.... for $17K....
Getting a GTS to Gen IV Power
- Thread starter SeaViper
- Start date
.... for $17K....
For what it is worth - at a recent track event a Gen 4 with aftermarket exhausts, headers and head work dyno'ed at 620 rwhp on a track dyno (75 Degrees F). I raced him twice with an NA Gen 2 and had one mph (128.7) better in trap speed. The point is, a Gen 2 with the right work is very close to the Gen 4. The Gen IV's sure are nice though.
Darth Menace
Enthusiast
What are your mods. In your gen 2? Just so we have something to compare to
I don't think i would be in at 17K. That seems a little steep. But that doesn't meen i'm not interested still.
Darth Menace
Enthusiast
There seem to be not much specs on this kit. For $6000 it seemed temptiong, but there isn't much info to back it up. TT is seeming more tempting.............
That's what their site states....
cerveza v10
Viper Owner
The gen 4 car you were talking about was having some issues that weekend.... it has now been 135.9 ....
I would do "stryker" heads if I were in your shoes.....the gen 2 cars love those heads with a good cam!!
Lawrenzo
Enthusiast
Stryker heads are no longer available if my memory serves me correctly.
JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE
Enthusiast
we have a few sets, strikers are still available , they have none at the moment an will not until first of year, at the moment I have a gen III set 75cc and a R set for a Gen II, but we have a few projects here soon with GG heads , and we hope to be able to keep a set of two of his on the shelf.
I'm almost positive that you are correct. If Mopar Performance would just release that awesome Gen IV cylinder head package it would be the answer. I think the big problem is that numerous people have been bad mouthing the package available for the Gen III. I'd put the blame on those individuals. Mopar and VPA came together to sell these FACTORY engineered kits for virtually nothing, and people still bashed them. It bogles my mind. " Oh they don't include the headers or the cam" gee twenty thousand in parts for $6500. UGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Edit....it looks like JTS says they will be available...good news. Except that Mopar Performance kit will make them obsolete, except for the most wild combo's. PS I own and love my Strikers, but you aren't getting a complete package for $6,500..............
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This has been done. I did it with the Greg Good treatment. GG heads and cam, headers, rockers, etc. (listed in my sig). Others have done it too. Streetable but will generate a pucker vortex when getting on it.
I documented my build here: My Creampuff NA Build . At the time, I put down 560ish rwhp but was running rich and didn't finish tuning. Since then I had Greg port my intake but have yet to tune. Perhaps the biggest challenge is finding and working with a tuner. Where I'm located in CT, it completely ***** as there are few dyno facilities and few SCT tuners none of which are worth anything. I've had some success tuning remotely using AC Performance the last time around but it's a pain in the ass not having someone tuning my Viper hands on. I'm trying to get the final tuning done before winter hits here. But it's been a blast driving the Viper. It so much fun and sounds like armageddon is coming. Dying to see what the Viper is putting down now. Even running rich it's a beast. Can't say enough great things about it.The Stryker heads I believe are around $8,000 and doesn't include headers or cam but does include Jesel rockers if I'm not mistaken. They are magnificent heads. My build (GG Heads/Cam/Intake/Lifters/Pushrods/Rockers/Headers/Exhaust/SCT/Tuning/Gaskets/Fluids) was just under $8K but I did the labor. With labor, expect over $10K for same. Is it worth it? I believe it is and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again with Greg.
Had the Mopar Performance Package been out for the GenII at the time, I would've considered it. However, I most likely would've passed on it simply because there are no documented testimonials about the package. Nobody has posted here on the forums about their experience on the package, results, etc. What bothers me the most is that Mopar is not here on the forums advertising/explaining or defending the package. The price is right $6,500 with Venom discount. Even though it does not include everything it's a great head start and a great deal on the parts. I believe once a few Viper owners install and post their experience with the package, it may garner more support/popularity but it's relatively an 'unknown' at this point in time.
