Gen-4 Tuning System, Paxton Kit options... time for a head count. POLL INSIDE

[Viper Specialty]

OK guys, here it is.

If I am going to do this, I need to get an idea of the demand. This is no easy task, and there is going to substantial manufacturing costs no matter which direction I choose to go. The goal here is to open up the Gen-4 tuning options with something reasonable, as well as package this with Paxton Blower options.

All I need is a head count with what option you are interested in. Once I can get things rolling I will expand on this further. I am asking ONLY people who would honestly be buyers respond, not those who just like a particular option more than the rest.

Installation, additional options, and tuning would of course be available in all cases.


1. Tuning System Only; This will be a plug-and-play system with full standalone capabilities, expansion options, and incredible quality in a form that has not yet been seen in the Viper market. The goal is to make this completely reversible for Smog and Resale purposes. This WILL cure the Drive-By-Wire lag issues, cam control, have on-board logging, on-board wideband, etc. Goal is the ~$5500 range.

2. Gen-4 Specific Base Paxton Bolt-On Kit; Will include the above tuning system in the needed configuration, a Paxton kit adapted for Gen-4 use, and a base calibration file. Expected ~700 RWHP ballpark, limited by OE Pistons. Trying to keep the price at <15K. Will be OBD-2 smogable by plugging in OE ECU and reverting Fuel Injectors to OEM.

3. Gen-4 Specific Upgrade Paxton Bolt-On Kit; Will include all of the above, with alternate pulleys, alternate calibration, additional Paxton cooling system upgrades, a set of drop-in Forged Pistons, and a full engine gasket set. Expecting ~800 RWHP. Trying to keep this <18K.

4. Interested in ANY of these options, but for Gen-5.


Please try to keep this thread completely on topic with any questions.

 

[ACRsnake]

me ..........

 

[Viper Specialty]

I had a new idea today... and it didn't even hurt that much

If I can make it work, it will make my previous take on this solution all but archaic by comparison- I see some absolutely incredible potential with this latest iteration. Stay tuned.

That being said... who has Gen-4 that would volunteer to be the first for prototype development at a discount? I do not have any truly "straight Gen-4" cars around here that will ever see the light of day for modifications, and my own test car is simply not "Gen-4 enough" to test on any longer. No time frame is specified at the moment, but someone remotely close would probably be a bonus.

 

[DMan]

Dan, first, thanks for being open to developing solutions like this.

My personal hold back on an offering like this is a lack of support in my area. Since Heffner moved to FL, there's not a resource to be found that knows the viper within hours of driving, so if I have any issue I can't handle I'm shipping the car a significant distance. This adds significant risk in money & time. If I lived anywhere near Buffalo, NY my car would already be at your place with a big "please experiment on me" sticker on it.

That aside, I'd be very interested in a package like the above, $10-15k for a turn-key package that'll pass a state OBD2 emissions check, sounds incredible to me & at a power level where you could still open track it and the power would be usable for strip & enjoyment. I just live in a bad place for viper support, especially modified.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan, first, thanks for being open to developing solutions like this.

My personal hold back on an offering like this is a lack of support in my area. Since Heffner moved to FL, there's not a resource to be found that knows the viper within hours of driving, so if I have any issue I can't handle I'm shipping the car a significant distance. This adds significant risk in money & time. If I lived anywhere near Buffalo, NY my car would already be at your place with a big "please experiment on me" sticker on it.

That aside, I'd be very interested in a package like the above, $10-15k for a turn-key package that'll pass a state OBD2 emissions check, sounds incredible to me & at a power level where you could still open track it and the power would be usable for strip & enjoyment. I just live in a bad place for viper support, especially modified.

Hello,

Perhaps I should clarify a bit:

-The initial development is for fitment purposes and trying to keep the Venom Controller as happy as possible on the final plug and play product. The actual basic design layout has already been done in another form and functionally tested- it works. Its a matter of making everything fit and be "idiot proof" in its final form.

-Any of the prospective final layouts should have the ability to be removed as needed if a problem arises. You can simply go back to the OE Venom Controller, and put any accompanying ECU related items back to stock- in turn eliminating any direct potential issues for troubleshooting.

