHP at 26 PSI, then the motor makes around 412 RWHP with the 28 PSI/lb boost. I think that there has to be a diminishing scale as the boost progresses beyond a certain point.

Did you guys dyno with 15,16 and 19 PSI pulleys or were these readings measured as a function of the supercharger spooling as the RPMS were increasing?

 

[treynor]

Paolo - 28 RWHP / PSI boost is an exact calculation for my car within the range I measured it. The ratio will be somewhat different depending on heads, cam, compression, etc. and will be considerably different for a turbo car. For S/C cars the number seems to be consistently 27 - 29 RWHP / PSI.

The reason the math seems odd is that you are omitting the base atmospheric pressure, 14.7 PSI. At zero PSI boost, the engine is still seeing 14.7 PSI of pressure above vacuum, and so is making (roughly) 14.7 * 28, or 414 RWHP ... about what you'd expect for a stock Viper. At 15.3 PSI of boost the engine's seeing 30 PSI of absolute pressure, and thus we'd predict it makes 30 * 28 = 840 RWHP. At 20 PSI we get 34.7 * 28 = 971 RWHP, at 26 PSI we have 40.1 * 28 = 1122 RWHP, and so on.

I do tend to agree that with increasing PSI you do see diminishing returns: you have to drop compression and/or timing or increase octane to maintain the HP / PSI ratio, you run higher intake temps and more parasitic drag from the supercharger, and so on. The figure may drop from 28 to 26 or 25 HP as the boost continues to rise; if I could get it to hook up at all above 19 PSI we might have had a few more data points to use. However, the curve is dead straight up to that point, so if there's a knee it's pretty far up there.

To answer your other question, the measurements were taken at peak recorded power with various pulleys. The 15 and 16 PSI pulls were with the NOVI blower. And yah, the Procharger came on hard when it finally engaged. It's not a very street-friendly blower (did I mention it's LOUD?) but it'd be just the ticket for a 1500HP race car. I'd be interested to see the compressor map on it...

Speaking of evil street machines, how's your Heffner beast coming along? I trust you won't go down quite the same radical path I just tried, but are we looking at a challenge to my 16 PSI / 860 RWHP "street" setup?

Also, any other SC or Turbo owners out there want to contribute PSI & RWHP data to this discussion?

 

[1TONY1]

Ben, My outlaw 10.5" car is sitting with an empty engine bay at the moment.......hmmmmm

 

[treynor]

Tony, you crack me up. It'd be a match made in heaven!

Just to give you an idea of how big that SC really is, here's a front view. Realize that the tubing you see going into the intake manifold is 3" diameter...

You must be registered for see images

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Paolo - 28 RWHP / PSI boost is an exact calculation for my car within the range I measured it. The ratio will be somewhat different depending on heads, cam, compression, etc. and will be considerably different for a turbo car. For S/C cars the number seems to be consistently 27 - 29 RWHP / PSI.

The reason the math seems odd is that you are omitting the base atmospheric pressure, 14.7 PSI. At zero PSI boost, the engine is still seeing 14.7 PSI of pressure above vacuum, and so is making (roughly) 14.7 * 28, or 414 RWHP ... about what you'd expect for a stock Viper. At 15.3 PSI of boost the engine's seeing 30 PSI of absolute pressure, and thus we'd predict it makes 30 * 28 = 840 RWHP. At 20 PSI we get 34.7 * 28 = 971 RWHP, at 26 PSI we have 40.1 * 28 = 1122 RWHP, and so on.

I do tend to agree that with increasing PSI you do see diminishing returns: you have to drop compression and/or timing or increase octane to maintain the HP / PSI ratio, you run higher intake temps and more parasitic drag from the supercharger, and so on. The figure may drop from 28 to 26 or 25 HP as the boost continues to rise; if I could get it to hook up at all above 19 PSI we might have had a few more data points to use. However, the curve is dead straight up to that point, so if there's a knee it's pretty far up there.

To answer your other question, the measurements were taken at peak recorded power with various pulleys. The 15 and 16 PSI pulls were with the NOVI blower. And yah, the Procharger came on hard when it finally engaged. It's not a very street-friendly blower (did I mention it's LOUD?) but it'd be just the ticket for a 1500HP race car. I'd be interested to see the compressor map on it...

Speaking of evil street machines, how's your Heffner beast coming along? I trust you won't go down quite the same radical path I just tried, but are we looking at a challenge to my 16 PSI / 860 RWHP "street" setup?

Also, any other SC or Turbo owners out there want to contribute PSI & RWHP data to this discussion?

Ben, the car should be done in the next couple of weeks. We are definitely not going the pro-mod-type cog blower from one of the monster trucks or top fuel dragsters(just kidding there). I am sure we are looking at a challenge for your RWHP "street" setup for dyno #'s. The difference is that my car is a GTS with a full roll cage that will be set up to do Bonneville salt flat-type 250+ MPH running as well as a Silverstate. I think the GTS is better suited for high speed than the RT/10 and the roll cage will pay huge dividends in more ways than one. For me, the drag strip is ok but not my main thing. I am hoping to road race the car and drive it on the street and be the baddest M.F'er around. I do not know how much power will be useable. I have a friend who went for a ride in your car last summer when it was still by Doug and he said 800 RWHP was awesome, but almost useless (in his opinion anyway) on the street. A lot of people talk all the time about what is useable and what's not. I want to determine for myself what is practical and useable. And that, I should find out, soon enough!

 

[treynor]

Paolo - that sounds like a great package, and I'm glad to hear you're setting it up for proper roadcourse duty. The GTS definitely does better than the RT at high speeds (it's all aerodynamics) and you will of course have fewer traction issues at high speeds.

I think you'll find that 800 RWHP is pretty useable on an SC car - it's like riding a big literbike, you're rarely at full throttle but you learn to modulate the acceleration to what the tires & chassis will handle. As long as you have a predictable powerband, it's just a matter of driver learning.

Keep us posted on your car!

 

[Gerald]

From my last DLM viper to this one I would say the 'useable' range of Street HP is around 650ish RWHP. Any other opinions? Any more than that and your feathering with everyday street tires.

Gerald

 

[treynor]

Nah, you can't even light up the tires in 3rd with 650. 750 seems to be right on the edge in 3rd, and 850 you definitely need to feather the throttle when the SC comes on boost. 4th hooks up with 850 once the tires are good and warm.

FWIW, BFG has released a new 345/18 g-force drag radial which is just the ticket for you stock-wheel SC'ers out there. I got a pair of 265s for my Benz too

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Paolo - that sounds like a great package, and I'm glad to hear you're setting it up for proper roadcourse duty. The GTS definitely does better than the RT at high speeds (it's all aerodynamics) and you will of course have fewer traction issues at high speeds.

I think you'll find that 800 RWHP is pretty useable on an SC car - it's like riding a big literbike, you're rarely at full throttle but you learn to modulate the acceleration to what the tires & chassis will handle. As long as you have a predictable powerband, it's just a matter of driver learning.

Keep us posted on your car!

Ben, I am glad to see 800 RWHP is useable. I eventually want to be able to drive the 800 RWHP as much and hopefully to the limit( On the roadcourse=> we'll see!) as I do with the stocker. I want it to be reliable and FAST!

As far as high speeds go, We will just have to do some closed course high speed testing to see where the limit will be. Jason Heffner will also be fabricating some of the aerodynamic innovations we will be using to keep Enzo Who on the ground.