If Mopar really wanted this package to sell, they would ask for a donor Viper and see the upgrade through, document it thoroughly and post results. This would more than likely shut up the naysayers. Only when we have actual real-world experience with the package will it be taken seriously. Better yet, enlist one of our experienced and reputable site sponsors and work with them to install the package on a members' Viper.
In the meantime, we have a great options whether it's Greg Good, Viper Specialty, AC Performance, just to name a few that come to mind. But 600hp is more than achieveable on a GenII.
Heads, cam, headers,1.7 rockers, cat less exhaust and SCT tune
What isn't mentioned;
That is literally half a brand new engine, ALL of the associated accessories from intake filter/box to exhaust tips, and even including items such as; near $400 in stainless steel ARP 12-pt hardware, real pushrods, plugs, shielded wires, etc, INSTALLED, and Dyno-Tuned... with options that the competition does not even offer.
Is our package more expensive than the competition? ABSOLUTELY it is, by about 2K if you actually add up all of the items missing in the other packages out there compared to ours. But, you get what you pay for. Compare the competitions part content and design to ours. Now compare the visual aspect of theirs compared to ours. That's where the money went.
We don't cut corners, ever. I refuse to market a package that is stripped down and cheapened up to compete with anyone else on price alone- its not my philosophy, and in all honesty, I am too damn OCD to let myself do it. The irony however is that every time I have had someone ask if they could cut the cost down by getting less options [And the answer is YES!], they opt to add them back in before the end of the conversation anyway
It seems that people shop on price more than ever these days, but they fail to realize that at the end of the day, the price tag for cheaper packages is often the same or more than the expensive ones. By the time you finish spending additional time and leg work gathering parts, waiting for & shipping items, sorting out problems you wouldn't have had otherwise, making corrections along the way and/or nickel-and-dime'ing the package to a happy completion... you could have went with a full bells and whistles package for a little more, and in some cases, less! Case in point, a customer opted to utilize a ported head and cam package, and had it installed by a local shop. They made a mess of it, installed items it didn't need, and caused problems that were never there before as a result, then had to ship it here to be completely redone. He did this to save money... but by the end of it, he spent way more than it would have cost to install a VS-X700 package, all-in, the first time around. Unfortunately, that's an all too common theme in itself.
Our packages are not for everyone, I know that quite well. People purchase our packages and products because they don't want to question later whether or not it could have been improved, or if they made the right choice because of reliability, driveability, or appearance issues. I won't build a car or sell a part that is not on par or exceeding OE level quality and reliability. I don't like things that look "cobbled together", and I absolutely will not tolerate "good enough" on anything- to the point of blatant obsession at times... just ask Nader, haha. I do my best to make packages and additions flow and compliment the entire car and experience.
Perfection. That is our only requirement.
I think that sums us up quite well
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Or it could just be that the Gen-2 application is considerably more involved to complete, and would require a different approach on multiple components. Their design does not lends itself to adaption into Gen-2 nearly as easily as ours does.
And really... when was the last time Mopar performance did or didn't do something based on the things that a few people said, especially when it was absolutely justified, true, and resulted in them changing their marketing approach? You would say something too if it affected YOUR customer base, and YOUR customers started questioning how/what/why something that was claimed compares to the reality of the situation. It was not marketed with full disclosure at first, and that's all there is to it. From a competing entity standpoint, what they did created immediate and unjustified headaches for both current/potential VS-X700 customers, as well as new customers installing the Mopar kit itself.
Conversations go like this:
I want the VS-X700 package. -> OK, that costs X. -> But why is the Mopar package so much cheaper- it comes with the same parts? -> No it doesn't, not even close. -> But Mopar says it is complete and makes 650HP, I don't need those extra parts.
Which leads to...
I want the Mopar kit installed. -> OK, you need X,X,X to make it right. -> Why? Mopar says its all there! You are trying to screw me.
-OR-
I want the Mopar kit installed. -> OK, you need X at a minimum -> Understood, install. -> Completed, car makes <600 horsepower. -> Its YOUR fault! Mopar says that it should make 650HP without any of those parts! You are a bad tuner!