-A properly built package is rarely a problem unless something is physically damaged, when looking at it from an electrical standpoint. If this was part of a pre-tuned plug and play package or initially built here, you should not have any sort of random issues that would need our direct intervention. Normal wear and tear aside, it would be little different than it is now.

-Just to further clarify, this system will NOT be directly OBD-2 compliant. When taking the control away from the VENOM controller, it is not going to be very happy in the least- and with no method of programming it to "remain silent", it is just not possible to pass while anything is disconnected. The hardware and wiring needed to produce such a system would be far outside the scope of pricing for something like this. However, the goal is to make this as "plug and play" as possible. To pass inspection, you would need to switch back the OE ECU, the injectors [if changed] and plug back in any sensors that may have been changed in your case. Overall, about an hour of changes, and we will try and keep it as simple as possible.

-Directly testable OBD-2 compliant setups can be built on request, but that's a whole different ball game and not really a plug and play arrangement. We have weighed the production of OBD-2 friendly harnesses design and provisions, but in the end when comparing the reduction of hassle compared to a plug-and-play OBD-2 swap, it just makes no sense at the price point.

 

[DMan]

Dan, thanks for clarifying, that helps. I was starting to think of it like the Ford situation, on my Fords like the GT500 I add some bolt ons and load a tune & get 120rwhp increase and don't need to do anything to pass MD OBD-2 scanning. With the Chrysler cold-war style lock down I understand now that this isn't in the cards for the viper, unless MOPAR plays along someday.

So it would be a pretty simple swap 'back to stock' for the computer, I know that the emission testing requires so many starts and miles to pass, would you bypass the FI from the Paxton so you could drive the car enough to be able to pass on an OBD-2 reader?

The thing that's kept me from header/cat upgrades on my gen4 is that you put in the MOPAR race PCM which is fine daily, but then you swap for emissions reading, but then the headers & O2 sensor issues cause codes, the codes cause it to fail and so you're stuck in not being able to pass with the Race PCM or your stock unit ... so no mods at all here in MD. Is this too much for a kit at this time to address? Maybe this is an option for states that don't use these **** scanning tools?

Thnx

 

[Junkie]

Voted, thanks

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan, thanks for clarifying, that helps. I was starting to think of it like the Ford situation, on my Fords like the GT500 I add some bolt ons and load a tune & get 120rwhp increase and don't need to do anything to pass MD OBD-2 scanning. With the Chrysler cold-war style lock down I understand now that this isn't in the cards for the viper, unless MOPAR plays along someday.

All I will say at this point is... we have not given up on this. If we come up with a better solution- we will certainly offer it. I am not out of ideas yet!

So it would be a pretty simple swap 'back to stock' for the computer, I know that the emission testing requires so many starts and miles to pass, would you bypass the FI from the Paxton so you could drive the car enough to be able to pass on an OBD-2 reader?

No, the Paxton system would be left in place. As long as you keep it <3K and your foot off the gas, the Paxton will not "do" anything.

The thing that's kept me from header/cat upgrades on my gen4 is that you put in the MOPAR race PCM which is fine daily, but then you swap for emissions reading, but then the headers & O2 sensor issues cause codes, the codes cause it to fail and so you're stuck in not being able to pass with the Race PCM or your stock unit ... so no mods at all here in MD. Is this too much for a kit at this time to address? Maybe this is an option for states that don't use these **** scanning tools?

While it certainly would be easier with stock headers due to sensor warmup on the standard ECU [which you need in order to pass OBD2] there are some tricks to getting around this problem. After all, you only need to pass once, test, and the OE ECU comes right back out. It won't be a daily driving hassle. We will be testing multiple solutions, and then see where we end up. The lazy warmup test can be forced by higher idle revs to kick out more heat, and even cat-less cars can be tricked by using real downstream O2s with non-foulers, or combinations of rear sensors and sims. Not all cases will be identical of course, but we will try and make a standard package layout that works, and then deviations will be dealt with case by case, or we will issue an approved upgrade list, and how exactly to deal with the hassles of THAT setup.

