Dynoed my Viper today 612 RWHP 619 RWTQ! 91 pump gas!
- Thread starter FastMatt
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Bullet488
Enthusiast
1BADGTS,
I think it's Joe, right? I recall meeting you at Englishtown with Evan Smith about 8 ago. You had a B/W GTS and would only run on street tires. Nase was at the track running slicks.
Anyway, I ran Mark Heidaker's 1996 RT/10 to a 9.9ET back in 1999 with TNT heads cam + a healthy shot of nitrous. It was the 1st car in the 9's and the car was all but untouchable at the time. We won A LOT of events (including a Mopar Nationals in Norwalk) and ran A LOT of 9 second passes when everyone else was in the 10's.
NOW think how silly I would sound coming on the boards today to claim that no one could possibly beat that car. Better yet, to ask where all these supposed 7-8-9 second vipers were at those races we won almost 10 years ago?
There are A LOT... Probably 90%.. of modified vipers that are slower at the track than the horsepower numbers indicate. Some of them are handicapped with tires, some are driven poorly and some are peaky dyno queens. With the exception of a twin turbo viper, I haven't felt anything that pulls as smooth and solid across the entire RPM range as Norm's LPE N/A viper. It's sorted, it's nasty and it's FAST.
Comparing timeslips from completely different builds with unknown drivers and variables based SOLELY on peak dyno numbers is pointless. As a seasoned drag racer, you should know that.
I remember Marks car.Now what kind of power did that car run on the dyno to produce that 9.9.Also what was his trap speed with that power.Remember we are talking Nat asperated these guys today are making these 9 second runs on BIG BOOST BLOWER AND TURBOS.THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH YOU CAN DO WITH A na CAR.1BADGTS,
I think it's Joe, right? I recall meeting you at Englishtown with Evan Smith about 8 ago. You had a B/W GTS and would only run on street tires. Nase was at the track running slicks.
Anyway, I ran Mark Heidaker's 1996 RT/10 to a 9.9ET back in 1999 with TNT heads cam + a healthy shot of nitrous. It was the 1st car in the 9's and the car was all but untouchable at the time. We won A LOT of events (including a Mopar Nationals in Norwalk) and ran A LOT of 9 second passes when everyone else was in the 10's.
NOW think how silly I would sound coming on the boards today to claim that no one could possibly beat that car. Better yet, to ask where all these supposed 7-8-9 second vipers were at those races we won almost 10 years ago?
There are A LOT... Probably 90%.. of modified vipers that are slower at the track than the horsepower numbers indicate. Some of them are handicapped with tires, some are driven poorly and some are peaky dyno queens. With the exception of a twin turbo viper, I haven't felt anything that pulls as smooth and solid across the entire RPM range as Norm's LPE N/A viper. It's sorted, it's nasty and it's FAST.
Comparing timeslips from completely different builds with unknown drivers and variables based SOLELY on peak dyno numbers is pointless. As a seasoned drag racer, you should know that.
Remember regardless of the 8 years of time a GEN 2 is a gen 2 .To trap in the 146 range you need at least 850 plus flywheel horsepower.I really want to be proven wrong here because 850 horsepwer is a crazy amount to make WITHOUT some sort of power adder esp considering LPE is claiming the car is good for 725 in their adds.
I see your local (i from Colts Neck )next track event be SURE to look me up and we can discuss this further if you want )
The computer in DRAG times claims a 3550 lb(which my GEN 2 WEIGHTED) car needs 836 horsepower at the crank or over 710 HORSEPOWER TO THE TIRE to run 146 mph.Lpe claims there 540 stroker is good for 725 to the crank -over 100 hp less than whats need to run that trap.Please explain the differences here.
Check out 1Tony1s sig and notice the numbers from his Roe engine. I am calmly waiting his TT numbers.
When I posted my 139mph on street tires the point was that with slicks it'd pick up a lot more than a half second.
At VOI I learned that the GTSR block is the molds that were used to build the Gen 2 engines. The standard block casting didn't work out and all Gen 2s got racing blocks - pretty cool, eh?
You're attempting to state that 2 seconds is too difficult an improvement without a power adder? So saying that means that you obviously haven't seen some of those Chrysler Minivans going 12s with stock parts? You know, 18 sec. 2.2 turbo Minivans going 12s at the track, just spanking those vettes. You wouldn't want to race any of those old 12 and 13sec Z06s at Calgary because there's nearly a half dozen "stocker type" 2.2 cars going low 12s and a hybrid going low 11s.
