Gen V Super Charger Option

[ViperSmith]

YOUR INTERPETATION of what hes saying is not correct (lol )Hes telling you the car is [PROFITABLE BECAUSE ITS ICONIC . Going back to 93 (when many of us started with the GEN 1 the value of the VIPER meant NOTHING TO THE COMPANYS LINE IN INDIVIDUAL SALES THE VALUE WAS IN THE ICONIC VALUE OF THE VIPER NAME not to mention most Viper owners bought 2-3 other Chrysler products )FIFTEEN HUNDRED Vipers per year is a deck chair falling off the Queen Mary in terms of individual profitability As posted previously Ferrarri sells cars for 350 k and loses money on the individual profitability .PS you you ever been personally involved with any protoype testing to actually see what it cost

There is no "interpretation" he flat out said, in plain old English "The 2013 Dodge Viper has to be profitable"

It means that the 2013 SRT Viper will create a profit for SRT. Now, sunk costs are amortized across the entire Gen V run, but that is true developing any product. The first one off the assembly line is always the "most expensive."

Use whatever caps lock'd logic you want to justify your opinion, because it is clearly at odds with what the man has said.

 

[ViperSmith]

And with that, I am done.

 

[Bobpantax]

I think that the only SRT vehicle that you will see an OEM supercharged engine in is going to be an SRT 8 vehicle. As Dick Winkles said, and as Ralph G. subsequently confirmed, the Gen V engine was toughened up to allow those of us who like to add boost after purchase to do so. Eventually, an outfit like Arrow will develop a kit. Arrow obviously has a close relationship with the SRT engineers including some code access. How else could they have been working on and calibrating the paxtonized Gen V engine being discussed here? We just need to be patient.

Maybe the engine is for Jay Leno? Maybe it is for the drifter I referenced above? Maybe it is for Dick himself? Maybe it is for Ralph G. One thing for sure, it is not for any of the posters on this thread. LOL.

 

[Jack B]

What do your last twenty posts have to do with a super charger? Let me try to be polite, why don't you start your own thread, you can then make that band box as high as you deem necessary. I sure wish I had one of those OLD VIPER GEN 2'S. tHASTS KHOW EVOLUUTIONNARY.

In 1996 dealers were routinely getting 10 grand plus OVER STICKER on a 60 k car .(In todays world that would equate to over 20 g over )Thats Khow revolutionary the OLD VIPERS WERE .Any dealers you know getting 20 k over on the Gen 5s

 

[ViperSmith]

What do your last twenty posts have to do with a super charger? Let me try to be polite, why don't you start your own thread, you can then make that band box as high as you deem necessary. I sure wish I had one of those OLD VIPER GEN 2'S. tHASTS KHOW EVOLUUTIONNARY.

Apologize for participating in the offtopic'ing

 

[JAY]

OK Now back to this !
http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2013/03/supercharged-v10-moving-forward

 

[A1998]

Hey Guys, you are reading in too much of the picture of the Hemi Engine with the Gen IV fuel system just sitting on top of it. (Post # 31) I was standing next to this engine talking with Lee about it, as Winkles was standing beside me also. Lee bought all the engines and blocks that Dodge had when they thought they were going out of business. In the warehouse he found these two items. The engine is the Hemi that ( I think Sjoberg) was going to initially put into the Viper at first. Lee was telling me when ( I think it was Tom Gale & Bob Lutz) found out about this, they went bezerk and stated no way was anything except a V-10 going into the Viper! They pulled it and put it in storage. On top of the engine is the original mock up of the GenIV fuel induction system. These are strictly warehouse items that Lee put on display. This came straight from Lee and Winkles conferred!

 

[Boxer12]

FWIW, My motor has 700 HP (608 rwhp) without supercharging (Winkles himself estimated 15% drive line loss one day at a VCA event). P&P heads and intake with race exhaust. Why can't they build this at SRT for a limited edition Viper? Call it a SuperSnake or something.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Hey Guys, you are reading in too much of the picture of the Hemi Engine with the Gen IV fuel system just sitting on top of it. (Post # 31) I was standing next to this engine talking with Lee about it, as Winkles was standing beside me also. Lee bought all the engines and blocks that Dodge had when they thought they were going out of business. In the warehouse he found these two items. The engine is the Hemi that ( I think Sjoberg) was going to initially put into the Viper at first. Lee was telling me when ( I think it was Tom Gale & Bob Lutz) found out about this, they went bezerk and stated no way was anything except a V-10 going into the Viper! They pulled it and put it in storage. On top of the engine is the original mock up of the GenIV fuel induction system. These are strictly warehouse items that Lee put on display. This came straight from Lee and Winkles conferred!

