Butch The Snake
Enthusiast
What are H.P. and Torque diferences between 96-97 engines and the 99-01 engines? Different cam's? Different heads? Different exhaust manifolds? or anything else internal diferences?
Engine differences between 96-97 and 99-01
- Thread starter Butch The Snake
- Start date
TOOOFST
Enthusiast
Hey Butch,even though 96-97's have more dyno proven power,your creampuff daddy yellow o1 with Bellangers is the fastest car in the VCA club with 11.95@120,besides me,ha.Once we juice ya,you'll be back in the running!
Oversimplifed:
Manufacturer claims basically the same HP/TQ from 1996.5 to 2002.
ACRs claim +10HP and a bit more TQ
96-97 cams are 'hotter'. Forged pistons.
98-99 cams a bit softer. Forged pistons.
98+ has ss shorty tube headers. +4 unclaimed HP. 25+lbs lighter
00+ are called "cream puffs." Softest cam. Cast, lightweight pistons.
heads the same. IMs the same. valvetrain the same...
Computers were different in those 3 iterations
Manufacturer claims basically the same HP/TQ from 1996.5 to 2002.
ACRs claim +10HP and a bit more TQ
96-97 cams are 'hotter'. Forged pistons.
98-99 cams a bit softer. Forged pistons.
98+ has ss shorty tube headers. +4 unclaimed HP. 25+lbs lighter
00+ are called "cream puffs." Softest cam. Cast, lightweight pistons.
heads the same. IMs the same. valvetrain the same...
Computers were different in those 3 iterations
Chuck 97 GTS
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Butch The Snake:
What are H.P. and Torque diferences between 96-97 engines and the 99-01 engines? Different cam's? Different heads? Different exhaust manifolds? or anything else internal diferences?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey Butch, the year doesn't matter as much as RT/10 vs. GTS. The GTS is faster and that's what you have so stop worrying about it!
What are H.P. and Torque diferences between 96-97 engines and the 99-01 engines? Different cam's? Different heads? Different exhaust manifolds? or anything else internal diferences?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey Butch, the year doesn't matter as much as RT/10 vs. GTS. The GTS is faster and that's what you have so stop worrying about it!
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck 97 GTS:
The GTS is faster
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not with you driving.
The GTS is faster
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not with you driving.
Well I can offer some information regarding this because I have a 96, as well as a 2000 "Creampuff". A 96 differs in many ways. First off, the 96 has a much better suspension, dampening and rebound rate from the Koni shocks. When the early Vipers first came out, many people who purchased the earlier years complained that the Viper was too stiff. So the later models from '98 on have the softer riding shocks. The bushings on the control arms are also softer on the later cars, as well as the spring rates. The ACR model provides a stiffer ride as compared to the GTS.
The engines are quite different. The 96 and 97 engines have some of the best internals ever made available from the factory. The pistons are much stronger and lighter. They are forged which allows for more abuse, but they also expand more which creates more compression, due to the less blow-by escaping past the piston rings. The later pistons are cast, and lighter. The camshaft makes the largest difference. It is very aggressive, and the car sounds awesome. I have been told by many that if you break in the engine properly you can obtain more power.
The following procedure is what was suggested to me for my 2000. Just drain that Mobil 1 oil and replace it with Aeroshell 30w aviation oil. Then run the car hard for at least a week, maybe more depending on how often you are able to use it. This will allow the operating temperatures to rise to where they should be. This will allow the piston rings to actaully bite into the cylinder walls, allowing the surfaces to mate. By doing this it will help to seat the piston rings. I've been told that with the engines being filled with synthetic oil from the factory, the rings never seat properly, which can lead to oil consumption, and the appearance of fuel deposits on the back of the car. After doing this, flush the oil with fresh, clean 10/30 oil, change it again Then use the Royal Purple Racing 10/30 oil. It has been shown that if you were to dyno your car before, then do all these steps, and dyno it again you may pick up, up to 30hp.
Personally, although the 96 sounds so much meaner than the creampuff, I will have to admit that the creampuff is far nicer "driving" car. The 2000 just feels more solid and seems to handle better. Just my 2 cents
Laura
The engines are quite different. The 96 and 97 engines have some of the best internals ever made available from the factory. The pistons are much stronger and lighter. They are forged which allows for more abuse, but they also expand more which creates more compression, due to the less blow-by escaping past the piston rings. The later pistons are cast, and lighter. The camshaft makes the largest difference. It is very aggressive, and the car sounds awesome. I have been told by many that if you break in the engine properly you can obtain more power.