Ted
When I posted my 139mph on street tires the point was that with slicks it'd pick up a lot more than a half second.
At VOI I learned that the GTSR block is the molds that were used to build the Gen 2 engines. The standard block casting didn't work out and all Gen 2s got racing blocks - pretty cool, eh?
You're attempting to state that 2 seconds is too difficult an improvement without a power adder? So saying that means that you obviously haven't seen some of those Chrysler Minivans going 12s with stock parts? You know, 18 sec. 2.2 turbo Minivans going 12s at the track, just spanking those vettes. You wouldn't want to race any of those old 12 and 13sec Z06s at Calgary because there's nearly a half dozen "stocker type" 2.2 cars going low 12s and a hybrid going low 11s.
Ted
Youtube says that my 88Z is loaded so check it out.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2C2UJv6EOs[/media]
With some sticky street tires it would ahve easily gone 12s with 15psi boost. Faster than a Z06. Turn the boost up to 26 and melt off a set of tires. Chrysler engineers had a couple turbo minivans going 12s with ALL stock parts.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2C2UJv6EOs[/media]
With some sticky street tires it would ahve easily gone 12s with 15psi boost. Faster than a Z06. Turn the boost up to 26 and melt off a set of tires. Chrysler engineers had a couple turbo minivans going 12s with ALL stock parts.
2001 GTS
Enthusiast
So I guess my goal of 650rwhp on the stock 488ci motor is a pipe dream as well
Ted both my car and PRO DRAG RACER Dons cars were BUILT to the Max .The ONLY difference the LPE car has over Dons is 25 cubic inches thats it .The LPE car traps over 10 mph MORE THAN Nace EVER RAN .VERY SIMPLE TO GET A 3550 LB VIPER TO TRAP in the 146 range you need at least 825 hp.Your car on a blower with 10 LBS OF BOOST CANT RUN THOSE NUMBERS.An Oreca car With a GTSR engine (WHICH MAKES alot more power than ANY stocked block Gen 2 Engine for MANY REASONS probably cant trap 146 in a street Viper ) To get more bower with a forced induction car you turn up the boost when you COMPARE two OF THE SAME engines that are already BUILT TO THE MAX (SAME BLOCK SAME INTAKE ECT )THERE IS only so much power that can be added.Your a numbers guy what kind of power was produced by the Oreaa cars -GTSTR blocks.If you check back it was around 800.Thats with a dry sump .LPE car does not have.Thats with a fifteen thousand dollar 10 tb intake.Lpe car does not have.Thats with the GTRS HEADS casting .Lpe car does not have .Thats with a solid cam LPE cars run HYD .tHATS WITH OVER 13 TO 1 COMPR.LPE RUNS 12
THATS MY WHOLE POINT IN THIS THREAD we are comparing to na ENGINES THAT ARE BUILT TO THE MAX ALREADY there IS NO BOOST.YOU GET A FEW HORSEPOWER HERE AND THERE from compression bumps ect but you cancrank up the boost a few lbs and gain 100 or so.
This is coming from the same computer bench racer that claimed a GTSR engine was not built to make power.When it comes to modding. The little 427 motor has little chance against a gen2 Viper motor . Naturally aspirated built, or forced inducted.
Its alright,I know your feelings got hurt on this thread. You took quite a beating from this thread. Carry on.
Yea Ted after viewing you video thats some piece you got there boy.That baby would be sure to eat a current Gen Z06 alive.Is LSD BACK in vogue in BiMPO Lake Canada.
Hey coming from an experianced VIPER DRAG RACER like you HELL of coarse i took a beating .By the way for some strange reason you forgot to mention YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS with YOUR VIPER NOT FROM heresay facts hidding behind a computer.
Is that a friendly discussion or a call out..?.. I could give two ****s about peoples e-macho statements, accusations and drama. If it's a friendly meet up to talk about cars and bikes, sure...E-town is 8 mins away and I'm there often.
I think the point you're missing here is that it has been done. You can plug as many #'s into your computer as you want...it only computes pre-programed equations. It does not account for traction variables, temperature variables, driver variables, variable variables etc. You're also assuming stock weights.