That was a sidebar question I asked. That is not the supercharged viper motor people are asking about.

 

[kdaviper]

FWIW, My motor has 700 HP (608 rwhp) without supercharging (Winkles himself estimated 15% drive line loss one day at a VCA event). P&P heads and intake with race exhaust. Why can't they build this at SRT for a limited edition Viper? Call it a SuperSnake or something.

lol, why don't you ask good ole' Uncle Sam...

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I think that the only SRT vehicle that you will see an OEM supercharged engine in is going to be an SRT 8 vehicle. As Dick Winkles said, and as Ralph G. subsequently confirmed, the Gen V engine was toughened up to allow those of us who like to add boost after purchase to do so. Eventually, an outfit like Arrow will develop a kit. Arrow obviously has a close relationship with the SRT engineers including some code access. How else could they have been working on and calibrating the paxtonized Gen V engine being discussed here? We just need to be patient.

Maybe the engine is for Jay Leno? Maybe it is for the drifter I referenced above? Maybe it is for Dick himself? Maybe it is for Ralph G. One thing for sure, it is not for any of the posters on this thread. LOL.

The engine in those pictures is NOT a development engine it IS for a private (one of our past) customers and is only loosely a Gen4 engine. There is no coding that Arrow can do with the factory Venom controller that would accommodate what they have built and added the S/C to. It uses a complete aftermarket engine control set up, ie race car. There is really nothing left to say about it.

As Bob alluded to there will never be a factory S/C Viper engine, and even the SRT8 engines will be lucky to ever get the re development (Chassis changes are expensive also) to install the added hardware to do it. That doesn't mean we won't possibly see an aftermarket option from them as a Mopar kit.

 

[HANKFAN]

The engine in those pictures is NOT a development engine it IS for a private (one of our past) customers and is only loosely a Gen4 engine. There is no coding that Arrow can do with the factory Venom controller that would accommodate what they have built and added the S/C to. It uses a complete aftermarket engine control set up, ie race car. There is really nothing left to say about it.

As Bob alluded to there will never be a factory S/C Viper engine, and even the SRT8 engines will be lucky to ever get the re development (Chassis changes are expensive also) to install the added hardware to do it. That doesn't mean we won't possibly see an aftermarket option from them as a Mopar kit.

Mark, in your opinion do you think Mopar will release a supercharger kit for the Gen V Viper at some point or release the code so that the aftermarket can supply one? If so what is your guess at a time frame?

Most of the guys that I know who want the new Viper want to tinker with them. SRT has finally given us a platform that is just begging for a boosted application. If SRT doesn't release the ability for customers to modify these cars at some point I see it hurting the sales of the Gen V.

 

[Kevan]

Obviously IF SOMEONE is saying you can get 700 hp without supercharging they dont understand the ENTIRE PROCESS

Sorry man, but:

http://www.ilmor.com/en/marine/performance/MV10-725.aspx

 

[VENOM V]

Sorry man, but:

http://www.ilmor.com/en/marine/performance/MV10-725.aspx

Interesting. Would it pass emissions?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Interesting. Would it pass emissions?

No and it uses a different EMS then a Viper, along with some other "not so stock parts"

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Mark, in your opinion do you think Mopar will release a supercharger kit for the Gen V Viper at some point or release the code so that the aftermarket can supply one? If so what is your guess at a time frame?

Most of the guys that I know who want the new Viper want to tinker with them. SRT has finally given us a platform that is just begging for a boosted application. If SRT doesn't release the ability for customers to modify these cars at some point I see it hurting the sales of the Gen V.

My opinion on the S/C kit is probably not, but we can hope.

I believe unless someone with more brains (doubtful IMO) or at least connections then SRT can crack the Venom controller (let alone the Venom2), they will never release "open source tuning". (although somehow the 6.4L SRT PCM has recently been fully hacked and I can offer ProChargers ready to install so who knows...) I believe we will see another off road PCM for the Gen5 that will probably allow for the same mods the Gen4 car could get away with, just don't know when... I for one hope it is sooner then later like everyone else.