The following procedure is what was suggested to me for my 2000. Just drain that Mobil 1 oil and replace it with Aeroshell 30w aviation oil. Then run the car hard for at least a week, maybe more depending on how often you are able to use it. This will allow the operating temperatures to rise to where they should be. This will allow the piston rings to actaully bite into the cylinder walls, allowing the surfaces to mate. By doing this it will help to seat the piston rings. I've been told that with the engines being filled with synthetic oil from the factory, the rings never seat properly, which can lead to oil consumption, and the appearance of fuel deposits on the back of the car. After doing this, flush the oil with fresh, clean 10/30 oil, change it again Then use the Royal Purple Racing 10/30 oil. It has been shown that if you were to dyno your car before, then do all these steps, and dyno it again you may pick up, up to 30hp.
Personally, although the 96 sounds so much meaner than the creampuff, I will have to admit that the creampuff is far nicer "driving" car. The 2000 just feels more solid and seems to handle better. Just my 2 cents
Laura
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 'VIPERESS':
The 96 and 97 engines have some of the best internals ever made available from the factory. The pistons are much stronger and lighter. They are forged........The later pistons are cast, and lighter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vipress...great to see ya elaborate, but: They cant BOTH be lighter!
The forged pistons are heavier. The cast pistons are lighter. Depending on the strength measurement, the MFTR of both (the same) says the cast pistons are stronger by some measurements!
But in fact, the dome is not as durable, as some NOS users have holed em since 2000.......
Even tho "Butch" started this queston, he has not acknowledged our elaborate replies...and now he's talking "*** guy" stuff! Named 'BUTCH' no less !?
The 96 and 97 engines have some of the best internals ever made available from the factory. The pistons are much stronger and lighter. They are forged........The later pistons are cast, and lighter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vipress...great to see ya elaborate, but: They cant BOTH be lighter!
The forged pistons are heavier. The cast pistons are lighter. Depending on the strength measurement, the MFTR of both (the same) says the cast pistons are stronger by some measurements!
But in fact, the dome is not as durable, as some NOS users have holed em since 2000.......
Even tho "Butch" started this queston, he has not acknowledged our elaborate replies...and now he's talking "*** guy" stuff! Named 'BUTCH' no less !?
Butch The Snake
Enthusiast
Hey Chucky thanks for the scoop, the next question is where is that *** buddy of ours The Yellow Snake he has disapeared off the face of the earth.
YellowSnake
Enthusiast
BUTCH-THE-SNACK:
TRY http://viperpiper.hypermart.net/ TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, MAYBE YOU CAN LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR FAVORITE TOPIC.
Vaffanculo a Lei, la sua moglie, e' la sua madre. Lei e' un cafone stronzo. Io non mangio in questo merdaio! Vada via in culo! Vaffanculo! un pompinaio, un succhiatore, un leccacazzi, un gustafave
AS FOR YOUR QUESTION OF WHERE I AM, I JUST GOT BACK FROM VEGAS. IT TOOK ME A DAY OR TWO TO GET OUT OF JAIL AFTER A RUN-IN AT RA, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT. EVERYONE AT THE GREEN DOOR AND RED ROOSTER SAY HI.
Nessuno me lo ficca in culo!
TRY http://viperpiper.hypermart.net/ TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, MAYBE YOU CAN LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR FAVORITE TOPIC.
Vaffanculo a Lei, la sua moglie, e' la sua madre. Lei e' un cafone stronzo. Io non mangio in questo merdaio! Vada via in culo! Vaffanculo! un pompinaio, un succhiatore, un leccacazzi, un gustafave
AS FOR YOUR QUESTION OF WHERE I AM, I JUST GOT BACK FROM VEGAS. IT TOOK ME A DAY OR TWO TO GET OUT OF JAIL AFTER A RUN-IN AT RA, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT. EVERYONE AT THE GREEN DOOR AND RED ROOSTER SAY HI.
Nessuno me lo ficca in culo!
Chuck 97 GTS
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonB - PartsRack:
But in fact, the dome is not as durable, as some NOS users have holed em since 2000.......
