Front Fascia Alignment and other Issues

[Tom and Vipers]

I have the thankless task of fitting the front fascia and headlights to a fairly distorted carbon fibre hood.

I've gotten the hood aligned pretty good to the doors and sills.

1) The fascia has to move up 1/2" (At this point, the hood is already touching the tops of the wheel wells so it is not possible to lower the hood - of course this would mess up the sill gap.)

2) The headlights have to move up 1/2"

3) Looking down on top of the front end: the headlight inboard fore/aft gap with the fascia is about 5/8" while the outboard gap is touching.
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I've been reading the board postings about this stuff for about 2 hours now and have come to the following conclusions:

1) DO NOT MOVE THE RADIATOR CORE SUPPORT!

2) Raise the fascia by raising the bumper and slotting the wheel well screws.

3) Raise the headlights with shims.

But the issue of the inboard/outboard fore/aft headlight assembly alignment is not clear:

1) I don't think there is anything I can do with the fascia since it is a fiberglass (does not bend) H'man.

2) If I move the inboard headlight end forward over 1/2", I am concerned I will not be able to adjust this out with the lens assembly adjustment.
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One other pain in the neck is getting the fiberglass fascia lip OVER the wheel wells! The last time I did this, I cracked the fascia at the outboard hood/fascia gap where the "flat horizontal fascia triangle" vertex transitions into an edge. (This is the aftmost, top, outboard feature of the fascia.)

There is an inner baffle that makes things even more interesting. (I don't think you can remove this fascia with the bumper attached due to this.)
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I'll try to post some pictures of this in the next day or two.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Tom.....call me? This is such a VERY TIMELY post, and I think we can help each other (probably you help me more than I help you!!!). Check your PM for number.

 

[hemibeep]

whew.....I remember trying to get mine right....still trying. on the front facia, I installed one side first and then wrapped the other over. But it still wanted to rip the little triangle delta parts you are talking about. Maybe laying the facia in the sun to let a little heat on it....just enough to let in bend without the cracking...good luck

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Here is the TOP VIEW where you can see the terrible headlight assembly leading edge gap. If I move the inboard end forward enough to make a good gap, I'm not sure I'll be able to correct the beam alighnment. I don't think there is any way to warp the fascia since it is fiberglass:

Here is the SIDE VIEW where you can see the vertical gap between the hood/fascia and the hood/headlight. The hood cannot be lowered because it is hitting high points of the wheel wells and maybe engine manifold. I am going to look to see if any of these contacts can be eliminated. I wouldn't think twice about gnawing down a wheel well high point. I can raise the back edge of the hood at least .200" which will lower the hood front .050 to .075 inches. The only other thing I can think to do is raise the fascia. Frankly, getting a little more ground clearance would not be a bad thing either:

 

[ViperJoe]

Man.......and I thought I had problems with my 1/2" gap at the leading edge of the hood to the top of the fascia side!

Best of luck in getting it corrected!

 

[hemibeep]

If it were me, (and it was) I raised the core support. If you hood is all the way down and the facia is still that far below the hood, I would shim the core support up. If you do the bumper reinforce. upward adjustment, you still won't take car of the gap at the sides(delta triangle area). There are factory shims to go under the core support and raise it, leaving the rubber isolators in place.

 

[AviP]

There a lot of adjustment points to play with. The headache is in getting it all together in one attempt.

- Bumper core is shimmed. I don't suggest changing this unless you have frame damage. Then you will have to go thru' a lot more iterations unless someone has a better idea.
- Bumper side frame (cross brace?) is adjustable at the side bolts. It's a pain but doable.
- Headlights are fully adjustable up/down (shims) and forward/backward/sideways (variable mounting points).
- Hood is adjustable at the front for height.

Between all this you should get a reasonably nice setup with <1/4" gaps at the hood/fascia and <1/8" holes around the headlamps.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Hemibeep,

The more I think about it, raising the core support will solve a lot of the problems. Are there any issues with the wheel wells when you do this?