 

[madninjaskillz]

Mark, I really hope you are wrong about that. From any perspective, marketing, aftermarket, sales.. etc it doesn't make sense to keep the ECU codes away from gear heads/ modders. SRT only hurts themselves on this front and I don't know what their logic is behind it. The engine is built to be super/turbo'd. I know I am reiterating what some others have said, but SRT needs to take notice and release the cracken already.

 

[HANKFAN]

My opinion on the S/C kit is probably not, but we can hope.

I believe unless someone with more brains (doubtful IMO) or at least connections then SRT can crack the Venom controller (let alone the Venom2), they will never release "open source tuning". (although somehow the 6.4L SRT PCM has recently been fully hacked and I can offer ProChargers ready to install so who knows...) I believe we will see another off road PCM for the Gen5 that will probably allow for the same mods the Gen4 car could get away with, just don't know when... I for one hope it is sooner then later like everyone else.

I just noticed that as well that Procharger is now shipping kits for the new Challengers and Ram trucks. Since they were able to crack the tuning code on these hopefully the new Viper will come along as well.

http://www.procharger.com/supercharger/blog/?p=571

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Mark, I really hope you are wrong about that. From any perspective, marketing, aftermarket, sales.. etc it doesn't make sense to keep the ECU codes away from gear heads/ modders. SRT only hurts themselves on this front and I don't know what their logic is behind it. The engine is built to be super/turbo'd. I know I am reiterating what some others have said, but SRT needs to take notice and release the cracken already.

It has been said in other threads, Chrysler/SRT does not own the rights to the programming software so they cannot be the ones to release it, it is not theirs to do so with from what I understand. SRT wants to make it easier for people to play, but they can only do so much legally I guess.

 

[JAY]

It's some what ironic , Mopar in the 60's and 70's through Direct Connection , promoted Car Clinics and lots of Mods . And devoloped a Win/Win through more sales for both New cars and the back parts counter. It's unfortunate that the Blue Oval guys do a better job of this.

 

[Boxer12]

lol, why don't you ask good ole' Uncle Sam...

seriously, Mopar already sells the parts so why can't SRT put a Mopar car out with these special parts on it? My car started with 600 HP so the new Viper would be more like 750 with P&P heads etc. Put this on the new ACR?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

seriously, Mopar already sells the parts so why can't SRT put a Mopar car out with these special parts on it? My car started with 600 HP so the new Viper would be more like 750 with P&P heads etc. Put this on the new ACR?

Nothing they sell is emissions legal and nothing they sell has a warranty.

 

[klamathpro]

SRT will release a PCM that will allow mods on GEN-V. In talking with Winkles and Graham, the engine was designed to allow for serious modding.

 

[Bobpantax]

If an alternative controller is released, it will be through MOPAR not through SRT. I also do not see the controller being competely open code although I wish it would be. It is likely to be similar to what was done for the Gen IV. As for the comments above regarding SRT bumping up the power level to 700 with a few optional mods that would be OEM and subject to warranty coverage, I do not see that happening either. The durability tests, also mentioned above, are taken very seriously and the 200,000 mile number is the number I have heard mentioned by both Mr. Winkles and Ralph G. at public events.

Someone who can afford a proper twin turbo set up will not be slowed down by this. They will use a MOTEC or an AEM controller in conjunction with the stock controller and get it done just as it was eventually done for the Gen IV.

But it should be remembered that the market for a Viper that produces power at such levels is tiny. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Viper owners barely have the driving skill set to handle the stock level of 640 HP ( the Gen V with street/drag radials is a sub 11 second car). This is, in part, evidenced by the fact that it has been estimated that as many as 1/3 of all Vipers produced are no longer around due to accidents.

 

[Wolfc2e]

It has been said in other threads, Chrysler/SRT does not own the rights to the programming software so they cannot be the ones to release it, it is not theirs to do so with from what I understand. SRT wants to make it easier for people to play, but they can only do so much legally I guess.

This is true, but there's a much bigger issue at hand...

