fishy coolant

[fed007]

Hi All, so I have been driving my "new to me" 1995 RT for about 6 weeks now (Edmonton, Alberta). I truly love this car, all my viper dreams are coming true.

So one thing I can't stop is the desire to steer with the rear tires! every corner possible... (I'll need a good tire guy soon)

After a session of donuts and working on my driftng I find a fishy smell which is obviously older coolant (I need a flush I know ) but I can't see anything nor is the exhaust burning white.

Any ideas? - it only appears when I heat the car up real good and the coolant level seems to hold just fine... I did once find a coolant puddle about one 30 ml under the front of the car. I haven't seen this lately though.


Neil

 

[dave6666]

The reason you may not be seeing the puddle any more is that you are out of coolant. Where are you checking the level? What is the condition of your radiator cap? What does your coolant temps run via the gauge reading? Does the coolant temp respond to load and the fan etc?

 

[fed007]

Hi Dave, thx for the reply... The temp runs at 90 most times. If I drive the car hard it seems to run at about 110. It does cool down quick, just idleing after some donuts...

As for the puddle, yes I was low on coolant when I noticed it - I then topped it up. I am checking the coolant level from the reservoir, which has never been empty.

Is it possible that the problem only presents itself under high heat and engine load? is the coolant system pressure constant? or does it increase with RPM via the water pump like I think it would?

I kind of think that whatever the scenario, there is a bit of coolant hitting the hot engine because I have once seen a bit of white rising smoke from the vent hoods. (only after a session of whipping the car around).

The other thing I am thinking is that somehow the G-forces of the car spinning is allowing coolant to escape the reservoir ? there is no evidence of this.

the car has 71,000 km on it, I have put 1500 on it already with no problems. Could this be the sign of head gasket work in the near future?

Neil

 

[dave6666]

A 1995 with original head gaskets? Maybe time to look at that.

If you have steam anywhere under any conditions other than the coolant overflow overflowing, you have a leak. It is otherwise a sealed system.

I would replace the radiator cap.

The system pressure is related to the heating of the coolant not the pump rpm. Of course the system has to be sealed up to build this pressure.

How does your oil look?

Are you drifting this car with the stock oiling system (oil pan etc.)?

 

[fed007]

I am third owner. (first owner was some farmer who traded it in for a 2004 somewhere in Ontario) so I doubt he changed it - being a farmer... For sure the second owner did nothing - only fluid changes and I am questioning the coolant since it is quite fishy in smell, apparently a sign of old coolant.

I'd say the gaskets are orginal. Oil looks great.

I like your idea about maybe changing that cap. and yes the oil pan is stock from what I know. Why do you ask?

I suppose the tell tale sign is to watch the coolant level in the reservoir. and then there are two possibilities right? and external leak or an internal leak - or maybe both.

either way, is there a rate of loss that is kind of the breakpoint for service?

I did back the car up the other day and rev the **** out of it with the hood open to heat it up to try an identify a leak or something. I didn't notice any haze or white steam... but there is the faint smell. only when the car is spinning w/ high Gs it seems whic could be the cap.

Whats the risk to my engine right now? I am thinking low , but I don't want to cake up my engine with wierd glycol combustion byproducts.

Neil




Neil

 

[dave6666]

Extended high g-force maneuvers can oil starve an engine. They've made progress over the years with swing arm type pickups and deeper sumps etc. Might want to investigate that with some of the vendors here if that is going to be your new hobby.

I would suppose that any coolant leak should be considered intolerable. Up to a point maybe. If you have a leak that evaporates at the same rate it leaks then is it really a leak? Anyway, I would not ignore this and until you are satisfied you don't have a problem then keep looking for one.

On my '01 the coolant system is different, but I still have the overflow bottle in the fascia. When it is hot out and I pull in the garage I can sometimes smell a very faint coolant smell. You have to remember that the coolant overflow is vented to atmosphere and after driving will be full of hot coolant as expelled from the engine. Hot coolant has odor and the vent gives a small path for the smell.

