Gen IV w/ bolt ons? Gen 3 Paxtonized? Or ACR?

[black mamba1]

The only thng keeping me from going insane while I prepare to go to war with the insurance companies is the goal of having my Viper replaced and properly compensated (a local dealer totaled my Viper).

My Viper was n/a and had a built motor capable of withstanding 1000 rwhp, but I only had about 512 rwhp and like 537 rwtq tested on a Mustang Dyno. But the car was a dream to drive and the power was almost enough for me. I love the balance of the Viper without the s/c weight in the nose and the intercoolers, water tanks...etc

For my next Viper I definitely want a Gen IV. I wantto put a Belanger full exhaust system and a cam, hi flow air filters. Anyone have any kind of data as to what kind of power these mods will add to a GEn 4? Is a performance cam available for a Gen 4?

I am also considering an ACR, but I hate the fact that there are no convertible versions. Also several of my races with Vettes have exceeded speeds of 185 mph....and the ACR tops out at 177 right? Is there a an easy way to remove that ACR wing?

Or does it make more sense to get a Gen 3 and just Paxtonize it as far as cost goes? I dont really like this option b/c nice Gen 3's are running 45-60k, then add headers, exhaust, Paxton and fuel management and you are back to 80k, in the Gen 4 range.

Any ideas?

 

[Bobpantax]

There are convertible ACRs. Woodhouse has them. Call Bill Pemberton. You can do the headers and the Mopar controller. Forget the cam. The Venom program and the cam within a cam technology used on the Gen IV engine are not easily altered. Also, in case you did not notice the post, Arrow Racing Engines is working on a 4 or 5 pound twin screw supercharger kit for the Gen IV engine. The 2010 ACR tops out at 184 MPH due to the change in the fifth and sixth gear ratios and improved aerodynamics. I do not know whther the numbers would stay the same for a convertible. The non ACR version coupe for 2010 reaches 200 MPH 14 seconds faster than prior year Gen IVs due to the fifth and sixth gear ration changes. Particularly the fifth gear. Do some home work.

 

[Wolfc2e]

I am also considering an ACR, but I hate the fact that there are no convertible versions.

http://forums.viperclub.org/general-viper-discussion/637288-2010-summer-loving-acr-verts.html


Best of luck in your search!

 

[ViperTony]

I am also considering an ACR, but I hate the fact that there are no convertible versions.

Any ideas?

Keith....there 2010 ACR Convertibles my friend. Also, I believe the 2010 models have a revised 5th or 6th gear. There are few threads here about the special edition ACR Verts. Other than that I think you need a GenIII Paxton considering your driving habits/enjoyment.

 

[Bobpantax]

See above. Keith. When I was at CAAP on July first I saw an all black ACR convertible that still needed to be finished up. Call Bill and see if that was an inventory car or special ordered. It had "YOU" written all over it.

 

[black mamba1]

There are convertible ACRs. Woodhouse has them. Call Bill Pemberton. You can do the headers and the Mopar controller. Forget the cam. The Venom program and the cam within a cam technology used on the Gen IV engine are not easily altered. Also, in case you did not notice the post, Arrow Racing Engines is working on a 4 or 5 pound twin screw supercharger kit for the Gen IV engine. The 2010 ACR tops out at 184 MPH due to the change in the fifth and sixth gear ratios and improved aerodynamics. I do not know whther the numbers would stay the same for a convertible. The non ACR version coupe for 2010 reaches 200 MPH 14 seconds faster than prior year Gen IVs due to the fifth and sixth gear ration changes. Particularly the fifth gear. Do some home work.

As usual you provide excellent and very thorough info Bob. I have been away from the VCA sites for some months and am not up to speed on the latest stuff out there. The gear swap seems like an amazing upgrade, one that I will definitely do if I go Gen 4. I had a feeling the cam within a cam technology would be a ***** to mod, so I guess its just headers and Mopar for now.