Mark, I really hope you are wrong about that. From any perspective, marketing, aftermarket, sales.. etc it doesn't make sense to keep the ECU codes away from gear heads/ modders. SRT only hurts themselves on this front and I don't know what their logic is behind it. The engine is built to be super/turbo'd. I know I am reiterating what some others have said, but SRT needs to take notice and release the cracken already.

It's some what ironic , Mopar in the 60's and 70's through Direct Connection , promoted Car Clinics and lots of Mods . And devoloped a Win/Win through more sales for both New cars and the back parts counter. It's unfortunate that the Blue Oval guys do a better job of this.

The real issue is liability. Releasing the ECU code would be analogous to the 1960s version of releasing the mapping between serial number and physical key... Think about it for a minute and you'll realize why it's such a huge liability issue. When someone cracks the code the parent company is released from the liability of the changes made as legal claims against the manufacture would hold no water. The best SRT can do (and thankfully they have done it) is make the foundation prime for upgrades once the initial hurdle has been passed by the computer geeks. It can and will be done.

Bob has the most likely scenario:

I also do not see the controller being competely open code although I wish it would be. It is likely to be similar to what was done for the Gen IV.

Returning to the original post, I fully suspect Mr. Winkles and company are simply testing the engine with the supercharger to see what the limits of the engine are and if anything can be improved. They too know folks will soon be bolting on these kits and need to be ready to answer the questions that will arise. Ever watched the Engineer's Chat? They're filled with questions about aftermarket parts.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

This is true, but there's a much bigger issue at hand...





The real issue is liability. Releasing the ECU code would be analogous to the 1960s version of releasing the mapping between serial number and physical key... Think about it for a minute and you'll realize why it's such a huge liability issue. When someone cracks the code the parent company is released from the liability of the changes made as legal claims against the manufacture would hold no water. The best SRT can do (and thankfully they have done it) is make the foundation prime for upgrades once the initial hurdle has been passed by the computer geeks. It can and will be done.

Bob has the most likely scenario:




Returning to the original post, I fully suspect Mr. Winkles and company are simply testing the engine with the supercharger to see what the limits of the engine are and if anything can be improved. They too know folks will soon be bolting on these kits and need to be ready to answer the questions that will arise. Ever watched the Engineer's Chat? They're filled with questions about aftermarket parts.

From post #71
The engine in those pictures is NOT a development engine it IS for a private (one of our past) customers and is only loosely a Gen4 engine. There is no coding that Arrow can do with the factory Venom controller that would accommodate what they have built and added the S/C to. It uses a complete aftermarket engine control set up, ie race car. There is really nothing left to say about it.

 

[Wolfc2e]

From post #71
The engine in those pictures is NOT a development engine it IS for a private (one of our past) customers and is only loosely a Gen4 engine. There is no coding that Arrow can do with the factory Venom controller that would accommodate what they have built and added the S/C to. It uses a complete aftermarket engine control set up, ie race car. There is really nothing left to say about it.

Woops, missed that. Thanks for the clarification for those of us who cannot read

 

[Coloviper]

After waiting forever and a day for a non-Paxton Supercharger alternative for my old GEN III Coupe when I had it, all I can say is "don't hold your breath". I just can't see it happening from the factory! It never took for the GEN III (beyond a Paxton) and absolutely nothing for a GEN IV and it will be absolutlely nothing for a GEN V.

The guys that say it is so easy to pump the power up have literally zero idea what is involved in the big picture with strict emissions. When I could not get a 100% stock GEN III Viper to pass the new 01/01/2012 emmissions standards in Colorado with just a full Bellanger (headers, hi-flo cats and cat back) set up, you realize how close to the edge these new Viper engines are running with emissions and durability involved. I can tell you the new GEN V at 640HP had a ton of trouble to meet the emissions regs as evident with the two trips to Colorado for high altitude testing and what the SRT engineers would share in discussions over dinner.

Be very happy you have a 640 hp motor in the new car. Taking it much above there with the current pushrod block, NA set-up, etc. is going to be very, very, very difficult if it is to meet the current and upcoming regs. It is NOT just high mpg ratings the new future cars have to comply with. The out of control EPA literally wants the exhaust to come out cleaner than what gets sucked into the intake in their fantasy world.

