gen 4 camshaft specs please.

[Moundir]

Can anyone tell me what the cam specs in my 2008 are? Will this cam make power up to or above 7500 rpms, or does the power fall off before then? Looking to build something crazy with my 08 but wanted to keep the stock cam for street-ability purposes and to remain under the radar Has anyone built a high reving gen 4 yet? Was it done with the stock cam in cam or was that changed? Thanks for any help and or info

 

[Green viper 1]

Do one for gen 3 I want one

 

[Nader]

Remember the genIV is not a "CONVENTIONAL" OHV engine since the cam lift and duration is variable. At roughly 3700 RPM the cam adjusts and creates more lift and duration to create more power on the top end. I am sure someone will chine in for more clarity. Dan where are you when needed?

 

[plumcrazy]

this question has dans name all over it...

 

[Viper Specialty]

Ha, the irony. I saw this post title and said the same thing Plum.

The short answer is, I haven't put it through a cam calculator yet, but we will have an exact answer to this soon, as we will (hopefully) be offering custom Gen-4 cams before too long. I have all of the articulation information, lift, and intake centerline, but I do not have duration information yet.

The Gen-4 cam has a static intake & exhaust lift/duration, static intake centerline, and a variable exhaust centerline. Basically, the exhaust lobes can be moved around allowing the lobe separation angle to be changed on the fly. In general, this can be used to tame a large intake lobe by decreasing overlap, or increase top end power by increasing overlap.

Assuming we are talking N/A here, and it sounds like you are given they are N/A questions and practices for the most part, without the ability to directly test an N/A car at those RPM's, I would venture to say that it would still make good power, but neither the cam nor manifold especially are optimized for that RPM range. The Mopar Drag Engine is Gen-4 based, albeit on a big custom non-articulating cam and with low accessory drag, and makes around 800 crank. I would be willing to bet a custom grind articulating cam, 7K+ RPM, ported manifold, stand-alone ECU controlled Gen-4 would be able to do the same, probably before even getting into head work, and would drive a whole lot better than the race version making the same numbers.

The big advantage here with the Gen-4 is that a Gen-4 with the proper engine management could absolutely be made to produce more power, and drive better than ANY normally aspirated Vipers to date. The ability to run large camshafts that idle with low to no overlap making them stable and produce good vacuum, which can close up and increase overlap at high RPM's is a huge asset. Unfortunately, even 5 years into this, I am not aware of even a single Gen-4 that has a truly capable engine management system that is NOT built for forced induction... for obvious dollar and cents reasons.

On that note, for anything north of 7.5K RPM, I would absolutely recommend a dry-sump for the long haul- this will also net a small power increase by default. However, anything above 7K RPM, you should already be looking at the rotating assembly.

 

[Moundir]

Ha, the irony. I saw this post title and said the same thing Plum.

The short answer is, I haven't put it through a cam calculator yet, but we will have an exact answer to this soon. I have all of the articulation information, lift, and intake centerline, but I do not have duration information yet.

The Gen-4 cam has a static intake & exhaust lift/duration, static intake centerline, and a variable exhaust centerline. Basically, the exhaust lobes can be moved around allowing the lobe separation angle to be changed on the fly. In general, this can be used to tame a large intake lobe by decreasing overlap, or increase top end power by increasing overlap.

Without the ability to directly test an N/A car at those RPM's, I would venture to say that it would still make good power, but neither the cam nor manifold especially are optimized for that RPM range. The Mopar Drag Engine is Gen-4 based, albeit on a big custom non-articulating cam and with low accessory drag, and makes around 800 crank. I would be willing to bet a custom cam, 7K+ RPM, ported manifold, stand-alone ECU controlled Gen-4 would be able to do the same, probably before even getting into head work.

The big advantage here with the Gen-4 is that a Gen-4 with the proper engine management could absolutely be made to produce more power, and drive better than ANY normally aspirated Vipers to date. The ability to run large camshafts that idle with low to no overlap making them stable and produce good vacuum, which can close up and increase overlap at high RPM's is a huge asset. Unfortunately, even 5 years into this, I am not aware of even a single Gen-4 that has a truly capable engine management system that is NOT built for forced induction... for obvious dollar and cents reasons.

On that note, for anything north of 7.5K RPM, I would absolutely recommend a dry-sump for the long haul- this will also net a small power increase by default. However, anything above 7K RPM, you should already be looking at the rotating assembly.