 

[EZ 2B Green]

Here is something that you may like:

During my visit to Arrow Racing Engines on July 1, I was given a dyno chart of their new Gen III/IV Engine Upgrade Package. It is not yet approved for release but I understand it is forthcomming. It is NA and has a Gen III throttle body so I'm thinking it is cable driven (no drive by wire). Peak HP is 650 @5600 RPM and torque is 627 lb/ft @ 5000 RPM. It is a beast. I think this would satisfy your need for speed! Good luck!

 

[black mamba1]

Keith....there 2010 ACR Convertibles my friend. Also, I believe the 2010 models have a revised 5th or 6th gear. There are few threads here about the special edition ACR Verts. Other than that I think you need a GenIII Paxton considering your driving habits/enjoyment.

Now this is *** I am talking about!! Hey Tony...its bumblee yellow like yours! I would have to learn to drive a Paxtonized car. I never so much as put a scratch on my car (except the tiime I put the nose through the garage wall by starting it in gear unknowingly) and I was very used to her handling from 5 yrs of aggressive driving and throwing her around. I would have to re-learn the handling characteristics of a s/c car...but I gotta tell ya, I never lost a roll on race with my cream puff power by Paxton statndards.

As an engineer, I always defer to original engineers preferences when it comes to balancing a vehicle....but Bob Pantax has a Paxtonized car and apparently it runs like a dream.

But if Paxtonizing a GEn 3 with the support equipment is gonna run me 80k, I am gonna go with a Gen 4 and throw on the headers and Mopar kit.

 

[Bobpantax]

The 2010 comes with the new gears. You can upgrade the 2008 and 2009 Gen IV tranny with the new 5th and 6th gears if you can find someone who can get them. As we discussed yesterday, I will let you know how mine work out after I get the car back next week and test it a bit. I will call you.

 

[black mamba1]

See above. Keith. When I was at CAAP on July first I saw an all black ACR convertible that still needed to be finished up. Call Bill and see if that was an inventory car or special ordered. It had "YOU" written all over it.

Will do. Thanks Bob. It may be premature to be looking at 100k ACR's...but it doesnt hurt to dream.

I bought my first Viper based on a dream!

Depending on what happens in this situation.....that dream may be closer to reality than I may realize....

 

[black mamba1]

http://forums.viperclub.org/general-viper-discussion/637288-2010-summer-loving-acr-verts.html


Best of luck in your search!

Thanks buddy...hey, any info on what kind of power and ACR with Belangers can make?

 

[Bobpantax]

A Gen IV coupe with Belanger headers and a Mopar controller can make 665 flywheel HP. Some have made a bit more and some a bit less. Talk to Mark Jorgensen at Woodhouse about it. I assume that Chuck Tator has also done these mods to a Gen IV on more than one occasion. Isn't Underground racing in N.C.? If so, you might also want to call them.

 

[black mamba1]

Here is something that you may like:

During my visit to Arrow Racing Engines on July 1, I was given a dyno chart of their new Gen III/IV Engine Upgrade Package. It is not yet approved for release but I understand it is forthcomming. It is NA and has a Gen III throttle body so I'm thinking it is cable driven (no drive by wire). Peak HP is 650 @5600 RPM and torque is 627 lb/ft @ 5000 RPM. It is a beast. I think this would satisfy your need for speed! Good luck!

This is interesting and helpful. So, was the 650 for the GEn 3 engine or the GEn 4? I have heard of GEn 4 engines making 675 flywheel power just with bolt ons...anyone got data on this?

 

[EZ 2B Green]

We only discussed it with the Arrow staff briefly. There is just so much to see at their facility. It is a little overwhelming and I was preoccupied ordering some of their goodies for my Gen IV. I also saw a supercharged Gen4.

There is a picture of the Gen III/IV upgrade on the dyno chart I have. From the picture, It looks like a hybrid. Imagine a Gen3 with the Gen IV upgrades and some Arrow Racing Engine tuning.

