Gen II GTS Fuel Tank Issue

[Tom Sessions]

I have a few questions before proceeding. You said it only leaks while the engine is running. Have you had a fuel filter replaced recently? What side of the car does it appear to be leaking from? Did the dealer remove the rear wheel liners to gain access so they could see the sides of the fuel tank?

 

[MikeG]

I have a few questions before proceeding. You said it only leaks while the engine is running. Have you had a fuel filter replaced recently? What side of the car does it appear to be leaking from? Did the dealer remove the rear wheel liners to gain access so they could see the sides of the fuel tank?

Hi Tom,

Yes, the dealer removed the rear wheel and the rear wheel liner (passenger side) to gain access. The crack is on the seam where the filler neck connects to the tank.

I had a filter replaced last year, but that was on the opposite side of the car and opposite side of where the current leak is at. The filter was the very first place checked, even though the leak was not there. The filter is okay. Possibly of interest, is that there have been a couple two or three other viper owners respond, commenting that they have had to replace fuel tanks that incurred cracks in the same location?

Sometime in the next week, I hope to secure the actual Tank after it is removed, and then I will be able to take photos, which I will be able to post to this thread. I think that will be of help.

For members that have suggested that repairs can be made by dealers or repair shops in other states for far less cost; I appreciate the input, but I'm not in a position to move the car from Seguin Texas to a location in another state. And I'm not sure that when transportation costs are factored in, to that shop and back again, there would be any appreciative savings.

If there is a repair facility located in Texas that is reasonably close that can accomplish the repairs for considerably less, (and do guaranteed certified work), then that of course would be of interest.

I used to have the car serviced by A.R.T. in Buda, Texas, before they went out of business. Anyone familiar with this group of Viper Gurus knows they were top notch, did extremely good work, and were very reasonable in their rates. One of their former employees looked over the estimate for me, and advised it was in his opinion, reasonable.

Something else that has to be considered. This might be a covered claim. I'm awaiting an inspection by an insurance appraiser. If it is a covered loss, then the insurance company will have input on repairs and the repair process. So please understand and keep that in mind as well.

 

[Ryan_DSA]

We sell quite a few used tanks, the tanks are supposed to be the same 2000-2002 i d say the majority of customers with leaking tanks say they have a 2001 or 2002, maybe dodge switched production on the 01-02 tanks, but we sell about 6 to 7 used tanks a year to fix the filler neck leaks on 01-02's if i remember right they have a couple seams right by the filler neck and maybe some glue where the neck goes on(i might be thinking of gen3)

"I had issue with getting gas on my 05 Vert which was a pain in the butt, I was told the same thing in order to remove the gas tank they had to cut the car and then put a panel in. I talked to Garrett at Raceway Chrysler who told me there is another solution and that is to drop the rear drivetrain and then lower the tank. Not sure how difficult that is or how much more it would cost but definitely a solution that may be better than cutting the car."


the viper is a full frame car, so the only 2 ways to change the tank are to take the tub off, or cut/remove access panel(rt) and pull the tank out the back. you can't lower the drive train out of the back to take the tank out, becuase your frame is still there, and all the suspension, the 1992-2010 vipers do not have sub frames, all that suspension goes right on the frame.

 

[MikeG]

Hi Ryan,

Interesting. You'd think that given the 2002 was the last production year for the GTS, all the kinks would have been worked out, and this would have been the most solid built of the GTS cars.
You might be on to something then, with the production change pursuant the 01-02 gas tanks.
I went over to the dealership today to see if they had begun work yet, only to learn my inside rear mirror now had fallen off. I'm thinking maybe I need to have William Shatner come out and look at the car. He just might be able to tell if there is a gremlin occupying it. Seems so. (LOL).

 

[eucharistos]

Hi Ryan,

Interesting. You'd think that given the 2002 was the last production year for the GTS, all the kinks would have been worked out, and this would have been the most solid built of the GTS cars.
You might be on to something then, with the production change pursuant the 01-02 gas tanks.
I went over to the dealership today to see if they had begun work yet, only to learn my inside rear mirror now had fallen off. I'm thinking maybe I need to have William Shatner come out and look at the car. He just might be able to tell if there is a gremlin occupying it. Seems so. (LOL).

i just re-glued my rear view mirror button on for the 3rd time in 3 years - "they" say it is the heat

 

[Dan Cragin]

I have seen this happen a few times over the years. As before mentioned it is an RT/10 specific issue and happens where the filler neck connects to the tank. About a 8 hour plus job.