You're being way to defensive after being way to offensive. You haven't carried this as a discussion, you've spent all this time "telling" people....try voicing an opinion or arguing your beliefs instead of trying to force them on others... it works much better that way.
I too am at Englishtown often as a childood friend(Rich Napp )is the owner .The GM (KEVIN markland IS A FRIEND).I think your missing the point here if you check back to the Mopar National Championships run there every year PLEASE find out WHOSE car won THE EVENT IN THE MODDED DIVISON 1998-2001 The car is now owned by our EX nat pres WHO BOUGHT IT FOR A REASON..The results my car optained WERE NOT ON A COMPUTER.Flat OUT SOME OF THE BEST DRIVERS IN THE COUNTRY HAVE DRIVEN IT.(if you go there often you should know who Evan Smith and Ken MIELE ARE )so MY OPINION ON THIS IS NOT ONLY PREDICATED on a computer.
LOL, the 2.2 was running 13psi boost on a turbo that is efficent to 28psi. More than double stock hp and an improvment of 5 sec from stock was the point. Gobble up Z06s with just tires. Only a very few Z06 after 06 (when they actually were 505hp) and a lot of slugs before 06 were called Z06.
LSD? What's that? Damn, see what I've been missing? I quit drinking because it interfered with my driving. Never got into drugs - I spent every penny left over from my family on my cars. Always have until the lat few years. Now I have a Viper I spend a lot less on cars. I have a savinbgs account. Bought my Ultimate dream car and modify it a few times a year. A whole lifetime to get here and life is soo worth it!
badgt ever heard of a short stack? It's a style of engine that is worth 50hp for a 440ci. Not sure if you could grind a GTSR block (like all Gen2s came with)to short stack a 488 but if anyone had the bucks to build a crankshaft to build a 800ci it would probably be a shortstack style.
A dry sump isn't worth a lot of hp, although it worth a HUGE amount of dollars.
You have no clue what Fully built even means. Just go check out Prostocks and see the amount of hp that n/a engines are capable of.
Your favourite Z06 is based on a sb chev, right? Imagine if GM really wanted to build fast and copied Dodge and added 2 cylinders to their 350! They would have had about a 437ci engine V10. Oh that's right, since they didn't own Maserati they had no one to figure out the crank problems created by build an engine that way. I'll guess GM tried to build a GM Viper engine that they couldn't get past the crank problems so they just built a short stack 427ci? Too bad it's so small and can't go BIG.
If someone with serious money cared enough they would just build that 8-900ci Viper engine. Oh that's right, we have crate motors - antique style Hemi engines - that come out of the box with any hp you want. Matter of fact there's a Hemi Viper in Calgary that is a ProComp with a n/a Hemi going 7 or 8s?
Fully built would have a bird catcher induction and Methanol, right? Or do we set rules and limits? NONONO, no of course there's no limits to "fully built". A Tunnelram and bird catcher would cause a hole for allowing the height required for the 100+ extra hp from that setup. Fully built would also mean no heavy heavy factory fglass. Fullt built would require a set of Billet heads to optimize the flow of the tunnelram and allow usage of the height to use a style of heads like Koffels B1s. It's easy to see a fullt built engine would be like a prostock except that starting 15% bigger it would make 15% more hp than the Prostocks do.
Ted
LSD? What's that? Damn, see what I've been missing? I quit drinking because it interfered with my driving. Never got into drugs - I spent every penny left over from my family on my cars. Always have until the lat few years. Now I have a Viper I spend a lot less on cars. I have a savinbgs account. Bought my Ultimate dream car and modify it a few times a year. A whole lifetime to get here and life is soo worth it!
badgt ever heard of a short stack? It's a style of engine that is worth 50hp for a 440ci. Not sure if you could grind a GTSR block (like all Gen2s came with)to short stack a 488 but if anyone had the bucks to build a crankshaft to build a 800ci it would probably be a shortstack style.
A dry sump isn't worth a lot of hp, although it worth a HUGE amount of dollars.
You have no clue what Fully built even means. Just go check out Prostocks and see the amount of hp that n/a engines are capable of.