 

[fed007]

I'll bet its the overflow. I kinda thought it would somehow be vented to atmosphere but then I though nope the cooling system must be a closed loop.

Once I thought the smell was from the passenger LOL, I took her home and told her to shower.

Neil

 

[jdeft1]

I would suspect either headgasket seepage or a tiny leak on the hoses back by the t-stat (common for leaks). Use a pressure tester (pump), put 15 lbs. on the system while cold. Look carefully for drips on the bottoms of the hose connectins (you'll have to remove the wipers and cowl). If no leaks are found after a hour or so start the engine while the pump is still in place and watch the pressure gauge on the tester pump... It should remain steady at 15 lbs.... If it jumps alot, it's a sure sign of headgasket failure... another sign of failure is a slow pressure drop but no coolant found on the floor. I don't need to say this but this test will only work if the system is full and burped.

Do that oil change! Any milkiness or seperation in the oil?

- J

 

[Martin]

My vote would be for the headgasket, too - that's a very common problem on Gen I cars. If you are going to flush the coolant anyhow (you should), you might want to consider doing a UV test first. Put the UV dye into the cooling system, do your thing with the car, and then go over the whole engine compartment with a black light. You'll see where you're leak is.

 

[AZTVR]

I'm not very familiar with the Gen I . I do know that there is a common problem with the Gen II overflow bottle in the right front bumper cover area. It is easy for it to get punctured and leak fluid. Someone can verify whether its the same for Gen I. (or maybe Dave already was saying that part of the system is the same?)
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/574076-picture-coolant-overflow-bottle.html
If you don't know that you should be filling it to the proper level rather than the reservoir with the pressure cap on it; perhaps it is empty and leaking. When you get the coolant hot enough that the cap releases it to the overflow bottle, it would then leak out and give you the smell in an unexpected location away from the engine compartment.

 

[fed007]

Thanks for all the insight guys, here's the update:

I decided to make a concerted effort to find the source. After a session in the car I parked it in my garage and opened the hood.

Every 10 seconds or so I would see a small vapor rise toward the back of the engine near the cowl.

After everything cooled down I was able to see a small puddle of coolant below the intake manifold but still sitting on top of the engine block.

So... I took it into a local dealer, I am not sure who in Edmonton Alberta are the viper specialists but I took it to one that seemed to be a fair size.

The service shop was very receptive. We pumped up the pressure and couldn't really see anything. Then they put some dye in, we topped it off sent me home to drive a bit.

I just dropped it off this morning as I will be out of town.

What are we looking at for cost if it is a head gasket? If we are tearing it down with a bunch of labor, maybe I should just supercharge it now.

Please comment

Neil

 

[mike & juli]

fed007...you should be upgraded now to VIPER OWNER with your VIN# private messaged to the moderators to upgrade ya! (Lee00blacksilvergts, kcobean, citysnake, leslie, vipertony, big-n-italian).
Congrats on your GenI RT~! (PICS???) WELCOME! Thinking about joining the Viper Club? Call 1-800-998-1110 or vipermagazine.com/name what region you'd like to join (have your VIN# handy). ~juli

 

[ACELLR8]

Thanks for all the insight guys, here's the update:

I decided to make a concerted effort to find the source. After a session in the car I parked it in my garage and opened the hood.

Every 10 seconds or so I would see a small vapor rise toward the back of the engine near the cowl.

After everything cooled down I was able to see a small puddle of coolant below the intake manifold but still sitting on top of the engine block.

So... I took it into a local dealer, I am not sure who in Edmonton Alberta are the viper specialists but I took it to one that seemed to be a fair size.

The service shop was very receptive. We pumped up the pressure and couldn't really see anything. Then they put some dye in, we topped it off sent me home to drive a bit.

I just dropped it off this morning as I will be out of town.

What are we looking at for cost if it is a head gasket? If we are tearing it down with a bunch of labor, maybe I should just supercharge it now.

Please comment

Neil

You are looking at some $ if you need the head gaskets changed. Dodge's Gen I copper gaskets are over $1000. If you do a search for Viper Specialty, I know they sell a good Gen I Viper head gasket set for under or around $200.