 

[MikeG]

I have seen this happen a few times over the years. As before mentioned it is an RT/10 specific issue and happens where the filler neck connects to the tank. About a 8 hour plus job.

Mine is a GTS, not RT/10. But reportedly, like with the RT/10, it also is where the filler neck connects to the tank. When the parts come in and they begin the tear down/removal, I'll get some pictures on this thread.

 

[AJ02]

You asked about a repair facility in Tx. Will @ RSI is right outside Ft. Worth in Bridgeport. He's just about 1/2 mile from where I work. It's not that far from you.

 

[ViperSmith]

As much of a pain as it is, how many 11yo cars are out there on the road today (and to boot, 17yo car designs)? I think you have to look at it as, the engineering was pretty decent for the vehicle to stand up to time as well as it has...

 

[eucharistos]

are there any maintenance / mod things to consider doing "while you are there" - (as long as the tank is out) like fuel filter, fuel pump, wiring, etc

 

[MikeG]

are there any maintenance / mod things to consider doing "while you are there" - (as long as the tank is out) like fuel filter, fuel pump, wiring, etc

That is a good suggestion. As I'm going to be there when they pull it, I may as well check everything out. Thanks.

 

[The Quinn]

Hey everyone,

So can someone confirm that this issue effects the 01-02 models primarily? Is there is a precautionary measure that can be taken to prevent this from happening or preventing a used replacement tank from suffering the same result after being swapped out? I am in the market for a GTS and was specifically looking for a very low mileage 01-02 with the idea of it being newer and low mileage, that with care should not be prone to any major repairs. I certainly don't want to shell out the extra money for a lower mileage 01-02 if there is a good chance that I will run into this issue. Especially if new replacement tanks aren't available any longer. I'd rather just get a very low mileage 00 or older at that rate. Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[BlueLIGHTNING]

As much of a pain as it is, how many 11yo cars are out there on the road today (and to boot, 17yo car designs)? I think you have to look at it as, the engineering was pretty decent for the vehicle to stand up to time as well as it has...

Well I disagree because most cars are daily drivers who rack up more miles in a month than some of these Vipers have in 17 years. Driver your Viper like a daily and yes they might still be around but how much has it cost to keep it on the road in those 17 years?

 

[RevHeat]

Any updates Mike?

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Same here, but seems most prominent on the 2002 Coupes, at least for us.

Since the parts were being more difficult to obtain from Dodge we just started to repair them and with good results. Feel free to call me and I will explain to you how it's done-- you can do it yourself.

Btw.., Will @ RSI and Paul Scharf are both great options as well.

Best regards,
Doug

 

[speedracervr4]

Dependent on how big of a crack the tank had I think my repair would include some 8802 b2 sealant. It's used in aviation on fuel tanks and wings with great results.

 

[Viper Parts of America]

They advised Chrysler had informed them there no longer are any new OEM gas tanks available for the Generation II Vipers.

While we can't comment with any authority on the best fix, we can say that there are new Gen 2 fuel tanks available from Mopar - just not for the 2000 - 2002 Vipers:

https://www.viperpartsofamerica.com/index.php/products/1998-1999-dodge-viper-fuel-tank-04848812

https://www.viperpartsofamerica.com/index.php/products/1996-1997-dodge-viper-fuel-tank-04709500

Paul Scharf and X2 Builders are your best bets for used tanks, while we have always had great experiences with DLM Motorsports for repairs. We wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of the sponsors here on the Viper Club forums.

Good luck in your quest and keep us posted on the results!

 

[Viper98912]

Did I just read cut a panel out of my Viper? Scary, I hope I never have to do this.....thanks for the post and info

 

[MikeG]

Any updates Mike?

Chris,

I was not able to acquire a metal fuel cell. They were not produced for the Gen I and Gen II cars; only Gen III and Iv.

The parts came in, but now the dealership in Seguin declined to do the work. They advised the blueprint didn't come with OEM replacement panel, and Chrysler now will not provide them with it.
I personally think they now have had second thoughts about working on the car. Small town, small dealership. They should have been forthcoming from the beginning. I could and would have taken the car to San Antonio and probably it would already by now be repaired.