Avip,

Could you please explain further your terms "Bumper Core" and "Bumper side frame (cross brace?)"

 

[AviP]

Bumper core is that solid greenish fiberglass(?) chunk that you see once you remove the front fascia. It fastens to the frame with 4 big bolts&nuts. It can be shimmed.

Bumper side frame is that diagonal/cross piece you see in front of wheels and under the headlights. I don't have a better term for it. If I remember correctly, it fixes with 2 bolts that have a variable mount point of about 3/8" at each end. Adjusting it correctly pulls the fascia ends tight with the hood when viewed from above. It also helps the alignment from the front view but not as much. Sorry I don't have pics.

If you have pics of an exposed front end without fascia, I'll point it to you.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Thanks AviP, I'll post a pic when I get the fascia off.

Today I started taking all the lifting featherfill off the hood. A lot is coming off with a pressure washer.

(... prettu Ghetto, I know!)

 

[hemibeep]

The core support has the headlights attached. also the inner fender pieces are attached, and I believe I had to adjust the slots on these slightly. there are two bolts per side that attach the core support to the frame. adjusting core support will correct healights and facia end height, then you can adjust bumper height with bumper reinforcement. On the bumper shims, this is forward and back shims, looks like you may only need to go up, which will not require shims. On those diagonal braces under the headlights, I did not really use them for adjustment (but they may help), I just thought of them as support for the outer edges of the facia.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

I'm also thinking of setting the back of the hood a little high due to desirable cooling effect of the resulting increased gap along bottom of windshield.

Also, pretty much decided to do the Archer (I think) fascia tap w/hood Dzus "latch" to tie down the hood/fascia @ outboard headlight. (Am looking for a Camlock that takes a couple turns that is good for chear loading. Aircraft maintenance friend told me about them, they're about $30 each, tho.)

I would like to know how Archer(?) fastens that tab - or how other people do. Of course, I will come up with my own thoughts.

Right now I'm at a standstill - severe allergy attachs with all the sagebrush/rabbit bush around. Ugh.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

I'm looking at the raising the radiator core support (RCS) and am really mad that the shop manual does not include R&Ring this part. I have found 3 attachment points per side:

There is a bracket in the wheelwell that connects the RCS to the frame. 4 bolts, 2 on each leg of the 90 angle bracket:

There are 2 bolts under the headlight horizontal mounting surface that go to the frame (the bottom bolt is half obscured by the wiring harness in the picture):

Now here is the mystery. There are shims establishing the RCS overall height which are located at the front end of the frame rails. What is odd is that these shims appear to be floating - there are no bolts fastening the RCS to the frame at this location.

The $64 question is it possible to raise the RCS 3/8" and slide 3/8" worth of shims in?

I don't think it is possible because the front end of the shims can be slide left and right and are trapped by the contour of the RCS. The aft end of the shims have no such entrapment but cannot be shifted laterally. This suggests there is a pin or bolt holding them in place. If it is a bolt, the radiator must be removed to expose the bolt. If it is a pin, what is the length of the pin? If the pin is 3/4" long, I'll have to raise the RCS an additional amount to clear the pin over the additional shims.

What makes this more difficult is that the engine oil cooler lines go thru a little window that closes with RCS upward motion. In fact, 1/4" raising of the RCS will touch those lines.

Here's a picture of these frame shims:

 

[AviP]

While I can't answer the main question you have posed, I can point it to what I referred to as the bumper side frame (cross brace). Note that it's mount points at both ends are variable.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Thanks AviP, I realized what you were talking about as soon as I got the fascia off.

Next question:

The horizontal bolts that fasten the RCS to the frame: Are the holes fixed or on sliding nut plates?

If they are fixed, I can use the bolt head for an approximate reference. If not, I will have to mark the position of the brackets, etc. so that I only move them in a vertical direction.