Even tho "Butch" started this queston, he has not acknowledged our elaborate replies...and now he's talking "*** guy" stuff! Named 'BUTCH' no less !?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Butch, pay close attention to the NOS comment. Don't worry, Butch is the real deal.
But in fact, the dome is not as durable, as some NOS users have holed em since 2000.......
Even tho "Butch" started this queston, he has not acknowledged our elaborate replies...and now he's talking "*** guy" stuff! Named 'BUTCH' no less !?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Butch, pay close attention to the NOS comment. Don't worry, Butch is the real deal.
Butch The Snake
Enthusiast
Viperess thank's for the reply you have answered many of my questions about diferences with the older and newer Viper's.
-----------
Jon B parts rack I also appreciate your reply and your profesional opinion, I will take note and call you when I need some parts. Looking to increase H.P. to 700-800. By the way Butch is one of my legal names.
-----------
87 911 Turbo (previous)
91 911 Turbo (previous)
96 911 TT (previous)
97 C5 (previous)
97 750 il (previous)
98 Boxster (previous)
98 Red GTS (previous)
99 911 aero kit (previous)
99 M3 (previous)
99 740i sport (previous)
99 Blk GTS (previous)
01 911 TT (previous)
01 Z06 (previous)
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01 Yellow GTS (present)
01 M3 (present)
01 740i sport (present)
99 Navigator (present)
02 360 Modena (January 02)
----------
If I missed anything I will let you know!
BUTCH THE SNAKE
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Jon B parts rack I also appreciate your reply and your profesional opinion, I will take note and call you when I need some parts. Looking to increase H.P. to 700-800. By the way Butch is one of my legal names.
-----------
87 911 Turbo (previous)
91 911 Turbo (previous)
96 911 TT (previous)
97 C5 (previous)
97 750 il (previous)
98 Boxster (previous)
98 Red GTS (previous)
99 911 aero kit (previous)
99 M3 (previous)
99 740i sport (previous)
99 Blk GTS (previous)
01 911 TT (previous)
01 Z06 (previous)
----------
01 Yellow GTS (present)
01 M3 (present)
01 740i sport (present)
99 Navigator (present)
02 360 Modena (January 02)
----------
If I missed anything I will let you know!
BUTCH THE SNAKE
Andrew2KRT10
Enthusiast
Well, I guess I own a creamfuff. **** ! But it still does the job for me.
As for oil comsumption? Someone mentioned switching from M-1 to some other oil to allow the rings to seat better........
I have to say, after many events and what I consider hard driving, I have never had any significant oil consumption; at least not that which would require me to add oil inbetween changes.
So why would they have "softened" up the engine in '00, and subject nice guys like me to creampuff labels?
AC
As for oil comsumption? Someone mentioned switching from M-1 to some other oil to allow the rings to seat better........
I have to say, after many events and what I consider hard driving, I have never had any significant oil consumption; at least not that which would require me to add oil inbetween changes.
So why would they have "softened" up the engine in '00, and subject nice guys like me to creampuff labels?
AC
Butch,
My pleasure..you are very welcome.
BTW the pistons were lighter. After doing some "conferencing"
with one of my favorite tuners, it seems that the cast pistons had lighter domes and larger skirts because they did not expand as much as the forged pistons. Forged piston do expand more therefore they have a smaller skirt and less material, giving them a lower weight
Laura
2000 BLACK GTS
1996 Blue/White GTS
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by 'VIPERESS' on 11-30-2001 at 01:52 PM</font>
My pleasure..you are very welcome.
BTW the pistons were lighter. After doing some "conferencing"
Laura
2000 BLACK GTS
1996 Blue/White GTS
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by 'VIPERESS' on 11-30-2001 at 01:52 PM</font>
YellowSnake
Enthusiast
BUTCH-
"YOUR" 01 M3,01 740i sport,99 Navigator, & 02 360 Modena ARE YOU WIFES! YOU ARE LUCKY SHE LETS YOU DRIVE THE 01 Yellow GTS SHE GAVE YOU FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY. IT MUST BE NICE NOT TO WORK BECAUSE SHE MAKES THE $ IN THE FAMILY.
SEE YOU IN TORONTO THIS WEEKEND.
"YOUR" 01 M3,01 740i sport,99 Navigator, & 02 360 Modena ARE YOU WIFES! YOU ARE LUCKY SHE LETS YOU DRIVE THE 01 Yellow GTS SHE GAVE YOU FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY. IT MUST BE NICE NOT TO WORK BECAUSE SHE MAKES THE $ IN THE FAMILY.