I've been in contact with Joe Velaz and he is going to make the repair.

 

[JeffInDFW]

Hi Mike, sorry I'm showing up here late in the process. I've had my 96 GTS since it was 6 months old, I've not seen this problem.

However, at Autozone tonight, I was looking at the two following products:
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ac...epair-kit/_/N-259t?itemIdentifier=382799_0_0_
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ac...nk-repair/_/N-259t?itemIdentifier=552984_0_0_

Considering the cost of replacing your fuel tank (not to mention having to cut up the car), I would absolutely research these two options. If after looking into it, it seemed like a good option, I would pull the wheel well liner, reach up in there using a lighted mirror, and take my time to do a careful repair. Then, I would keep a close eye on it for the first month, then check it at intervals until I felt I was set. Honestly, since this is obviously a problem with the tanks that were built, even if I could find a new one I would be just as concerned as one I had repaired myself. A used one would make me even more concerned. If you do go ahead and swap in a used one, I would personally still apply a patch over the area that fails.

Honestly, fuel tank leaks are something the federal government does not take lightly. I'm surprised they have not required Chrysler to manufacture replacement tanks that solve this problem and install them. There are not that many 2001 and 2002 Vipers still on the road, so it would not be a huge expense.

Last thing....Mike, I hate to hear that you wanted your Viper for so long, and now it has lost some of its "shine" in your eyes. If it makes you feel any better, I've had mine since it was 6 months old and currently have 53,000 miles on it. The first 2 years were completely out of control, blown engine, blown transmission, blown rearend, AC system, window glass, sun visors split, trim cracked, on and on and on. Unbelievably, right when the warranty ran out, so did the problems! Other than maintenance, I've had nothing fail until last month when my heater core started leaking. My Viper is in my garage right now as I am completely rebuilding my under dash airbox because I am OCD. I'll have her back together later this week. Hang in there, it is a really cool car.

Jeff Tyler
96 GTS---Purchased June of 97

 

[MikeG]

Hi Jeff,

Unfortunately I have already taken delivery of the repair parts and paid for them. The fuel tank is a used one. I don't think it is even possible now to get a new OEM tank for a Gen I & II Viper.
I'm hoping the tank will be one from a Viper that is a 2000 or older car. This problem, from what I can discern, appears to be unique to the 2001 and 2002 Vipers. Someone I think commented that the manufacturing source for the fuel tanks was changed those two years.

I'm in total agreement with you about the safety issue and federal government requirements. They went into effect in the 70s, when Ford Pintos were exploding all over the place. Fuel tanks today, are not only not supposed to explode in a crash, they under no circumstances are supposed to fail under normal driving conditions.
Unfortunately, I don't think this problem has come to light until recently, and there has to be a number of failures before it becomes a recall issue, or the failure has to result in some sort of catastrophic event, which I know none of us wants to see. So this issue is going to cost people out of their pocket, as insurance carriers will not cover it, and I doubt any of these cars are still under manufacturer warranty.
I took my car to a certified Viper mechanic I know in San Antonio, yesterday, and dropped it off. He is going to accomplish the repairs himself, privately for me.

I agree with you that the Viper is very, very cool. While perhaps not on the same level as a Ferrari or Lambo', I always thought of them as less prone to breaking. But like with your car, I've had to have a lot of repairs made recently, some of them quite expensive. So much for the "Hand-built" aspect. If the parts themselves are of poor quality, then being "Hand-built" really is not much to brag on.

My wife wants to continue to keep the car, so after repairs, I'm per her wishes, going to hang on to it. But if more failures of the expensive type occur, I'm going to reconsider, and she will just have to understand. I bought it to use on the road, and not to keep in the garage.

 

[Bugman Jeff]

Even Ferraris and Lamborghinis at well over twice the MSRP have their share of problems.
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/01/ferrari/
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/01/lamborghini/

Given that some of our cars are a bordering on 20 years old and they're made by a company that doesn't specialize in this kind of thing, our track record for reliability is pretty good. 'Course there's the whole Gen 3 rear knuckle breakage issue(which doesn't yet have a recall), but that's another discussion.

 

[Luisv]

OK.... Thanks to everybody that has shared info. I appreciate it! It has helped in making some of the decisions I've made and plans I now have.