 

[DMan]

I've never wished I lived in Buffalo before, lol. Thanks, this is great info and I'll throw my vote in there. To be honest this would make me hesitate concerning a gen5, for either upgrading my gen4, or seeing what you come up with for the 5 before taking action. Thank you, you've gotten me a little excited again when I was really feeling trapped after so many yrs of no mod possibilities.

 

[Westxsrt10]

I'm all for a Gen 4 only tuner like a SCT. I only need the basic AF ratios, timing, LTFT's'........just sad the price will be near $5500.


_________________________________________
08 coupe w/Belangers

 

[Viper Specialty]

I'm all for a Gen 4 only tuner like a SCT. I only need the basic AF ratios, timing, LTFT's'........just sad the price will be near $5500.

This project has taken numerous turns since it started. All I will say is that anybody who is on the fence buying ANY kind of Gen-4 engine management system... will probably hang themselves if they jump the gun on what we are working on right now.

I apologize for the secrecy- but it will all be worth it in the end if this comes to fruition, I promise everyone that!

 

[Nader]

Sounds quite interesting Dan. Sounds like you may have a game changer up your sleeve. You are evening enticing me. Damn it!

This project has taken numerous turns since it started. All I will say is that anybody who is on the fence buying ANY kind of Gen-4 engine management system... will probably hang themselves if they jump the gun on what we are working on right now.

I apologize for the secrecy- but it will all be worth it in the end if this comes to fruition, I promise everyone that!

 

[Junkie]

This project has taken numerous turns since it started. All I will say is that anybody who is on the fence buying ANY kind of Gen-4 engine management system... will probably hang themselves if they jump the gun on what we are working on right now.

I apologize for the secrecy- but it will all be worth it in the end if this comes to fruition, I promise everyone that!

Give me the ability to put a cam in my gen4 and its on like donkey kong. 9's@138+ on motor

 

[Viper Specialty]

Give me the ability to put a cam in my gen4 and its on like donkey kong. 9's@138+ on motor

Won't be a problem

 

[Junkie]

Won't be a problem

Going to have a cam kit/supporting parts as well? Buying it all would be nice.

 

[ViperCrazed]

H/C/I ACRs?

Woooo!

 

[purplesnake]

Won't be a problem

Dan, it probably sounds trivial with the kind of advancements you are describing, but, would we be able to keep the "exhaust burble" on decel, if we wanted to?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan, it probably sounds trivial with the kind of advancements you are describing, but, would we be able to keep the "exhaust burble" on decel, if we wanted to?

Exhaust burble is a combination of mid/deep vacuum timing being left low, combined with over-run fueling being left active rather than shut off. That's no big deal to add or delete if you wanted to.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Going to have a cam kit/supporting parts as well? Buying it all would be nice.

After the dust settles on the Paxton/tuning, we will move into the NA area. Yes, we have plans to offer modified Gen-4 cam components. However, there are critical considerations that need to be made regarding Gen-4 valvetrain, which we will get into when the time comes.

 

[purplesnake]

Exhaust burble is a combination of mid/deep vacuum timing being left low, combined with over-run fueling being left active rather than shut off. That's no big deal to add or delete if you wanted to.

I can't wait to see the package options you come up with for us! Thanks!

 

[Junkie]

Man a big camming Viper is just so much cooler than a Paxton though!

 

[Viper Specialty]

Man a big camming Viper is just so much cooler than a Paxton though!

Haha, while I agree from a sound perspective, the tuning hassles and changes in drivability are not for everyone.
Big bolt-on hassle-less horsepower increases however, certainly are

That being said......... nothing would stop anyone from combining the two

 

[SRT09]

what kind of ETA is this looking to be Dan?

 

[Viper Specialty]

We are aiming to have a production version of the controller by year end coupled with the initial Paxton design following very soon after, perhaps even before. I hope to be shipping packages Spring '14. We are then going to focus on the Upgrade version as soon as we have a development volunteer, and will be shipping that version immediately after [simple changeover really]. The Gen-5 package will follow the Upgrade version of Gen-4.