 

[Flexx91]

I've been there before with my '96. If the head gaskets are leaking, you will see coolant stains running down the sides of the block.

 

[GR8_ASP]

A leak in that area is typically a thermostat housing gasket or hose, but could be head gasket. A head gasket leak in that direction also has a high probability of causing leaks to engine oil. Has that been checked?

 

[ViperGeorge]

When I had a Gen II I remember having to cut down some screw that held the front fascia on. Hard driving could push the screw into the overflow tank and cause a leak. Any chance this problem exists on a Gen I?

 

[dave6666]

A leak in that area is typically a thermostat housing gasket or hose, but could be head gasket. A head gasket leak in that direction also has a high probability of causing leaks to engine oil. Has that been checked?

Wouldn't it be a good time to check the coolant for combustion gases?

 

[Steve-Indy]

Mopar full gasket set for headgasket job plus new T-stat (180) from Chuck Tator or JonB at Parts Rack about $1100.00 US (by my recollection) when we did headgaskets on 1996 Gen I.5...also bought a spare set for our 95 at same price.

Labor by our Viper Tech was about $1100.00 as well...he did a great job!!!!

 

[Stretch]

I don't have a picture but the screw below the overflow bottle is relatively close to the bottom of the bottle, but I have not looked at it in a gen 2 to see the relative difference between the two.

What color is the 95??

 

[Steve-Indy]

Black/tan interior

 

[fed007]

OK, diagnosis is in! - my baby will be fine. Turns out there is some sort of small gasket/hose that needs replacing, they mentioned "coolant pump" but I was boarding a plane so I didn't get all the info.

Parts and labor at $1100. I hope that includes a complimentary coolant flush

Pics to come soon, and maybe a youtube vid or two. The car loves to be sideways and I always oblige I am soon to be fully immersed in the viper world. I also railed a traffic circle a gforces and speed that my friend and I could not believe were even possible... this car continues to amaze me.

I have to get in on any western canada trips to Jasper or Banff... the respect viper oweners have for each other is awesome. That is immediately known when you meet another on the road.

My RT is classically red, I have seen one other red one in Edmonton this summer, a bright orange 08, a yellow one with 700 HP I presume by the plate. I drive every night.

thx for all your help~!

fed007

 

[dave6666]

$1100 for a small gasket/hose, and maybe a "coolant pump" too? And you're hoping for a complimentary flush? To what, dislodge the stiff rod they've jammed up your........?

That may not be so bad if you're getting a new water pump and they have to pull the intake to get to the leaking hose, but damn, $1.1K for a hose and gasket is...

 

[fed007]

lol, I'll get more details, maybe you are right... but I need to tool up and get more comfortable tearing it apart myself. Given this case, early in the summer, new owner... I am looking to outsource and until I have a relationship with a service manager I am just another guy to rip off.

I wish I had my service manual here w/me at work though. I have a feeling I could easily do this myself and just get the shop to diagnose for me.

Does anyone know where I can score a PDF version?

fed007

 

[dave6666]

Not aware they have the manual on pdf, but I bought a Mitchell CD version off an auction site that must be close to water, because they use bay in their name.

 

[fed007]

I'll check the E section of the bay area, hehe.

 

[1994viper]

I had a similar problem with a coolant leak near the near the back of the motor under the cowl. That is where a thermostat assembly is located. The first time I dumped some coolant through a gasket there, I had to replaced it at a similar cost. (The intake manifold had to come off) only to have the coolant leaking 1500 km later, seemingly from the same location. The actual problem laid within the thermostat assembly itself. After years of going though heat cycles, the housing warped. Apparently it was composed of two different grades of metal. Now, I had to get the whole new housing (back and front) and a new thermostat while at. So you should make sure that it is not a housing is warped, or you might end up paying twice for the labour. The cost of the new parts weren’t bad, so might as well replace the whole thing, if that where the problem started.

Did you get your car in Greater Toronto Area? Last year, I test drove a 95 Red RT/10 that was apparently was owned by a farmer before the guy who was selling it.
Good luck with the repairs.