So an update to let you all know what I've been dealing with since July.

So I was able to locate a two part putty epoxy made for use on plastic/poly tanks. Basically two putties you knead together and then apply to the tank. What I did was a bit hard to get to without pulling the tank so I did not photograph anything. Frankly not too much time to do so anyway.

The cliff note version.

- Pulled the passenger side rear and removed the fasteners on the rear side of the wheel well plastic. It was enough to move the panel out of the way to reach up and see the fuel neck.
- I cleaned the area around the filler neck very well. I removed all the residual fuel that had dripped down the side of the tank.
- I scuffed the area around the neck with 40 grit sandpaper to roughen the surface about 1" around the neck at the tank.
- I kneaded the epoxy and then applied it around the neck of the tank. I made certain to "stuff" it in very well. Allowed it to cure 24 hours.
- I came back around the outside of the epoxy fix with a layer of RTV (fuel resistant) smeared over the entire epoxy fix on the tank and up around the neck as well. Let that cure 24 hours.
- Reinstalled everything.

This was done in early August and solved the problem. No more leaks was able to fill the tank completely and took it on a 3,000 mile mountain road trip in October. Everything was flawless.

Right after the New Year I began to smell fuel faintly again. At first I though it was my paranoia since I stick my head in the wheel well before I drive the car each time since I made the fix. Unfortunately, it has gotten worse and I have already seen the fuel on the frame again. Essentially the fix lasted about 4 months. There is far less fuel than there was originally, but there is fuel there.

These are now the plans... I will be going through the work and photographing everything so that everybody gets the "how-to" later.

- Done a bit of reading in the Service Manual and getting under the car and see that dropping the rear is in face not an option as mentioned above. The fuel tank rides over the frame rails so there is no "dropping" it down. You have to deal with the panel cut.
- Found out that the RT/10's already have the panel in place. They would not need to cut. Also found that, as far as I can tell, the panel is the same as what I would buy for the Coupe. Part number is the same on the part from an RT/10 as it is for the panel on the GTS.
- Given that, I will look for the RT/10 panel at one of the Viper parts guys. I've dealt a few times with X2 already so I'll try them first.
- Once I have that, I will pull the tank. I will then make up the drawings for the tank and I will quote what it will cost to make the tank out of stainless or aluminum. I have a tank builder that just made a custom tank for me on another project car.
- If the cost is not insane, I will go that route, because it will be a one time fix and I will never have to deal with the issue again. Ever.
- If the cost is crazy compared to a used tank, then I will go that route. Logic here is that once the access panel is done, if the tank needs a swap again, it's not going to be as big a problem.

I will likely do all the work myself. Cutting into the body is not really what I am worried about. I'm in the midst of a body off restoration on a C3 Corvette, a panel is a piece of cake! It's just a time consuming chore and the car will be out for about a month.

Anyways.... I will keep you all posted and keep an eye out for the how-to as I'll document it all. I've not been able to find anything on the web about the process so hopefully this will help others in the future.

 

[EllowViper]

Food for thought and correct me if I'm wrong. Older GEN-IIs had the fill fitting in the top of the basket and not a separate fitting in the tank (from the pics I've seen of the older fuel baskets...right??) Curious as to why Dodge changed that design....just wondering. Also, I wonder what the effect of blended ethanol has with situation. Possibly the material used to seam/plastic weld the filler to/into the tank is not compatable with ethanol? I know in 'most' of my small engines, that crap has eaten gas lines, fuel fittings, gas caps, and gaskets...and these are newer engines too. I think newer cars have addressed this ethanol situation wholistically, but back in 2001/2002 maybe not everything in the fuel system was verified as ethanol compatible. I just wonder about that joint and ethanol. On a positive note, my 2001 GTS has 57K hard miles and no signs of leakage (knock on wood now). I did replace the polished factory filler cap with the black annodized aftermarket one and during installation, the filler tube was able to be moved around quite a bit. So it seemed to me to have the ability to flex (if needed).

 

[viper k]

can you get a linner sprayed in side it ?