 

[C-Note]

Man a big camming Viper is just so much cooler than a Paxton though!

I have a big cam and a Paxton, sounds ridiculous!

That being said, Dan. Will you be have available a cam and blower package for the Gen4?

If so, does anyone have a Gen4 ACR for sale?

 

[Viper Specialty]

I have a big cam and a Paxton, sounds ridiculous!

That being said, Dan. Will you be have available a cam and blower package for the Gen4?

If so, does anyone have a Gen4 ACR for sale?

Hey Clint,

I think that many people will be surprised with what just cam be done with a Gen-4 cam... both in the sound and the power department. Its no small cam already. Just some positioning adjustments alone will net some nice changes, and altering the installed centerline can change things further. Many doors open long before needing to change the cam itself. Just to give you some idea, the lobe profile of the cam in your engine is nearly identical to a Gen-4, just timed entirely differently.

 

[Junkie]

Interested to hear the gen4 cam stuff you've got going on. Tune/repositioning my cam, or whatever you're referencing.

 

[Getnlwr]

I'm all for a Gen 4 only tuner like a SCT. I only need the basic AF ratios, timing, LTFT's'........just sad the price will be near $5500.


_________________________________________
08 coupe w/Belangers

This is what I want... with the ability to do a supercharger down the road if I want to. I like the SCT tuner I had on my ram SRT10. Having more adjustable options than the SCT has would be even better, without having to use a computer to make the adjustments on the SCT, before plugging the SCT into the vehicle.

 

[Viper Specialty]

This is what I want... with the ability to do a supercharger down the road if I want to. I like the SCT tuner I had on my ram SRT10. Having more adjustable options than the SCT has would be even better, without having to use a computer to make the adjustments on the SCT, before plugging the SCT into the vehicle.

Sorry guys, a plug-in bare bones basic flash system is just never going to be in the cards for this application. If only I could convey exactly what people are asking for- they make it sound like its a simple feat, but the reality is that these companies have millions of dollars ******* in various hardware and software designs. There is no way that a company is going to lay out millions of dollars to reverse engineer and write a UI with a team of engineers to sell maybe 500 programmers at even a grand each. No... Friggen... Way. That wouldn't even cover a few months of code. There is not yet [and likely never will be] enough market for a company like SCT to justify the R&D, and the engine is just too complicated for a low-end controller to end up in the mix instead. Everyone needs to understand that the Gen-4 is NOTHING like the earlier generations on a technical level, and will never be able to be treated as such. To make then Gen-4 engines operate with older tech costs more money than properly controlling them. If you want basic flash tuning, don't buy a Gen-4. Period.

Our approach to this is different than everyone elses thus far, and maximizes the processing power per dollar by eliminating as many unneeded expenses as possible while still retaining the functionality that is paramount in the Gen-4 application. We have crunched the numbers- it is absolutely not worth doing any other way for a cheaper price point, not by a long shot. The other options cost almost as much even in medium volume, and offer 1/10th of the capabilities. Even if I came out with a plug-and-play solution at a $1500 price point, but all of the gauges stop working, the ABS stops working, Airbags stop working, and the A/C stops working... would anyone actually buy it? Of course they wouldn't. The product would be DOA.

The package combination of what we offer will likely become the new standard for Gen-4/5. I urge everyone to just sit back and let us do our job. In the end, everyone will get a lot more than they bargained for if we can put it all together as intended. As pointed out in the other thread, stop looking at the cost of the ECU itself, and instead look at the package price- better yet look at the price of the car. NO ONE would refuse spending 5K more for a Gen-4 car that was tunable than one that isn't- its only because it is a separate expense that people balk at it.

 

[Getnlwr]

I think most of the people here recognize what you state as reality being the truth, and that it's a different beast. We're just looking at the basics for what we want. From what I understand the other cars in this same range of years are also "locked" by Chrysler, and they have been cracked. I look forward to seeing what the fruits of your labor are. After seeing a 800hp viper in action, I want to start moving that route as well. Tuning seems to be the hard part now.