 

[AviP]

I believe they are fixed but it's been such a long time that I've forgotten for sure. I suggest you mark/outline the position with a scratch awl or pencil.

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

I remember seeing Waynes car at the Nashville VOI. I don't think even a bomb could realign the hood and fascia. Those Henn essey pieces were terribly made!!! Sorry for no help to ya.

 

[hemibeep]

Horizontal bolt question. No. not in sliding nuts. these are self tapping, tapered screws. There is a lot of slop in those brackets and you can make a lot of adjustments vertically.

I did add shims under the RCS as those are just the rubber isolators for the radiator and condensor. as far as the oil cooler lines. they will begin to interfere,,,so I did grind some of the RCS to make clearance.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Hoosier,

Are you sure about Nashville? I think I owned it back then.

Hemi,

Those frame shims below the radiator: There must be some kind of pin or bolt or something under the radiator because I can't slide them out. If I tug on one with pliers, I can see I'm pulling the RCS along with the shim. Looks like the radiator has to come out.

 

[hemibeep]

probably the rubber isolator going through the shim. If you loosen the two rad bolts and lean it back, it should lift high enough to release the rubber isolators as they are just a straight pin into the rubber. Also the condens. has pins into the rubber isolators at the bottom. I had to bend the triangle piece at the top of the condens. to get it out. If you lift both just up/out a little they will release the rubber isolators.

 

[ken86]

you should be able to loosen all the bolts you mentioned and pry up on the rcs(easy its made of fiberglass) and add shims between lower frame rail and rcs. the shims are centered on two rubber nubs probably the bottom of theradiator mounts. i just did all this last weekend. i am rebuilding a 2000 gts that was in a front end collision

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Am starting to slot the RCS horizontal bolt holes.

Came up with clever idea to produce a perfectly vertical slot: hang a 13/64" points and ignition wrench on the bolt. Gravity makes it hang vertically. Scribe both sides and you get a 1/4" wide, vertically, aligned slot.

 

[GTS Dean]

The first thing to remember about aligning gen1/2 front end bodywork is that the hood controls. Start from the door gaps and side sills. Then, try the fascia using the slotted bolt holes on the front upper frame rails. The fascia should be attached to the bumper support, with the nylon shims installed. The shims control the fore/aft gap between the hood and the fascia, between the headlights. The flat plates on the frame horns allow up/down and left/right adjustment of the fascia.

When the middle of the fascia is good, turn your attention to the outer corners. The "90 degree brackets" are used to coarse-adjust the RCS in or out to match the hood. The purpose of the "cross brace" is to bring the outer corners of the fascia up to match the hood corners behind the headlights. The inner ends rotate, the outer ends slide. This is a fine adjustment.

Next, you remove the fascia and install the headlights to fit the holes. Shim them up to try and close the gap to the hood on top of the lamp housings. Then, reinstall the fascia and check to see if the lamp housings fit the inner corners (tear duct area) at the hood leading edge and fascia center.

If the headlight buckets are too low, THEN you shim the core support up and rework the 90 degree wheelwell brackets and the cross braces.

Much of the previous BS may fly straight out the window if you are running a rigid fiberglas or carbon fiber front fascia.

If you're working by yourself, you'll probably NEVER get it right.

Best of luck......

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Thanks Dean!! I was just getting ready to print that till your last disclaimer!

The fascia I have (and I think Tom has) comes from the great state of Texas, is fiberglass, is rigid relative to a stoker...and WILL look friggin awesome once it is complete (whenever THAT is!!!).

Seriously...I printed that for the guy installing, thanks!!

 

[GTS Dean]

See - I stay away for a month hanging at the other place, stop by, look around, and drop a useful tidbit on the mORG courtesy of the Alley!

 

[Tom and Vipers]

GTS Dean,

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I'm dealing with a warped H'man "rigid" fascia that I actually cracked taking off - it is that hard to get over the RCS wheel well edges.