Who said anything about going na I'm just trying to figure out my options if I decide to mod the hell outta my 08.
I know that Dry sumping is definitely needed since the cam in cam requires more oiling than the stock pump gears can produce. Most are telling me that I would need to go to a solid roller cam but that is something I really don't want to do! I've been there and done that! I don't need the whole world to know my car is modded . Thanks Dan!

 

[Viper Specialty]

Who said anything about going na I'm just trying to figure out my options if I decide to mod the hell outta my 08.
I know that Dry sumping is definitely needed since the cam in cam requires more oiling than the stock pump gears can produce. Most are telling me that I would need to go to a solid roller cam but that is something I really don't want to do! I've been there and done that! I don't need the whole world to know my car is modded . Thanks Dan!

Solid roller is absolutely not needed and should not even be considered on a built Gen-4 running a variable camshaft. Take everything you or anybody else knows about building TT Gen-1-2-3, and toss it out the window. Gen-4 is a whole new ball game, and there are many things you cannot and should not even consider screwing around with- complete waste of time and effort. Solid roller and big springs on a variable camshaft being one of them. This fascination with huge spring pressures makes me batty. All you are doing is wearing everything out. Do you see any of the OEM's ever running huge springs? NO. They make things lighter, and run just enough spring for the application. Making things lighter accomplishes the same thing at high RPM, and allows the springs to function more efficiently, without increasing wear.

Every single TT G4 built runs a Gen-4 Cam and Manifold. The flow restrictions of the manifold are completely irellevent in a Twin Turbo application- the G4 manifold STILL flows far more than any other generation except for 5- and any of those cars don't have trouble making 1500+, even with less manifold, cam and head to work with. When you have a manifold and head combo that can flow 700-800 horsepower N/A, making 3x that with forced induction is not a problem, even before hitting major flow restrictions.

The question is, how much power do you need? The Gen-4 component wise with regard to valvetrain capability, head and manifold flow, etc is actually further as a starting point than even the built/ported Gen-3's. Unless you want 2500HP, don't overshoot and make your car less stable when it is off boost. Our Gen-4 platforms focus on strength and putting money into places that it matters rather than changing things for the sake of changing things. The Gen-4 has some weaknesses- but it also has a slew of gifts that should just be left alone.

 

[Moundir]

Dan,

I agree with you on a lot of your points, but my question remains the same. Will the 08 cam profile and the way it can be manipulated allow the tq say at 5000rpms to be held all the way up to 7500 or more rpms like a solid roller cam could be specked to do? I'm worried about going thru all the trouble of doing a monster build only to find out the hard way that the stock cam will not hold the midrange tq all the way to the end. This why I am asking for the cam specs, unless this build has already been tried and proven, I really don't want to speculate at my expense. Can you say for certain that it will or not? If so, have you built, or seen any gen 4s for comparison? Can you share what cam specs you have on the gen 4? Thanks for your help again.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan,

I agree with you on a lot of your points, but my question remains the same. Will the 08 cam profile and the way it can be manipulated allow the tq say at 5000rpms to be held all the way up to 7500 or more rpms like a solid roller cam could be specked to do? I'm worried about going thru all the trouble of doing a monster build only to find out the hard way that the stock cam will not hold the midrange tq all the way to the end. This why I am asking for the cam specs, unless this build has already been tried and proven, I really don't want to speculate at my expense. Can you say for certain that it will or not? If so, have you built, or seen any gen 4s for comparison? Can you share what cam specs you have on the gen 4? Thanks for your help again.

Without knowing who/what/why you are trying to build, I could not even begin to tell you what has or has not been done compared to it, or what is or is not a good idea or likely to work. It sounds like you are being led on this one... be careful who you jump into bed with. There are a few guys out there trying to get into the Gen-4 platform who haven't so much as held one of these variable cams in their hands, let alone be able to tell you how it works in practice or even theory. I would suggest you be careful what you believe, and don't let someone talk you into anything... especially if it involves being a guinea pig.

All that said, you are asking questions about typical NA problems & solutions, while hinting at a TT type build. Does not compute.

 

[Moundir]

Without knowing who/what/why you are trying to build, I could not even begin to tell you what has or has not been done compared to it, or what is or is not a good idea or likely to work. It sounds like you are being led on this one... be careful who you jump into bed with. There are a few guys out there trying to get into the Gen-4 platform who haven't so much as held one of these variable cams in their hands, let alone be able to tell you how it works in practice or even theory. I would suggest you be careful what you believe, and don't let someone talk you into anything... especially if it involves being a guinea pig.