 

[Luisv]

Food for thought and correct me if I'm wrong. Older GEN-IIs had the fill fitting in the top of the basket and not a separate fitting in the tank (from the pics I've seen of the older fuel baskets...right??) Curious as to why Dodge changed that design....just wondering. Also, I wonder what the effect of blended ethanol has with situation. Possibly the material used to seam/plastic weld the filler to/into the tank is not compatable with ethanol? I know in 'most' of my small engines, that crap has eaten gas lines, fuel fittings, gas caps, and gaskets...and these are newer engines too. I think newer cars have addressed this ethanol situation wholistically, but back in 2001/2002 maybe not everything in the fuel system was verified as ethanol compatible. I just wonder about that joint and ethanol. On a positive note, my 2001 GTS has 57K hard miles and no signs of leakage (knock on wood now). I did replace the polished factory filler cap with the black annodized aftermarket one and during installation, the filler tube was able to be moved around quite a bit. So it seemed to me to have the ability to flex (if needed).

On the filler neck fitting. I have not been able to find enough photos of the tanks to make year to year comparisons. There is one odd thing to me on the few photos I have seen of a 2000 fuel tank. The filler neck seems to be very low in relation to the top of the tank. While I know there is always a vapor space left on the top of the tanks, ie. you never really fill the tank with fluid, this seems to be very low. Once the fuel reaches the top of the filler neck, the tank will not fill more. If the neck would be a few inches higher, you could probably get at least another gallon or more in there and still have a large vapor space. The filler neck is about halfway up the side of the tank. At least from what I can tell.

On the Ethanol side... I had thought of that. Don't get me started on the freaking ethanol rant!... regardless, we have to deal with the crap. There is no way to really know as Dodge/Chrysler will deny the issue, but this is one of the reasons why I am looking at the aluminum tank as an option. Once in there, I may replace the lines as well and go to PTFE lines. I did that on the resto-mod Vette we are working on. Earl's Speedflex PTFE, carbon lined. Once I am in the back of the Viper... I may do that as well. The front side, hard line to engine fuel rail is a short piece. I may just do that to avoid issues.

can you get a linner sprayed in side it ?

Could be an option. I had not thought of that. I will look into it. The huge hole at the top for the fuel pump would make it easy to do. I had not considered that.

Thanks for the idea.... I'm off to do some homework.

 

[EllowViper]

Interesting article: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9607/Alvarado-9607.html#ToC16

Noteable quote: "Belgium-based Solvay is the exclusive supplier of plastic fuel tanks to General Motors' Saturn Division. Solvay has also expanded their Canadian subsidiary in Blenheim, Ontario, and installed two new blow-molding machines to make HDPE tanks for the Chrysler's LH series and Viper sports car. Chrysler expects to sell 300,000 LH vehicles, all with HDPE tanks that offer more volume capacity than steel tanks. Monolayer-HDPE tanks offer long-term structural integrity but will not meet future permeation requirements. Chrysler started to switch in 1995 to multilayered HDPE to meet the more stringent SHED test."

 

[EllowViper]

Concerning when you look at HDPE and chemical compatibility...re: the ingrediants in most octane boosters are not compatable with HDPE...So when looking at potential causes for tank seam failure, one has to consider if a lot of fuel additives were being used that were not "long term" compatible with HDPE. Just a thought.
http://www.calpaclab.com/Chemical-Compatibility-Chart-s/789.htm

 

[MikeG]

Just a quick question ... does anyone know if the earlier Gen II GTS fuel tanks are compatible with the 2001/2002 GTS Vipers? I would think they would be, but then again, maybe not.
I ask this, because if my replacement fuel tank fails again, I will probably be looking to go that route, if compatible.

Then again, maybe by that time, someone will have opted for replacement with an aluminum fuel cell, and the costs of the original initial blueprint will have been addressed, and purchase of such would not be cost prohibitive, making it an affordable option.

I sense that I am likely going to be going through this experience again.

 

[Dave T(BADVENM)]

Bringing up an old thread. My recently acquired 2002 GTS had about a half or little under a half tank of gas in it upon delivery and didn't leak. The car was near empty today so I put in about
10 gallons. I now have steady drips putting lots of fuel on my garage floor. I have something underneath to collect it now. Looks like I'll have to wait for it to get below the fuel neck to tank
line before it stops. I've had the car out a few times since delivery (when the fuel was below the filler neck line) and no issues whatsoever. Sounds like the filler neck issue has bitten me too.

Are there any Viper techs in the Denver area that can replace the tank and other items needed to fix this issue?