(I didn't forget you Bob. I just don't have access to a fax until Monday).

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks EZ. I figured the delay was due to something like that.

 

[black mamba1]

We only discussed it with the Arrow staff briefly. There is just so much to see at their facility. It is a little overwhelming and I was preoccupied ordering some of their goodies for my Gen IV. I also saw a supercharged Gen4.

There is a picture of the Gen III/IV upgrade on the dyno chart I have. From the picture, It looks like a hybrid. Imagine a Gen3 with the Gen IV upgrades and some Arrow Racing Engine tuning.

(I didn't forget you Bob. I just don't have access to a fax until Monday).

You saw a supercharged Gen 4? I take it that it is not in production yet.

 

[EZ 2B Green]

No, It was just one of their many science projects.

 

[black mamba1]

A Gen IV coupe with Belanger headers and a Mopar controller can make 665 flywheel HP. Some have made a bit more and some a bit less. Talk to Mark Jorgensen at Woodhouse about it. I assume that Chuck Tator has also done these mods to a Gen IV on more than one occasion. Isn't Underground racing in N.C.? If so, you might also want to call them.

Yep...UR is right here in Charlotte. BUT, it seems as if they are for all practial purposes, impossible to reach. Those guys are great at Underground, but I think Kevin and the gang over there have so many high dollar clients that are sending them twin turbo mods on Lambo's, Benzes, even Audi's and Ferrari's...and these intallations run close to 100k per install. With their hands full with these kinds of projects they just never seem to get to basic Viper stuff.

I think the guys over there are very hands on and oversee each project, so it basically boils down to time. I dont think they have the time to oversee their 100k and 200k projects, and still deal with the low dollar Viper projects.

The times I have been able to reach the guys at UR, they have been wonderful...but they did turn down my supercharger install.

 

[black mamba1]

No, It was just one of their many science projects.

This has a Roe Racing feel to it.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Great bargains can be had with Gen 3's already equipped with Paxton, and maybe Motons.

No need to buy a unmodified Gen 3 and add the Paxton when you can buy the much more economically already modified.

Best of luck on your new car.

Are you sure it is going to be totaled? Maybe they can repair it.

 

[black mamba1]

Great bargains can be had with Gen 3's already equipped with Paxton, and maybe Motons.

No need to buy a unmodified Gen 3 and add the Paxton when you can buy the much more economically already modified.

Best of luck on your new car.

Are you sure it is going to be totaled? Maybe they can repair it.

This is a good question Paul. I dont really know, the engine still runs. But the car hit went over a concrete curb about some 8" high and hit some trees at 45 mph or higher. It is unknown what may have happened to the interanl components and the frame. I have had my car up to 191 mph before...I dont know if I would ever feel comfortable driving it at high speeds since its been wrecked.

A modded Gen 3 seems nice, especially since I have a Gen 4 hood at the body shop ready to be installed, as long as the Gen 3 mods were done by a respectable tuner.

 

[SilveRT8]

Thanks buddy...hey, any info on what kind of power and ACR with Belangers can make?

FYI
Here are the Dyno results I got from my 08 on different days but always on the same Dynojet dyno with 94 oct gaz and roughly similar temps.
All Stock : 545 rwhp 505.8 rwtq
Mopar PCM + Roe HF Cats /Stock mufflers : 563 rwhp 533.9 rwtq
Mopar PCM + Belanger /HF Cats /Stock mufflers:575.8 rwhp 548.6 rwtq

 

[plumcrazy]

id look at a built and already boosted Gen3 from one of the trusted tuners or a bolt on vert ACR Gen4

 

[ViperGeorge]

I have both a supercharged Gen 3 and a stock Gen 4. I track the Gen 3 as well as use it on the street. The Gen 3 is a bit easier to drive I think. The clutch on the Gen 4 takes some getting used to and I would stall it at least once every time I took it out during the first 6 months and I've driven a stick for 40 years.