All that said, you are asking questions about typical NA problems & solutions, while hinting at a TT type build. Does not compute.

Let me clarify this for you. 1. Have you build or know of any big twin turbo gen 4s reving up to 7500rpms with the stock cam? 2. If yes, does the stock gen 4 cam pull all the way to the top? It's a simple question I thought?! If you don't know the answer or dont want to provide me with the stock cam specs it's ok! I can do without the lecture on who to sleep with thank you. This is not my first rodeo and I'm not your typical check writer here. I do all my research first and simply won't vonlunteer my car to be a guini pig for the sake of saving a few pennies! You talk a big game like you have it all figured out, while in reality you have yet to build a single twin turbo car. So thanks for the lecture again! I know that you do nice work, but get over your self and your condescending $hit don't stink attitude.

So can anyone shed light to my original questions? Anyone, with real tested data? Thanks.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Let me clarify this for you. 1. Have you build or know of any big twin turbo gen 4s reving up to 7500rpms with the stock cam? 2. If yes, does the stock gen 4 cam pull all the way to the top? It's a simple question I thought?! If you don't know the answer or dont want to provide me with the stock cam specs it's ok! I can do without the lecture on who to sleep with thank you. This is not my first rodeo and I'm not your typical check writer here. I do all my research first and simply won't vonlunteer my car to be a guini pig for the sake of saving a few pennies! You talk a big game like you have it all figured out, while in reality you have yet to build a single twin turbo car. So thanks for the lecture again! I know that you do nice work, but get over your self and your condescending $hit don't stink attitude.

So can anyone shed light to my original questions? Anyone, with real tested data? Thanks.

Oh man I am going to come off poorly in this post, but I have never been one to let a post like yours slide

I apologize to any of my customers who read this post, and who know me better... but then again, you guys probably saw this coming already, ha.

1. Its not as simple a question as you think, given the variables and things you are tossing around. There are absolutely a few clauses that go with the answer.
2. I have indeed built plenty of high-revving twin turbo engines, and Gen-4 engines in general.
3. You definitely took what I said out of context- but the reason I said it was that some of the things you are considering are absolutely out of the question or irrelevant, and to suggest them in the first place indicates a lack of knowledge on the platform by whoever suggested it- but I could not be sure because you wouldn't actually post what you are doing. Get over it.
4. I have yet to build a single twin turbo car? That's hilarious.
5. I spend my life fixing all of the engineering mistakes made by many of the other so-called "tuners" in these markets. If you want to compare who has what figured out, I am all ears.
6. Last I checked, my products go to the Nth on engineering, technology, and/or integration. I am the only one with OBD-2 compliant STAND ALONE ECU systems. I have race engines lasting longer than anyone else in a given series of their type. I have products and technology in these engines that NO ONE else in this market has. I build around what works and what doesn't- not what I can easily package and sell. I build on my view of perfection, not the cheap illusion of it- and my business pays dearly for it. I don't care, because I will not allow myself to build at less of a level.

I was reluctant to directly answer your questions because they have a tendency of having all kinds of indirect information needing to be attached to them in order to properly answer, and I don't want to post information that is out in left field. I know any of that information I give you is going right into a fellow tuners notebook one way or another, so I didn't intend on posting a lot of application specific items that might have been irrelevant to what you are asking at my own expense. Sorry, but I am not willing to post everything I know on these topics so that I can make it easier for someone else to make a profit off of you or someone else. If you would have simply stated the application and the question, I would have answered it directly a few posts ago. To date, you STILL havent not even posted how much power you are intending to make! GEE ****, IMPORTANT DETAIL?

Rather than just answering my question and waiting for the reply, you got bent out of shape and acted like I had just insulted your mother when I simply told you to be careful who you believe. Your questions SCREAM uninformed on this platform, I apologize from caring if you get the shaft by being talked into something that won't work.

You are on your own, I wish you luck.

 

[Moundir]

Oh man I am going to come off poorly in this post, but I have never been one to let a post like your slide

I apologize to any of my customers who read this post, and who know me better... but then again, you guys probably saw this coming already, ha.