My head is spinning with all the possibilities, but I'm inserting my comments/concerns in your previous posting:

The first thing to remember about aligning gen1/2 front end bodywork is that the hood controls. Start from the door gaps and side sills. <font color="red"> (yep)</font> Then, try the fascia using the slotted bolt holes on the front upper frame rails. <font color="red"> (Are you referring to the RCS "slotted bolt holes on the front upper frame rails?" I'm not aware of any such fascia slotted bolt holes.) </font> The fascia should be attached to the bumper support, with the nylon shims installed. <font color="red"> (k) </font> The shims control the fore/aft gap between the hood and the fascia, between the headlights. <font color="red"> (k) </font> The flat plates on the frame horns allow up/down and left/right adjustment of the fascia. <font color="red"> ("The flat plates on the frame horns" are those the RCS lower shims? POINT 1: If so, they do control the RCS up/down, however, the left/right RCS is controlled by the horizontal bolt shim packs on the upper frames, right? POINT 2: But the bumper controls the fascia center vertical height, NOT the RCS height, right? You have to slot the bumper up/down to get the correct fascia center height, right?) </font>

When the middle of the fascia is good, turn your attention to the outer corners. <font color="red"> (k) </font> The "90 degree brackets" are used to coarse-adjust the RCS in or out to match the hood. <font color="red"> (This "in/out" is fore/aft, right?) </font> The purpose of the "cross brace" is to bring the outer corners of the fascia up to match the hood corners behind the headlights. <font color="red"> (up/down, right?) </font> The inner ends rotate, the outer ends slide. This is a fine adjustment. <font color="red"> (The issues here is that it is a fine adjustment. If the fascia center and healight, outboard, hood gap, vertical alignments are off, you can't really correct them - if you're dealing with a rigid fascia. HOWEVER, from what I understand, if you get the fascia center height good, you can riase the RCS to close the outboard, headlight fascia/hood gap IF the cross braces cannot accomplish this, but ONLY for a non-rigid fascia.) </font>

Next, you remove the fascia and install the headlights to fit the holes. Shim them up to try and close the gap to the hood on top of the lamp housings. <font color="red"> (k) </font> Then, reinstall the fascia and check to see if the lamp housings fit the inner corners (tear duct area) at the hood leading edge and fascia center. <font color="red"> (k) </font>

If the headlight buckets are too low, THEN you shim the core support up and rework the 90 degree wheelwell brackets and the cross braces. <font color="red">(I don't get this part. I would think that if the buckets are too HIGH relative to the fascia, then you shim the RCS up? Further, it sounds like you are going to shim the RCS up WITHOUT moving the bumper bar up an equivalent amount? I suppose with a polyeurethane fascia you can move the bumper up/down relative to the RCS and the fascia will simply bend. With a fiberglass fascia, that doesn't work too good, right? ...at least I probably should experiment with that and see what is possible.

My starting point was the headlights w/o shims were about the right elevation for the fascia but the fascia center, headlights, and outboard gap all indicated the fascia needed to go up as a rigid body, hence the RCS raising.) </font>

Much of the previous BS may fly straight out the window if you are running a rigid fiberglas or carbon fiber front fascia. <font color="red"> (It gets totally, Resident Evil when you are doing a WARPED C/F hood! The warping issue is that the outboard fascia/hood gap is excessive on both sides, however, the RHS has about 1/2" MORE GAP than the LHS. My Ultimate Solution is to fab latches in this area. I'm torn between latches and the vertical tap/Dzus that Archer (I think) uses in this area. The latches would be a lot sexier, however attaching the hook to the hood is an challenging fab since we're talking tension and shear on the inner surface of the hood - i.e., bonding is not good enough.) </font>

If you're working by yourself, you'll probably NEVER get it right.

Best of luck......

_________________

Another question: How do you handle a RCS lower frame rail shim pack that is taller than the rubber pins that are supposed to trap the shims?

