Silver Snake
Enthusiast
How often does this need to be done and how is it done? I assume it is more than just dumping something into the tank.
Thanks
Mark
Thanks
Mark
Fuel Injector Service
- Thread starter Silver Snake
- Start date
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
How often does this need to be done and how is it done? I assume it is more than just dumping something into the tank.
Thanks
Mark
Mark, to be honest I'm suprised I don't see more of these posts. With all the low mileage Vipers I am sure fuel in the injectors turns to varnish since they are left sitting for weeks with out even being started. With that said I would recommend sending the injectors to RC Engineering. I was very happy with their service. They are in Torrance CA.
20807 Higgins Court
Torrance, CA. 90501
Phone (310) 320-2277
Fax (310) 782-1346
Here is their web site
They can service your injectors. Simply ship them to them. I think it is around $24 each but gives some peace of mind that they are operating as they should be.
They provide a printed before and after cleaning report showing spray pattern and flow rates for EACH injector.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Years ago the EPA mandated additives in all gasoline sold in the US to keep injectors clean. The reason was emissions - plugged injectors are unequal in volume delivery and the feedback system can only regulate the average. Therefore some cylinders would run rich or lean, contributing to higher emissions.
Gasoline will be slow to oxidize while vehicles sit, since they are not hot. You may experience gasoline decomposition over a long winter in your lawnmower, but more than likely the hard starting is because the more volatile components have evaporated and there isn't sufficient vapor to ignite. Weeks of inactivity should never cause a problem.
For example, the industry standard fuel injector plugging test uses a 2.2L Chrysler turbo. The dyno cycle simulates 15min at 55MPH, then engine off for 45min. The injectors near the turbo cook the fuel. Plugging can occur within a few thousand miles.
Gasoline marketers have unfortunately found ways to minimize this additive "cost" and deposit complaints are again becoming more prevalent, though not what they once were. Recently a new performance criteria approved by the US OEMs called "Top Tier Detergent Gasoline" was established to get back to a way gasoline marketers can differentiate themselves. Now some can say that they have "enough detergent to satisfy the OEMs" rather than just saying they "have some detergent" (which anyone in the US can say, since it's a requirement.) This higher level will certainly keep injectors clean and should also clean them up.
Injectors can be cleaned very well with additives in the tank; there isn't a chemical treatment conducted externally that does better than a good "full fuel system treatment" bottle. The fuel rail or external cleaning merely saves you the trouble of driving while cleaning and you lose the "aha!" feeling of a sudden change because they are cleaned over a few hundred miles.
The only trick is to look for a bottle that says "complete fuel system cleaner" and do NOT bother with fuel injector cleaner. The difference between all these products is the additive treat rate; they all use one of two types (or both) and then only in different amounts. Here's the secret: any detergent at a low dose can clean carburetors... a little more and it cleans injectors, too. More yet and it can clean intake valves also. Add some more and it can clean intake ports and start to clean combustion chambers. It is essentially dose related, not different chemistries. So make sure you get the bottle that implies "complete" or "total" fuel system cleanliness.
As a highly proactive approach, add a bottle to your tank every time you change the oil, but before you change it. The reason is that much of the fuel additive finds it's way into the engine oil and you would be better off not carrying it around in the oil for the entire drain interval.
Gasoline will be slow to oxidize while vehicles sit, since they are not hot. You may experience gasoline decomposition over a long winter in your lawnmower, but more than likely the hard starting is because the more volatile components have evaporated and there isn't sufficient vapor to ignite. Weeks of inactivity should never cause a problem.
For example, the industry standard fuel injector plugging test uses a 2.2L Chrysler turbo. The dyno cycle simulates 15min at 55MPH, then engine off for 45min. The injectors near the turbo cook the fuel. Plugging can occur within a few thousand miles.
Gasoline marketers have unfortunately found ways to minimize this additive "cost" and deposit complaints are again becoming more prevalent, though not what they once were. Recently a new performance criteria approved by the US OEMs called "Top Tier Detergent Gasoline" was established to get back to a way gasoline marketers can differentiate themselves. Now some can say that they have "enough detergent to satisfy the OEMs" rather than just saying they "have some detergent" (which anyone in the US can say, since it's a requirement.) This higher level will certainly keep injectors clean and should also clean them up.
Injectors can be cleaned very well with additives in the tank; there isn't a chemical treatment conducted externally that does better than a good "full fuel system treatment" bottle. The fuel rail or external cleaning merely saves you the trouble of driving while cleaning and you lose the "aha!" feeling of a sudden change because they are cleaned over a few hundred miles.
The only trick is to look for a bottle that says "complete fuel system cleaner" and do NOT bother with fuel injector cleaner. The difference between all these products is the additive treat rate; they all use one of two types (or both) and then only in different amounts. Here's the secret: any detergent at a low dose can clean carburetors... a little more and it cleans injectors, too. More yet and it can clean intake valves also. Add some more and it can clean intake ports and start to clean combustion chambers. It is essentially dose related, not different chemistries. So make sure you get the bottle that implies "complete" or "total" fuel system cleanliness.
As a highly proactive approach, add a bottle to your tank every time you change the oil, but before you change it. The reason is that much of the fuel additive finds it's way into the engine oil and you would be better off not carrying it around in the oil for the entire drain interval.
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
Ok Tom
Then please explain flow rates changing before and after cleaning. Are you saying its just BS to get money?