1. Its not as simple a question as you think, given the variables and things you are tossing around. There are absolutely a few clauses that go with the answer.
2. I have indeed built plenty of high-revving twin turbo engines, and Gen-4 engines in general.
3. You definitely took what I said out of context- but the reason I said it was that some of the things you are considering are absolutely out of the question or irrelevant, and to suggest them in the first place indicates a lack of knowledge on the platform by whoever suggested it- but I could not be sure because you wouldn't actually post what you are doing. Get over it.
4. I have yet to build a single twin turbo car? That's hilarious.
5. I spend my life fixing all of the engineering mistakes made by many of the other so-called "tuners" in these markets. If you want to compare who has what figured out, I am all ears. Last I checked, my products go to the Nth on engineering, technology, and/or integration. I am the only one with OBD-2 compliant STAND ALONE ECU systems. I have race engines lasting longer than anyone else in a given series. I have products and technology in these engines that NO ONE else in this market has. I build around what works and what doesn't- not what I can easily package and sell. I build on my view of perfection, not the cheap illusion of it- and my business pays dearly for it. But I don't care, because I will not allow myself to build at less of a level.
6. I have yet to be challenged to build something on this platform that I could not complete, entirely due to my knowledge base on these systems and engineering in general as well as my unrelenting persistence.

I am reluctant to directly answer your questions, because they have a tendency of having all kinds of indirect information needing to be attached to them in order to properly answer, and I dont want to post information that is out in left field. I know any of that information I give you is going right into a fellow tuners notebook, so I didnt intend on posting a lot of specifics. If you would have simply stated the application and the question, I would have answered it directly a few posts ago. Instead, you got bent out of shape when I posted that you should be careful, which is all too obvious to me.

You are on your own, I wish you luck.

thanks for nothing anyways! All I wanted to know was the profile of a STOCK cam! I didnt come on here to have this stupid back and forth banter with you! My question was not directed at you to steal your secret sauce knowledge to use by another tuner! You are so full of yourself that's this is where your brain went! I made the same post at the same time in the srt engineers section. This has nothing to do with you! Yes I was being coy as I don't like to start threads saying hey look at me and look at what I did! I just want to build my car right and want to do my own research about what components to use.
As far as me complainin about everything costing too much, You're a freaking joke man! Get over yourself! You are mad because I told you your gen 4 throttle bodies are overpriced. Guess what, they are! That's my opinion, and I only told you that in a pm because you were soliciting my business. I didn't go on your thread and say, that better machined tbs were available from X-metal for half the price. Once again, thanks for nothing!

 

[Viper Specialty]

thanks for nothing anyways! All I wanted to know was the profile of a STOCK cam! I didnt come on here to have this stupid back and forth banter with you! My question was not directed at you to steal your secret sauce knowledge to use by another tuner! You are so full of yourself that's this is where your brain went! I made the same post at the same time in the srt engineers section. This has nothing to do with you! Yes I was being coy as I don't like to start threads saying hey look at me and look at what I did! I just want to build my car right and want to do my own research about what components to use.
As far as me complainin about everything costing too much, You're a freaking joke man! Get over yourself! You are mad because I told you your gen 4 throttle bodies are overpriced. Guess what, they are! That's my opinion, and I only told you that in a pm because you were soliciting my business. I didn't go on your thread and say, that better machined tbs were available from X-metal for half the price. Once again, thanks for nothing!

Actually, a lot of this is exactly what you claim its not. Information -ANY information- that causes one business to waste time, money or resources on an aspect of a build as a result of information they do not have could be considered "Secret Sauce". It wasn't so much about the stock cam specs as other aspects you started to mention that gave me pause. Is it any of it actually a secret? No- but in that situation, one company does the R&D and spends the money, while the other rides the coat tails, and then has the ability to leapfrog the first. This is simple business, yet you seem to think this is unique to what I am posting here. Haven't you wondered why there are fewer people like me posting anything? THAT'S WHY, because this market and its criss-cross of information was hurting some businesses after the economy started to slide.

Perhaps after this project of yours is done, you will see where I am coming from. You seem to be saying this is all my fault. Its not. YOU caused this when you became irate for no reason while I was trying to give you the information you needed and save you from making a mistake, even as you sidestepped the actual questions I was asking you about application. Every time I can recall that I have tried to explain something to you, it always ends up as its too expensive, blah blah overpriced, blah blah, you don't know, blah blah, so this is nothing new... but hey, what the hell.

Your comments on the throttle bodies show you still don't have a clue how this market works on items like that. Show me those X-Metal throttle bodies. I want to see them so I can explain to you how you are completely incorrect. Good luck finding them... considering as far as I know, they never made a set for the Gen-4, and I don't believe they are even still selling any Viper products. The last few posts about them I have seen stated no replies to customers, and possibly went back to focusing on bikes.