TIP: The shape of the A/C condenser rubber pins at the lower RCS/frame are the same as the center rubber bumper on the top of the A/C condenser.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

I'm going to revise my understanding of the action of the 90deg bracket and the cross brace:

I was just playing around with the effects each of these have and I really have to say that the primary adjustment is a fore/aft of the outboard, top of the RCS (call it Location X). This is achieved by bending the Radiator Closure Panel (RCP) portion of the RCS at the upper frame notch of the RCS.

Here's how to look at this inter-relation:

BRACKET FREE:

RCP fore/aft stiffness at X is very weak and easily deflected by the brace. Vertical X stiffness is orders of magnitude greater and hence there is no vertical deflection.

BRACKET FIXED:

RCP fore/aft stiffness at X is very high and of the same order as the vertical stiffness at X.

Therefore, he brace then acts on X with 2 substantial components: fore/aft and up/down.

The fore/aft component is due to the brace angle viewed from the top while the up/down component is due to the brace angle viewed from the front.

The primary component is associated with the greater brace angle - the one associated with fore/aft.

Any brace adjustment causes a resultant which includes mostly a fore/aft adjustment with a little up/down.

If you want to set the height at X, you must raise/lower the RCS by adjusting the shim packs trapped by the condenser and radiator lower frame rubber isolators.
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Further the shear stiffness of the bottom plate or cap of the RCS/RCP structure prohibits any fore/aft RELATIVE adjustment along the bottom of the RCS/RCP.
______________________________________

I also believe that loosening the brace and bracket will allow the rigid fiberglass fascia to be more easily snapped over the RCP. This is a very nasty step.

 

[GTS Dean]

GTS Dean,

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I'm dealing with a warped H'man "rigid" fascia that I actually cracked taking off - it is that hard to get over the RCS wheel well edges.

*Sorry, all my experience has been with the OEM flexible fascia.*

My head is spinning with all the possibilities, but I'm inserting my comments/concerns in your previous posting:

</font> Then, try the fascia using the slotted bolt holes on the front upper frame rails. <font color="red"> (Are you referring to the RCS "slotted bolt holes on the front upper frame rails?" I'm not aware of any such fascia slotted bolt holes.) </font>

*No, these are the main UPPER frame horn front mounting plates - ahead of where the hood bracket attaches. The entire bumper/fascia assembly bolts to these points. From hazy memory, these allow only vertical adjustment. There are adapter plates bolted to the heavy green fiberglas bumper support. These allow lateral adjustment of the fascia. The large nylon shims sandwich between these flat plates to control the hood-to-fascia gap, which should be about 1/4".*

The fascia should be attached to the bumper support, with the nylon shims installed. <font color="red"> (k) </font> The shims control the fore/aft gap between the hood and the fascia, between the headlights. <font color="red"> (k) </font> The flat plates on the frame horns allow up/down and left/right adjustment of the fascia. <font color="red"> ("The flat plates on the frame horns" are those the RCS lower shims?

*NO! See above.*

POINT 1: If so, they do control the RCS up/down, however, the left/right RCS is controlled by the horizontal bolt shim packs on the upper frames, right?

*The lower frame rails (that the radiator and RCS rest on have shim packs in them. These are the ones to adjust last, after trying to get the headlight pods up to the hood with the steel shim packs.*


POINT 2: But the bumper controls the fascia center vertical height, NOT the RCS height, right? You have to slot the bumper up/down to get the correct fascia center height, right?) </font>

When the middle of the fascia is good, turn your attention to the outer corners. <font color="red"> (k) </font> The "90 degree brackets" are used to coarse-adjust the RCS in or out to match the hood. <font color="red"> (This "in/out" is fore/aft, right?) </font>

*Yes*

The purpose of the "cross brace" is to bring the outer corners of the fascia up to match the hood corners behind the headlights. <font color="red"> (up/down, right?) </font>