I can understand if a vehicle is maintained properly over time and NOT allowed to sit stagnant for weeks and months. However, in the case of an older say 94 - 99 vehicle that has maybe 10k miles that is a lot of time sitting. How can you be sure the injectors are spraying properly?
In my case I saw what I would consider dramatic changes that I would not trust a bottle of Autozone cleaner to take care of.
For example:
Before Cleaning
Inj# CC/Min Pattern
6 155.0 Dripping
7 238.0 Good
8 214.0 Dripping
After Cleaning
Inj# CC/Min Pattern
6 244.0 Excellent
7 246.0 Excellent
8 245.0 Excellent
Then please explain flow rates changing before and after cleaning. Are you saying its just BS to get money?
I can understand if a vehicle is maintained properly over time and NOT allowed to sit stagnant for weeks and months. However, in the case of an older say 94 - 99 vehicle that has maybe 10k miles that is a lot of time sitting. How can you be sure the injectors are spraying properly?
In my case I saw what I would consider dramatic changes that I would not trust a bottle of Autozone cleaner to take care of.
For example:
Before Cleaning
Inj# CC/Min Pattern
6 155.0 Dripping
7 238.0 Good
8 214.0 Dripping
After Cleaning
Inj# CC/Min Pattern
6 244.0 Excellent
7 246.0 Excellent
8 245.0 Excellent
SNKEBIT
Enthusiast
read paragraph #5 in Tom's post again,,,,, slowly
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
read paragraph #5 in Tom's post again,,,,, slowly
read paragraph #2 in My post again,,,,, slowly
I am a show me kind of guy. I don't trust it if I don't see documented results.
You can tell me my injectors are being cleaned, but can you tell me what they are flowing?
Oh and FYI I did do a fuel addatives on several occasions. Seems like the results were less than satisfactory to me.
You be sure and use them though and I'm sure your injectors will function perfectly for the next 50 years.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
For cars that run, even a few thousand miles a year, it's BS to get more of your money. Listen to a dealer service manager try to convince people to include fuel injector services for $100 before the car even comes in the shop. It's simply extremely profitable.
The chemical fact is gasoline does not oxidize and turn to varnish in a matter of weeks or months if it's not exposed to the air, as would be the case in fuel injectors. Decomposition rates are not high if there is no engine heat to promote polymerization. Carburetors and gas tanks are vented, so that's a little different, although year-old gasoline should still be fine (other than hard to start.)
Consumers tend to complain badly when a single injector is plugged between 10% and 20%. The dyno test criteria is 10% plugged. 155ml/min is almost 40% plugged. Gasoline-caused problems plug injectors but only over thousands of miles. Plugging 10% in less than 5000 miles is an extremely severe fuel that the industry experts have difficulty duplicating using gasoline components. It's only achieved at quicker rates by doping the fuel. What was the driver feedback during this time? What was the fuel?
A 1996 or newer vehicle with OBD-II would have also flashed a check engine light with that severe a problem. The vibration and RPM variation trigger the diagnostics.
If the plugging was due to rust or debris caught in the screen filter of the injector, no, an additive doesn't fix this. But then just cleaning the injectors without finding the source of debris is a little foolish, too. A bottle of stuff also won't tell you the flow rate of your cleaned injectors. From a performance point, all you need is that they are all the same.
I tried to point out what to look for on the label. I hesitate to recommend brands, but besides a "total" system cleaner, get one from a major, reputable, large, famous company that has been in the business for a long time and maybe makes the stuff themselves because they are an oil company or a chemical company.
Finally, I don't mean to criticize your election to remove the injectors and have them cleaned; it's in the same arena as those that change their oil every 1000 miles or have their used oil analyzed frequently. My response is mainly to put some facts on the table and some boundaries on reasonable examples.
The chemical fact is gasoline does not oxidize and turn to varnish in a matter of weeks or months if it's not exposed to the air, as would be the case in fuel injectors. Decomposition rates are not high if there is no engine heat to promote polymerization. Carburetors and gas tanks are vented, so that's a little different, although year-old gasoline should still be fine (other than hard to start.)
Consumers tend to complain badly when a single injector is plugged between 10% and 20%. The dyno test criteria is 10% plugged. 155ml/min is almost 40% plugged. Gasoline-caused problems plug injectors but only over thousands of miles. Plugging 10% in less than 5000 miles is an extremely severe fuel that the industry experts have difficulty duplicating using gasoline components. It's only achieved at quicker rates by doping the fuel. What was the driver feedback during this time? What was the fuel?
A 1996 or newer vehicle with OBD-II would have also flashed a check engine light with that severe a problem. The vibration and RPM variation trigger the diagnostics.
If the plugging was due to rust or debris caught in the screen filter of the injector, no, an additive doesn't fix this. But then just cleaning the injectors without finding the source of debris is a little foolish, too. A bottle of stuff also won't tell you the flow rate of your cleaned injectors. From a performance point, all you need is that they are all the same.
I tried to point out what to look for on the label. I hesitate to recommend brands, but besides a "total" system cleaner, get one from a major, reputable, large, famous company that has been in the business for a long time and maybe makes the stuff themselves because they are an oil company or a chemical company.
Finally, I don't mean to criticize your election to remove the injectors and have them cleaned; it's in the same arena as those that change their oil every 1000 miles or have their used oil analyzed frequently. My response is mainly to put some facts on the table and some boundaries on reasonable examples.