The power in my Paxton car comes on smoothly but when it hits boost it builds quickly (smoothly but quickly). The Paxton car is very streetable but ungodly power is there when you want it. The Gen 4 is also wicked fast but the power comes on at higher RPMs than the Paxton Gen 3. While I've never actually driven a Turbo car the Gen 4 feels to me like I think a turbo would, docile until you get the reves up and then watch out.

Now the downside to a Paxton. It requires a good tune or you will break stuff, it likes Air/Fuel in the 11s under boost. Get into the 12s and you're flirting with disaster. Forged internals, while not necessary, are certainly a very good idea. Ask me how I know . There are a host of other things that would be a good idea with a Paxton. Bigger heat exchanger for the intercooler, fuel pressure gauge, A/F gauges, Boost gauge, different exhaust, fewer Cats or a high flow setup, SCT or DC Tune, etc. Cars from Doug Levin, DC Performance, or Woodhouse would have most of this stuff sorted out but you don't know what the previous owner has done.

Given that many Gen 4s (certainly the newer ones) still have a factory warranty, if I was going to do it over I would buy a Gen 4 and NOT a supercharged Gen 3. In fact I would consider trading my Gen 3 for a Gen 4 ACR.

 

[black mamba1]

I have both a supercharged Gen 3 and a stock Gen 4. I track the Gen 3 as well as use it on the street. The Gen 3 is a bit easier to drive I think. The clutch on the Gen 4 takes some getting used to and I would stall it at least once every time I took it out during the first 6 months and I've driven a stick for 40 years.

The power in my Paxton car comes on smoothly but when it hits boost it builds quickly (smoothly but quickly). The Paxton car is very streetable but ungodly power is there when you want it. The Gen 4 is also wicked fast but the power comes on at higher RPMs than the Paxton Gen 3. While I've never actually driven a Turbo car the Gen 4 feels to me like I think a turbo would, docile until you get the reves up and then watch out.

Now the downside to a Paxton. It requires a good tune or you will break stuff, it likes Air/Fuel in the 11s under boost. Get into the 12s and you're flirting with disaster. Forged internals, while not necessary, are certainly a very good idea. Ask me how I know . There are a host of other things that would be a good idea with a Paxton. Bigger heat exchanger for the intercooler, fuel pressure gauge, A/F gauges, Boost gauge, different exhaust, fewer Cats or a high flow setup, SCT or DC Tune, etc. Cars from Doug Levin, DC Performance, or Woodhouse would have most of this stuff sorted out but you don't know what the previous owner has done.

Given that many Gen 4s (certainly the newer ones) still have a factory warranty, if I was going to do it over I would buy a Gen 4 and NOT a supercharged Gen 3. In fact I would consider trading my Gen 3 for a Gen 4 ACR.

This is the perfect data I need.

I street race all the time..I know I am not supposed to say that here, but I will defend the Dodge brand and the Viper brand against anythng that pulls up next to me that has at least 6 cylinders. The Viper I have or had was wicked fast and I never lost a street race. Never. Ever. The acceleration was more than enough for roll ons, etc I allways won my challenges. Honestly, I think doing any of that with say 750 rwhp or more would be insanely dangerous. And I am just being frank here, most of my racing occurs on the streets when some Z06 is foolish enough to challenge me.

Now...I know I have not come across a Zr1 or a twin turbo Z06 on the street, but again, I think a modded Gen 4 would beat a stock Zr1, and a highly modded Gen 4 would beat a slightly modded Zr1, keeping power levels in the sub 700 rwhp levels. Anything more than that and I think street racing (while really kinda insane in the first place) is extremely dangerous and I dont think I would do it. The rate at which we approach other traffic and the fact that highways, streets, etc have unpredictable condidtions such as wet spots under overpasses, and road debris, deer, etc....