Seeing where I am coming from yet? It becomes a lose-lose competing with Mopar, because as far as the customer is concerned these days, they are right... even when they are wrong.
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Dan as I've said before, the Viper market has let's just say evolved. I don't envy your position, at least not when it comes with dealing with customers. I can tell you this, the same guy complaining about the Mopar kit will tell everyone your 700 kit is a ripoff. These are the guys who know nothing and are never happy unless they feel like they got something for nothing.
I would certainly agree with everything you have said here... but it makes me wonder if we were on the same topic on the last post(s). I thought you were referring to the "ripple" that I was probably a good bit responsible for when calling out Mopar on what was included, missing, and horsepower claims that "do not compute" when they first released the package. Perhaps you were talking about something/someone else- not sure anymore.
However, yes, this market no longer gives any respect to speak of towards low-volume products/packages, custom builds, custom parts, and specialized items. Dare I say, it is starting to scream "Mustang" as everyone leans towards caring only about cost, and zero about what really goes into producing things, or the actual quality of an item so long as it "works". You can explain why something is more expensive/higher quality until you are blue in the face, and the customer will still tell you its overpriced and buy some lower quality part for three dollars less. The irony is that these are the same people who get angry at vendors for not producing a particular product, and complain when they have problems with the responsible parts & vendors.
Add that to the in-fighting between vendors chasing the same cheese, the nut-swinging, bogus products and self-proclaimed geniuses who don't know the first thing about what they are actually doing... and everyone may as well grab a bowl of popcorn, the next five years will be entertaining. We can only hope the new car pulls the value of these cars back up, or the writing is on the wall for ever getting this market back where it was in development about five years ago.
I really hate to be all "doom and gloom" -in fact we are picking up & expanding, not slowing down- and I thank the people who truly understand why businesses and builders like us exist. But at the same time, while we build more for one side of the aisle who appreciates what we do, the other side is screaming louder than ever that everything is too expensive, and its rather disheartening. I also know that we are by no means the only business in this market feeling this particular pinch, it seems to be systemic.
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vipzilla
Viper Owner
yes this definetly is b/s im sorry
FastMatt
Enthusiast
on the internet there will always be **** talkers, haters, and cheep asses. Just ignore those people because you dont want them as customers any way.
Just to be clear Dan, I was never referring to any comments you made about the kit. It's one thing when an expert like yourself points out the potential missing links or potential HP of a product. It's an entirely different issue when guys bad mouth a product based on an experience of a single individual (example) who they read about on the net. That is what annoys me. Coming from the GM world where GM Performance parts has such an awesome lineup of reasonably priced aftermarket parts, it was a shocker to me that there was virtually nothing for the Viper. Now eight years later Mopar has woken up and is supporting a product that has long expired. It's awesome that they are spending the cash to bring these goodies out, and coincidentally the guys that are now buying these cars up for cheap are bashing a product and company they know nothing about. If you could turn back the clocks, I would have bought this kit in a heartbeat over my current setup.
Just a little side note, I spoke to the guy that developed this kit at VOI. It is completed and just requires final testing and tuning. I do believe that Mopar is listening and watching this forum, and bad reviews of the GEN III kit could put the GEN II kit on a permanent shelf. I'd say that's a bad thing for everyone involved. On a final note, I envy guys like you and Dan Craigin and others who have made a living working on these beasts. Sometimes I think about what road I might have gone down if I had taken the chance to do what you guys have done. Keep up the awesome work.
Hey guys, I have seen several references in this thread about some Mopar kit.
Is this the kit that hasnt come out yet for the Gen 2 but is available for the Gen 3?
Anyone have a link to the Mopar kit as I couldnt find it by googling it, Id like to have a look.
Thanks
Is this the kit that hasnt come out yet for the Gen 2 but is available for the Gen 3?
Anyone have a link to the Mopar kit as I couldnt find it by googling it, Id like to have a look.