Your favourite Z06 is based on a sb chev, right? Imagine if GM really wanted to build fast and copied Dodge and added 2 cylinders to their 350! They would have had about a 437ci engine V10. Oh that's right, since they didn't own Maserati they had no one to figure out the crank problems created by build an engine that way. I'll guess GM tried to build a GM Viper engine that they couldn't get past the crank problems so they just built a short stack 427ci? Too bad it's so small and can't go BIG.
If someone with serious money cared enough they would just build that 8-900ci Viper engine. Oh that's right, we have crate motors - antique style Hemi engines - that come out of the box with any hp you want. Matter of fact there's a Hemi Viper in Calgary that is a ProComp with a n/a Hemi going 7 or 8s?
Fully built would have a bird catcher induction and Methanol, right? Or do we set rules and limits? NONONO, no of course there's no limits to "fully built". A Tunnelram and bird catcher would cause a hole for allowing the height required for the 100+ extra hp from that setup. Fully built would also mean no heavy heavy factory fglass. Fullt built would require a set of Billet heads to optimize the flow of the tunnelram and allow usage of the height to use a style of heads like Koffels B1s. It's easy to see a fullt built engine would be like a prostock except that starting 15% bigger it would make 15% more hp than the Prostocks do.
Ted
The Napps, Rich included, do a lot of business with my wife.. small world.
Richie and i went to Kindergarten together .Mike was a year behind.Kevin Markland is also a great guy.Iam in the VENDING Business and i actually had Dinner with Kevin last month over possibly getting in the track but cnt compete with COKE.
TED THE SUBJECT HERE IS na Vipers.Go thru all the features (not just dry sump which is still worth some power over a pan )the GTSR HAS that the LPE DOESNOT and then tell we what all of these things (10 tb intake,solid cam )ect are worth power wise.COMPARE THESE TWO ENGINES IN POINT feature for feature then tell me how a LPE engine can match power for power with the GTSR MOTOR.
Norm's Viper weighs less than 3550, he did some weight saving things to his car. The only ones I will mention is removal of passenger seat , shaving of driver's head for additional weight savings.
1Tony1 and myself have raced Norm/Scott for approximately 5 years.... never were his times reflective of a private rental or his car hidden in the corner of the track between runs. Everyone one of his low passes were done in front of 50 - 80 Viper owners at the the V-10 Nationals. Almost all of those runs were against me or Tony.
Norm's reputation is impeccable, he built his Viper with the best team of LPE engineers and would spare NO expense on parts.
I can tell you from all my years of racing I never saw a Nitrous bottle in his Viper or trailer. His Viper was always in the open before and after every run.
BE WARNED, YOU ARE DIGGING YOURSELF A DEEP HOLE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF!
Cudaman
A GTSR engine is built for stamina and longevity. It is built for different rpm ranges. It is a road racer and mileage is extremely important. You have no understanding if you think a Drag and a Road racing engine have any common parts.
A drag engine starts from Zero and goes for a quarter mile whereas a GT engine is for corner to corner. The dry sump in a GT car is for longevity. Surely you know that the ground clearance is important? The swinging pickup in the CC is easily improved as the Vipers corner with such large G forces that the oil goes up the sides of the block and uncovers the oil pickup causing starvation and engine failure. Dry sump gets rid of this problem as the oil sits in a tank, not the oil pan.
Drag engines can see highn rpms and run camshafts with massive lift and overlap. GT engines are optimized for the rpms they run at different tracks. Again, mileage is important as during a 24 hr. race the amount of gas fill ups easliy wins or loses the race. Drag racing means only pour in a half tank or Fully built cars would use a 5 gal tank as that's more than enough for a 1/4 there and 1/4 mile back with left over gas for burnouts etc.
I would expect poor perfomance from a GT engine on a drag strip. I would expect a drag race engine to only last a couple laps before the engine blew up.
My engine is built for 100,000miles and a fully built engine would be built for a day or two worth of runs and then strip it down. Watch TV, the fast drag cars get pulled down after each run. Fully built means if it wins the race it was a great job. My cousin ran the "World's Fastest Pickup" and even with the Title he had to go faster and faster. His Reher-Morrisson engine needed a replacement 3 times a year and it eventually had to run a couple of Nitrous kits because his was the only 71 GMC Pick up to run7s and 6s. That's fully built. I think he got mid 8s out of it before starting with Nitrous.