So, that brings me to this..I plan on doing most of my serous racing on the track. I would like to some day become an amateur racer...that is why I really wanna stay n/a. I know the Paxtons provide brutal power, but I caught hell predicting what my car would do under its current power levels and torque levels, I knew exactly when she would break loose, and I know how to throw her around. I am sure I could learn that with a Paxton, but I do not fancy the weight gain and heat soak issues on the track.

So far I am seeing Gen 4 mods obtaining power levels around 665 to 670 flywheel. I would really like to get up to 700-750 flyweel and stay n/a on a Gen 4. Is this possible without spending 25k and ruining the reliability?

 

[mbccenter]

The Gen 4 cars we have done our headers on are all in the 570-580 range for rwhp. They make a big difference and are a blast to drive. If you liked the speed of your last car this may be the way to go. The power does come on at higher rpms then a gen 3. Keep in mind that is where it will stop unless you spend 13k on a computer alone.

There are some good deals out there on gen 3 with a Paxton. These cars also need some more rpm's untill the boost comes on. I have a built engine with a paxton. The car is putting down 1k to the wheels and has no lag at all. This car is a blast to drive and I would take it over all of the above.

 

[Coloviper]

Sorry to hijack for a second, but what is this GEN IV Twin Screw from Arrow? Is it also being made for the GEN III as well. From a marketing standpoint, I would imagine so as there are a lot more GEN IIIs out there, than GEN IV hence larger market. I am VERY interested in the right kit. Can someone put me in touch with the right guys at Arrow to discus this? Just PM me.

Thanks
Rick

 

[ViperGeorge]

If you are going to track the car, the Gen 4 ACR is the way to go IMO. It already has the aero sorted out, great power, and adjustable suspension. You'd have to add this stuff to a Gen 3. You are also correct that a Paxton will heat soak on the track in warm conditions. Mine has a huge heat exchanger, 170 thermostat, and Gen 4 hood but after 15 minutes or so you can tell she starts to lose power. When it is heat soaked she's still probably faster than an stock Gen 3 but my guess is a Gen 4 would beat her.

I've driven at Pocono with its huge straightaways and my Gen 3 Paxton had no trouble keeping up with the ACRs and even pulling away some on the long bits. But in the twisties, the ACR's aero and suspension kicked my a$$. I had to drive the car very hard to try and keep up in the curves.

Warranty is a huge deal too.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Considering your price range, you may want to think about the Twin Turbo option. A basic TT kit on a Gen-3 will be within your range, and put down 700ish to the wheels without a problem. The newer TT kits available are also modular, and can be upgraded later if you should desire to do so, without having to re-purchase everything.

The Gen-4's are fantastic cars, come with a warranty, will respond the best to large mods, etc... and will certainly hold their value better- but they have a high starting price tag, and are very expensive to take into any type of forced induction category because you will need either a Pectel or a Motec controller to do so at $10,000 a pop. If you can swing it however, they are the best starting point possible now that technology has caught up. And that ACR Vert is DAMN ****.

And last but not least... what would you do if I told you that for the price of a nice Gen-4, I can build you a Gen-3... with a Gen-4 engine, trans, diff, etc.... all controlled by a Pectel SQ6M12 [a $10,000 controller, complete with Traction/Launch control, full digital heads up dash, etc] and ready for you to take on whatever type of Forced Induction you could want from a tuning/controller standpoint? [ha, not that I could even get to this soon... but it would be an option!] I could even take it to the next level for a bit more, and make it "Forced Induction Ready" drivetrain and or fuel system wise. Just pick your poison and bolt it on. This option would give you the best of all worlds; best price point, all the advantages of the Gen-4, with none of the disadvantages of controller issues. [I will actually have an example of a car like this completed in a month or so]

The options are limitless when you are starting from scratch!

 

[InjectTheVenom]

DEFINATELY would go for an ACR convertable if I had the chance!! That is one seriously unique ride!