SEE YOU IN TORONTO THIS WEEKEND.
Casey
Enthusiast
YellowSnake, that is some pretty harsh words towards Butch!!
LOL!! WOW!!
LOL!! WOW!!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Butch The Snake:
Hey Chucky thanks for the scoop, the next question is where is that *** buddy of ours <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was giving Butch a hard time for thanking Chuck but not us !
A friend at the big-red-team assures me that the cast pistons weigh less, with less rotating mass... as a goal/design change reason. Hmmm.
Hey Chucky thanks for the scoop, the next question is where is that *** buddy of ours <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was giving Butch a hard time for thanking Chuck but not us !
A friend at the big-red-team assures me that the cast pistons weigh less, with less rotating mass... as a goal/design change reason. Hmmm.
Butch The Snake
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YellowSnake:
BUTCH-
"YOUR" 01 M3,01 740i sport,99 Navigator, & 02 360 Modena ARE YOU WIFES! YOU ARE LUCKY SHE LETS YOU DRIVE THE 01 Yellow GTS SHE GAVE YOU FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY. IT MUST BE NICE NOT TO WORK BECAUSE SHE IS MAKES THE $ IN THE FAMILY.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yellow Shake, it's better than KISSING your mothers A** for the money to buy that RT10 you bought for your girl friend.
Do you think your girl friend will let you take her Viper to next Viper meeting.
You know the only reason she is with you is because you (or your mother) bought that car for her.
BUTCH-
"YOUR" 01 M3,01 740i sport,99 Navigator, & 02 360 Modena ARE YOU WIFES! YOU ARE LUCKY SHE LETS YOU DRIVE THE 01 Yellow GTS SHE GAVE YOU FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY. IT MUST BE NICE NOT TO WORK BECAUSE SHE IS MAKES THE $ IN THE FAMILY.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yellow Shake, it's better than KISSING your mothers A** for the money to buy that RT10 you bought for your girl friend.
Do you think your girl friend will let you take her Viper to next Viper meeting.
You know the only reason she is with you is because you (or your mother) bought that car for her.
Butch The Snake
Enthusiast
Andrew I think the answer to your question is emission's, every year the the auto manufacters have to meet stricter emission standards. So less polution = less H.P..
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Yellow 01 GTS
Toofst air box
smooth tubes
S & B filters
Roe calibrator
Ballanger headers
Ballanger exhaust
11.9 E.T. @ 120 M.P.H.
-------------
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Yellow 01 GTS
Toofst air box
smooth tubes
S & B filters
Roe calibrator
Ballanger headers
Ballanger exhaust
11.9 E.T. @ 120 M.P.H.
-------------
TOOOFST
Enthusiast
Yo BJ,Forget the Viper Lets tweek the modena in the 10's on street tires,could be history.
Butch The Snake
Enthusiast
Toofst, Better yet we should tweek my Navigator, with Yellow Snakes girlfreind driving it should be a good race.
Well, well. Jon I don't doubt any of the information that you received from our red shirt team. However, one must always keep in mind. the business aspect..cost effiecency, etc. Enough said.
PSS. 1bad GTS, it is true that the magazines have not tested a stock GTS to go that fast. I think ist is necessary that you keep in mind, that many times testing may be being done with drivers who may not have the experience in a GTS. I don't think you can really use the performance of one car, to judge the performance level across the board. It is known that stock 1996 and 1997 GTS' were all capable of 120-122 mph through the quarter mile. It is also known that with the 2000 and 2001 Vipers, there is an concern with them being down on rated power. You mention about cam duration, that fact is true. The power seems to be more readily available in the 1996, 1997. These are often the cars that are seeked out for use as race cars. The later cars seem to require many additional upgrades in order to be competitive. From what I understand, the specs for the cam of the upcoming Competition Coupe are closer to those of the 1996 and 1997 GTS', rather than the specs of the 2000 and 2001 cams. I rest my case
Laura 2badGTS'
PSS. 1bad GTS, it is true that the magazines have not tested a stock GTS to go that fast. I think ist is necessary that you keep in mind, that many times testing may be being done with drivers who may not have the experience in a GTS. I don't think you can really use the performance of one car, to judge the performance level across the board. It is known that stock 1996 and 1997 GTS' were all capable of 120-122 mph through the quarter mile. It is also known that with the 2000 and 2001 Vipers, there is an concern with them being down on rated power. You mention about cam duration, that fact is true. The power seems to be more readily available in the 1996, 1997. These are often the cars that are seeked out for use as race cars. The later cars seem to require many additional upgrades in order to be competitive. From what I understand, the specs for the cam of the upcoming Competition Coupe are closer to those of the 1996 and 1997 GTS', rather than the specs of the 2000 and 2001 cams. I rest my case
Laura 2badGTS'
genXgts
Enthusiast
Good thread going here, did anyone see the article in Popular Mechanics comparing a 96 (or 97) GTS versus many hipo musclecars of the late 60's?