I swear I feel like I am arguing with a thirteen year old. You don't get the information you want on your terms, so you throw a hissy-fit and throw stones. I could really care less about you or anything you do, don't do, or buy. I know for a fact you have never, and would never put a dime on our bottom line- and I knew that long before I posted in this thread. I posted here because I thought I could answer your questions, seeing as it is right up my alley. Obviously, I wasted my time.

Good luck, and have a great holiday

 

[Dan Cragin]

There are some aftermarket VVT cams that are being tested now that should be available in the near future. The issue is they are being developed for racing applications and programmable engine management systems, not very practical for street use. I am currently working with an ACRX that will be using a dry sump, new VVT cam and EMS; this should be quite a track car with a sequential transmission and chassis upgrades.

 

[Nader]

For the record I would have paid double for the custom Throttle bodies Dan developed for my build. I am speaking from experience when I say that Dan is likely the most knowledgeable builder/tuner out there in the Viper market place. You want something done right, it costs money. I did years of research in this market before I decided on build specs and a builder and quickly realized that for a truly custom build Dan is center stage. Yes there are several builders that can slap a Padton on a car or bolt on a big head and cam package but those are just nuts a bolts. There is way more that goes into these builds that have to be considered. Far to many owners jump at a deal without thinking it through or considering the consequences. Sounds like you are headed down that road..... Sorry.

In the end no one can match Dans expertise across all areas design, build, customization, tuning and real world performance. Yes there are builders that can bolt on parts or tune a car but they can not match Viper Specialty's knowledge base.

For your information I invited Dan here to try to help you. In the end it doesn't sound like you want help or even want to listen to the voice of reason. Good luck. You are going to need it if you don't start listening.

I apologize Dan. Sorry for wasting your time.

 

[Moundir]

There are some aftermarket VVT cams that are being tested now that should be available in the near future. The issue is they are being developed for racing applications and programmable engine management systems, not very practical for street use. I am currently working with an ACRX that will be using a dry sump, new VVT cam and EMS; this should be quite a track car with a sequential transmission and chassis upgrades.

Sounds like a perfect combination for the track! Good luck with the project.

 

[Moundir]

For your information I invited Dan here to try to help you. In the end it doesn't sound like you want help or even want to listen to the voice of reason. Good luck. You are going to need it if you don't start listening.

I apologize Dan. Sorry for wasting your time.

I feel like I'm in an asylum here! *** is wrong with you two?! Can you hear yourselves? You are Lecturing a stranger like you know him! A simple answer to what the cam specs were would have been more than suffient! Instead I get a lecture on who I should use and not. This is not my first rodeo with vipers and tuners! I don't need to explain myself to you or mister high and mighty Dan. This is my business! I don't understand the need to continue to belittle someone you don't even know by lecturing him? You see, I can do the same to you but I won't. I don't know you. So I would never say to you, ******** you're an idiot for spending 30k to do a gen 4 heads and cam on a gen 3 to only make620rwhp! You see that's your choice! This is America and you have a right to spend your money anyway you want! I didn't go on your thread and belittle you all under the cover of trying to help! Dan only came on here to hear himself speak and help sell his $hit as usual! He didn't offer any help! When I pressed for the STOCK specs he went on and on about me getting info to give another tuner So for the last time, to the both of you, thanks but no thanks!

 

[Nader]

Right.... Go back and read the thread. We tried to help. Good luck.

 

[FastMatt]

Let me clarify this for you. 1. Have you build or know of any big twin turbo gen 4s reving up to 7500rpms with the stock cam? 2. If yes, does the stock gen 4 cam pull all the way to the top? It's a simple question I thought?! If you don't know the answer or dont want to provide me with the stock cam specs it's ok! I can do without the lecture on who to sleep with thank you. This is not my first rodeo and I'm not your typical check writer here. I do all my research first and simply won't vonlunteer my car to be a guini pig for the sake of saving a few pennies! You talk a big game like you have it all figured out, while in reality you have yet to build a single twin turbo car. So thanks for the lecture again! I know that you do nice work, but get over your self and your condescending $hit don't stink attitude.

So can anyone shed light to my original questions? Anyone, with real tested data? Thanks.

Man, from what I saw Viper Specialty bent over backwards to help you and took time to try and explain as much as he could to you and for that you blasted him? Well I guess like the saying goes, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Viper Specialty, just walk away, thats not the kind of person you want as a customer anyway.