*PLUS in or out at the corners.*

The inner ends rotate, the outer ends slide. This is a fine adjustment. <font color="red"> (The issues here is that it is a fine adjustment. If the fascia center and healight, outboard, hood gap, vertical alignments are off, you can't really correct them - if you're dealing with a rigid fascia. HOWEVER, from what I understand, if you get the fascia center height good, you can riase the RCS to close the outboard, headlight fascia/hood gap IF the cross braces cannot accomplish this, but ONLY for a non-rigid fascia.) </font>

*Yes, that's about the size of it.*

Next, you remove the fascia and install the headlights to fit the holes. Shim them up to try and close the gap to the hood on top of the lamp housings. <font color="red"> (k) </font> Then, reinstall the fascia and check to see if the lamp housings fit the inner corners (tear duct area) at the hood leading edge and fascia center. <font color="red"> (k) </font>

If the headlight buckets are too low, THEN you shim the core support up and rework the 90 degree wheelwell brackets and the cross braces. <font color="red">(I don't get this part. I would think that if the buckets are too HIGH relative to the fascia, then you shim the RCS up? Further, it sounds like you are going to shim the RCS up WITHOUT moving the bumper bar up an equivalent amount? I suppose with a polyeurethane fascia you can move the bumper up/down relative to the RCS and the fascia will simply bend. With a fiberglass fascia, that doesn't work too good, right? ...at least I probably should experiment with that and see what is possible.

My starting point was the headlights w/o shims were about the right elevation for the fascia but the fascia center, headlights, and outboard gap all indicated the fascia needed to go up as a rigid body, hence the RCS raising.) </font>

Much of the previous BS may fly straight out the window if you are running a rigid fiberglas or carbon fiber front fascia. <font color="red"> (It gets totally, Resident Evil when you are doing a WARPED C/F hood! The warping issue is that the outboard fascia/hood gap is excessive on both sides, however, the RHS has about 1/2" MORE GAP than the LHS. My Ultimate Solution is to fab latches in this area. I'm torn between latches and the vertical tap/Dzus that Archer (I think) uses in this area. The latches would be a lot sexier, however attaching the hook to the hood is an challenging fab since we're talking tension and shear on the inner surface of the hood - i.e., bonding is not good enough.) </font>

*If you look at the racing GTS-R, you'll notice that they have Dzus toggle latches at the hood/headlight corners, but the stresses you mention are real and must be dealt with somehow. Lots of F2000 body panels have constant tension springs in the latch assembly.*

________________

Another question: How do you handle a RCS lower frame rail shim pack that is taller than the rubber pins that are supposed to trap the shims?

TIP: The shape of the A/C condenser rubber pins at the lower RCS/frame are the same as the center rubber bumper on the top of the A/C condenser.

You sound like an analytical guy - I'm sure you can figure something out...

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Yeah Dean, my head is about to explode too!

FINALLY, I figured out what you were saying regarding bumper vertical adjustment!

It turnes out the pair of upper frame, forward facing stud pairs that the bumper adapter bracket attaches to - the studs that have the shim pack to adjust the bumper fore/aft. THOSE STUDS ARE NOT FIXED!

It turns out they are in vertical slots!

At 80k miles, the sand and dirt are so great, you have to use a hammer to move them!

This is quite a find because I was about to slot the bumper adapter plates!

(The only downside is that there isn't enough vertical travel, so I'll have to extend those slots about 3/16 inch. What ***** is that the studs are basically carriage bolts that are held in the slot by "clip washers" on the first plastic shim plate. These washers are virtually crimped on the stud. The trick will be getting them off so that they can be reused.)

Great news. Glad you joined in!

Much thanks,
Tom

PS. Any thoughts about containing a RCS vertical shim pack that is taller than the rubber isolation nubs?

 

[GTS Dean]

UHMW or Delrin rods + lathe.