If it ever became available in a perfect world, it would be an off-road only Mopar Supercharger accessory which would void the warranty of the Viper completely and immediately upon turning the key. Can't see this happening in a 1,500 to 2,000 yearly run of cars, unless the supercharegr is completely backward compatible to GEN IV and GEN III where the number of cars is greater. Only requires a different intake for the GEN III cars. Again, that is a perfect world and just don't see it happening.

Now a supercharger on the current SRT-8 platforms is very realistic due to numbers and would be nice to see it. The new JEEP SRT8 is almost there, just lacking that 600 HP supercharged motor. Same with the rest of the SRT-8 line. Due to the numbers of vehicles involved though, it would be a tame 5 psi TVS set-up that works with full warranty and durability. Hopefully it would be factory but even a dealer installed mopar product would be acceptable.

You guys have to remember, how finicky and durable was a 640hp Hemi car back in the 60s and 70s? This is a totally different time we live in. It is the joke EPA's greatest achievement as they save the world from itself. All sense of common sense is all but gone.

I just would not wait around for a supercharger and doubt we will see one in the Viepr. The SRT-8? There is a good chance there as they have to do something to compete. NA will not cut it with the V6s, and V8s.

 

[01sapphirebob]

Where is the positive thinking here? Why is it so rediciolus to think that SRT is working on a supercharger for the Viper? Just playing devils advocate here but seriously. It may not be next year but what about the year after? Why say in almost all of the press they have done that they beefed up the bottom end of the motor because "we know owners like to mod their cars" when the GEN IV was pratcially not modable unless you got the PCM from MOPAR and even then you couldn't do anything with forced induction. Maybe this is their answer for those that want it. Sure cost could be rediciolus BUT its there if you want it.

I would also have to believe that it would be a factory option NOT a MOPAR option. Looking at what they have done with the viper there is already three versions of our beloved snake with two more on the way. So to think that they won't make a supercharger An option from the factory seems a little strange to me. This isn't the viper of 10 years ago folks. This is the SRT Viper. The Viper with All kinds of options. I remember when you could only get a choice of color and that was it. Then it was coupe or roadster. THEN it was roadster, coupe,ACR, stripes or not. Lets face it folks...change is in the air for the snake and I just feel that should this come to fruition it's gonna be a supercharged snake right from the factory. As some magazines have said "This isn't your fathers viper."

All this change is a good thing and while its bitter sweet (for me) its great to see the viper evolve/shed its skin.

 

[Bobpantax]

An SRT supercharger option for the Gen V is just not going to happen. And, I do not think it will happen through Mopar either. Mopar did not offer a supercharger option for the Gen I,II, III or IV. It ain't happening for the Gen V. I recommend that people stop dreaming about this and move on from the issue. Those who want boost will eventually figure out a way to achieve it in the aftermarket like we did with all the other prior generations. It will just be more money until the code is cracked enough to allow a custom calibration of the stock controller which will make a supercharger application kit less expensive.

In the meantime, expecting an off road MOPAR controller like the one sold by MOPAR for the Gen IV is not an unreasonable expectation.


JM2Cs.

Where is the positive thinking here? Why is it so rediciolus to think that SRT is working on a supercharger for the Viper? Just playing devils advocate here but seriously. It may not be next year but what about the year after? Why say in almost all of the press they have done that they beefed up the bottom end of the motor because "we know owners like to mod their cars" when the GEN IV was pratcially not modable unless you got the PCM from MOPAR and even then you couldn't do anything with forced induction. Maybe this is their answer for those that want it. Sure cost could be rediciolus BUT its there if you want it.

I would also have to believe that it would be a factory option NOT a MOPAR option. Looking at what they have done with the viper there is already three versions of our beloved snake with two more on the way. So to think that they won't make a supercharger An option from the factory seems a little strange to me. This isn't the viper of 10 years ago folks. This is the SRT Viper. The Viper with All kinds of options. I remember when you could only get a choice of color and that was it. Then it was coupe or roadster. THEN it was roadster, coupe,ACR, stripes or not. Lets face it folks...change is in the air for the snake and I just feel that should this come to fruition it's gonna be a supercharged snake right from the factory. As some magazines have said "This isn't your fathers viper."

All this change is a good thing and while its bitter sweet (for me) its great to see the viper evolve/shed its skin.