Ted
A drag engine starts from Zero and goes for a quarter mile whereas a GT engine is for corner to corner. The dry sump in a GT car is for longevity. Surely you know that the ground clearance is important? The swinging pickup in the CC is easily improved as the Vipers corner with such large G forces that the oil goes up the sides of the block and uncovers the oil pickup causing starvation and engine failure. Dry sump gets rid of this problem as the oil sits in a tank, not the oil pan.
Drag engines can see highn rpms and run camshafts with massive lift and overlap. GT engines are optimized for the rpms they run at different tracks. Again, mileage is important as during a 24 hr. race the amount of gas fill ups easliy wins or loses the race. Drag racing means only pour in a half tank or Fully built cars would use a 5 gal tank as that's more than enough for a 1/4 there and 1/4 mile back with left over gas for burnouts etc.
I would expect poor perfomance from a GT engine on a drag strip. I would expect a drag race engine to only last a couple laps before the engine blew up.
My engine is built for 100,000miles and a fully built engine would be built for a day or two worth of runs and then strip it down. Watch TV, the fast drag cars get pulled down after each run. Fully built means if it wins the race it was a great job. My cousin ran the "World's Fastest Pickup" and even with the Title he had to go faster and faster. His Reher-Morrisson engine needed a replacement 3 times a year and it eventually had to run a couple of Nitrous kits because his was the only 71 GMC Pick up to run7s and 6s. That's fully built. I think he got mid 8s out of it before starting with Nitrous.
Ted
Bullet488
Enthusiast
If I remember correctly, Mark's car had 728rwhp.. Ran 9.9 @ 142-144mph.. Apples to Oranges..
Also, you seem to be making some assumptions about Norm's LPE car. The "standard" 542ci might be advertised at 725hp. Norm's car isn't standard.. The guys from LPE have engineered, tuned and delivered a serious viper that Norm built to go as fast as possible.. While the car is totally streetable: 6-speed, carpet, full interior (less passenger seat), A/C, stereo, registration, insurance, etc.. Noone claimed it was a standard package and a docile daily driver..
You can only do so much with a n/a "street" viper. To date, only 3 have been in the 9's.
LPE built 2....
Also found that video and looked into the numbers for you:
>> Video of 9.48 pass <<
Bradenton Viper Nationals 2006
9.48 @ 145.96
9.49 @ 148 (back up run)
Bullet488
Enthusiast
The only ones I will mention is removal of passenger seat , shaving of driver's head for additional weight savings.
Cudaman
Ward,
You are a great competitor and have figured out my secret..
No hair = fast ! (ask Tony)
You have tons of hair = slow !
I'd say having you in the other lane helped us hit that 9.48.
Hell, I'm sorry we missed Bradenton this year, I think you could have hit the 8's with some competition!
Next time,
Scott
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No problem but NACE (WHO DOES THIS FOR A LIVING )AND I SPARED NO EXPENSE FOR PARTS ANS SERVICES ALSO. As i replied earylier should NORM want the car tested (under the provision of coarse Smith can INSPECT IT )and inturn put in MOPAR PERF MAG THE OFFER STILL STANDS.The test could be WORKED OUT conducted IN FLA OR NJ.iN TURN THE SECOND a mid 9 second run is obtained i will be the first to admit i was WRONG right here on this forum UNTILL then YOU GUYS HAVE YOUR OPINION I HAVE MINE.Norm's Viper weighs less than 3550, he did some weight saving things to his car. The only ones I will mention is removal of passenger seat , shaving of driver's head for additional weight savings.
1Tony1 and myself have raced Norm/Scott for approximately 5 years.... never were his times reflective of a private rental or his car hidden in the corner of the track between runs. Everyone one of his low passes were done in front of 50 - 80 Viper owners at the the V-10 Nationals. Almost all of those runs were against me or Tony.
Norm's reputation is impeccable, he built his Viper with the best team of LPE engineers and would spare NO expense on parts.
I can tell you from all my years of racing I never saw a Nitrous bottle in his Viper or trailer. His Viper was always in the open before and after every run.
BE WARNED, YOU ARE DIGGING YOURSELF A DEEP HOLE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF!
Cudaman
Ted you completely sidesteeped the question.Does the GTSR make more power from its advanced parts(heads cam intake ect ) than ANY tuner car engine that does not have such parts I dont need to be taught about the power curve on the car (solid cam )