Thanks
troublemaker
Enthusiast
Searching has been a lost cause, so I'll just ask. I am curious about a NA Gen 2 build. What does a set of Strikers run ready to bolt on? What is all involved as far as fuel supply goes? Then the same questions for a Gen 4 heads/intake? In the end, how do the two set ups compare.
BlackOutBoxing
Enthusiast
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I did Greg good heads and manifold and a comp cam. The car had headers and exhaust. I put 70mm throttle bodies. I'm making just about 600 to the wheels. just get in touch with Greg and tell him what ur goal is. U really don't have a choice! If u want the best u go to mr Greg good. It's pretty simple
BlackOutBoxing
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I did Greg good heads and manifold and a comp cam. The car had headers and exhaust. I put 70mm throttle bodies. I'm making just about 600 to the wheels. just get in touch with Greg and tell him what ur goal is. U really don't have a choice! If u want the best u go to mr Greg good. It's pretty simple
I cannot comment on the new striker pricing, but the old ones were roughly in the 7-10K range for heads/gaskets/cam/rockers/pushrods- to get the most, you would still need intake, exhaust, manifold work, throttle bodies, tune, etc.
If starting from bone stock zero modifications, the two option paths should be similarly priced, as they have similar total part requirements. The primary performance difference will relate to the fact that the Strikers are restricted by the stock manifold, where the Gen-4 parts include a replacement manifold which is far superior.
I swear I am approaching the point of giving someone a nice little discount on a Gen-2 VS-X700 end this question once and for all. Horsepower does NOT tell the whole story in all circumstances.
troublemaker
Enthusiast
I don't remember exactly where I asked about Horsepower, and really don't care about the final numbers, which is why I asked how the compared not what kind of Dyno numbers I can expect. I would really like to have the power of a Gen 4, I just happen to like the looks of the Gen 2. In the end I want to have my cake and eat it too. Unfortunately this information isnt easy to find for a 2/4 merge, all the info is for the 3/4 builds. My apologies for asking the questions. I wish I could take you up on a build right now, but unfortunately I am what the Viper buyer has "evolved" into.
ElevatortecGTS
Viper Owner
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I have a supercharged 347cid Monster Miata for sale..once thats sold Dan at Viper speciality will be my first call
Hello,
If I am reading the tone of your message correctly, you are taking much of what I said out of context. The fact is, that last sentence was a general statement, and not even directed at you specifically. That being said, in general, when someone asks about performance, they are talking about horsepower, not area under the curve or drivability.
If you are dead set on the looks of a Gen-2 intake manifold, then your mind is made up. There is no way of mating a Gen-4 head to a Gen-2 manifold, you would need to go the Striker route to retain the appearance. Also, there have not been any completed and tested Gen-2/Gen-4 conversions as far as I am aware, which is why I stated I may be willing to work with someone in order to put this speculation to rest. I am not concerned about the completion, our version of the conversion set lends itself to a Gen-2 application much more so than the Mopar conversion kit.
My primary point in the last sentence was that Horsepower does not tell the whole story. For example, we have built multiple N/A builds from mild to wild from other suppliers/manufacturers, and without question, the VS-X700 is the most comprehensive of them all. The other styles may put down similar numbers, but driving them all back to back would unequivocally pin the VS-X700 as the superior build. If I could convince Nader to give rides in his car or demo that car to potential buyers, I would not have to even make a sales pitch to seal the deal.
"The car makes that much power, and still drives like THIS, with cats, and still passes emissions? SOLD."
I would really like the opportunity at some point to build a Gen-2 version of it, just to answer the questions once and for all about if it can be done [Yes], how much power, and what it will look and drive like.
I will be waiting! Hopefully you might be the owner of the build I am talking about!
Great!
How little of a discount?
Honestly I am open to negotiation. I would have to take into consideration the car in question, proximity to us or general location [usefulness as an example], willingness to leave our badging/banner on the car, and the overall scope of the build, options, etc. As you can imagine, a fully optioned and finished package close to us or in a viper-populated area owned by a driver who drives a LOT is more useful to us than a bare-bones package installed on a moderate example Gen-2 garage queen located in the middle of nowhere, haha.