The GTS went 11.97 from the testers which is the fastest time I have seen in print from a reputable magazine.
Where can I find the article on the 11.77 run from Evan Smith?
Does he run for any of the magazine testers, I am going to go back and try and find who was driving for the 11.97 run in the blue GTS, the article is online at popularmechanics.com.
1badgts, is Evan's method a 3000 feather out and full throttle powershifts, using the clutch, or idle out and lead in from there? Whatever it is the man can drive.....
Although the variables are huge with elevation, temp, humidity, yada,yada, the difference between the same car is massive....
Road and Track has a both 460 and 450 horser's running at 12.5, Car and Driver, at 12.6.
.8 of a second at this level is the difference between tossing water bottles over to a Z06 for storage and pulling away from a F50 in my book.
Admittingly I am a numbers man, but it's winter up here, what else to do??
till next time,
Ryan
The GTS went 11.97 from the testers which is the fastest time I have seen in print from a reputable magazine.
Where can I find the article on the 11.77 run from Evan Smith?
Does he run for any of the magazine testers, I am going to go back and try and find who was driving for the 11.97 run in the blue GTS, the article is online at popularmechanics.com.
1badgts, is Evan's method a 3000 feather out and full throttle powershifts, using the clutch, or idle out and lead in from there? Whatever it is the man can drive.....
Although the variables are huge with elevation, temp, humidity, yada,yada, the difference between the same car is massive....
Road and Track has a both 460 and 450 horser's running at 12.5, Car and Driver, at 12.6.
.8 of a second at this level is the difference between tossing water bottles over to a Z06 for storage and pulling away from a F50 in my book.
Admittingly I am a numbers man, but it's winter up here, what else to do??
till next time,
Ryan
YellowSnake
Enthusiast
Casey & Acatala7:
GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE APPRECIATED MY COMMENTS, LOL!
BUTT-THE-SNACK:
I AM A 100% ENTREPRENEUR. YOU JUST QUESTION MY FINANCIAL STATUS BECAUSE I AM HALF YOUR AGE. FOR YOUR FAILING MEMORY, I AM 24 YEARS OLD. TRY http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/1030/memory.html
GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE APPRECIATED MY COMMENTS, LOL!
BUTT-THE-SNACK:
I AM A 100% ENTREPRENEUR. YOU JUST QUESTION MY FINANCIAL STATUS BECAUSE I AM HALF YOUR AGE. FOR YOUR FAILING MEMORY, I AM 24 YEARS OLD. TRY http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/1030/memory.html
Chuck 97 GTS
Enthusiast
Hey J-Son, we don't question your financial status, only your mental status...
YellowSnake
Enthusiast
Chuck 97 GTS=
THANK YOU. I MAY BE CRAZY, BUT I'M NOT A SILVER SPOON BABY. SEE YOU GUYS AT NATIONALS.
THANK YOU. I MAY BE CRAZY, BUT I'M NOT A SILVER SPOON BABY. SEE YOU GUYS AT NATIONALS.
TurboSnake
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1bad gts:
The fastest recorded Magazine test of a Viper (11.77 at 120 )was done using a 2000(CREAMPUFF).No 96-97 ever has gone that quick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Magazine tests don't mean a thing if the cars are not tested on the same day and same track,too many variables.
The fastest recorded Magazine test of a Viper (11.77 at 120 )was done using a 2000(CREAMPUFF).No 96-97 ever has gone that quick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Magazine tests don't mean a thing if the cars are not tested on the same day and same track,too many variables.
TOOOFST
Enthusiast
Challenge the Pro's @ Nashville event.Give viper owners a chance to watch their stock or modded car run like it should!
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