Harland Sharpe 1,7 RR's vs T&D

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

well -frog- had all of the above and didnt make jack with RR's.

CostanZo ? How would you feal if you ended up spending upwards of $2,000 (from the td rr's, pushrods, install) and ended up with no power gain?

I looked at frog's thread, and he installed HS rockers, not T&D's or Jesels. What he experienced with the HS rockers should not taken as an indictment against T&D's or Jesel's.

I admit I do not have a lot of experience with the HS's because I like a shaft mounted rocker more and recommend it. They're stiffer and deflect less.

 

[Dom426h]

What he experienced with the HS rockers should not taken as an indictment against T&D's or Jesel's.

Why not? I thought it was the increased lift form the 1.7ratio that they All have that created the power.

So, Two more Q's for you Greg:

How exactly would a 1.7 T&D/Jessel make any more power on -frog-'s stockish bolton motor over the HS?

Is there any real benefit to the T&D/Jessel besides being able to handle stiffer springs? I remember you saying something about internal oiling on one of them... please elaborate if this is a benefit.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

The Jesel and T&D rockers are a totally different design. They are *shaft mounted* and bolt to nice rigid steel bases. It doesn't do you much good (as Frog found out) to theoretically have more lift if you don't actually get it running down the track at 6000 rpms.

That's the difference. I talked to a gentleman at the HS booth at a race a few years ago and asked him if they intended to introduce a shaft mounted rocker arm for the Viper. He replied that the market wasn't large enough to justify it for them.

The Jesel and T&D rockers direct the oil that comes in via the pushrod directly to the trunnion bearing. The HS trunnion bearing relies on splash lubrication. I haven't seen any T&D/Jesel rockers fail any trunnion bearings on Vipers. I seen any HS''s do it either, *but* I don't have a lot of data on the HS's. I push guys to buy the more rigid stuff.

 

[Vipuronr]

Interesting point, Greg. So there are design benefits to going with the T&D/Jesel rr's. As far as lubrication, don't the stock rockers use splash lubrication, so are you saying because of the bearings being lubricated differently on the HS they are not lubricated as well, or is it they are lubricated just differently.

HS is what Roe sells and I assume that is what he uses in his cars. He has a good reputation and I don't feel he would sell a product that is inferior. Yes, it costs less, but that doesn't mean it won't perform well, just not quite as good as the T&D's/Jesel's...but, you are paying a lot more for these. For me, it all depends upon how much you are willing to spend on your motor.

Just my opinion.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

Please don't take the differences I've pointed out on HS rockers as a slam against anyone that sells them.

Sean is a stand up guy.

 

[Red Snake]

I'd get the T&Ds. I wouldn't skimp on parts for my Viper.

I think this point from the 1st page bears restating.

 

[costanZo]

I think this point from the 1st page bears restating.

Yup...that's what I'm getting! The Gunmetal Silver Shaft mount T&D Roller Rockers...is that what you have or do you have the Blue MOPAR T&D Roller Rockers? Or neither?

 

[Red Snake]

Yup...that's what I'm getting! The Gunmetal Silver Shaft mount T&D Roller Rockers...is that what you have or do you have the Blue MOPAR T&D Roller Rockers? Or neither?

Blue MOPARs, I believe (been a while since I looked at them).

 

[plumcrazy]

mopar/TD on mine.

 

[NI-KA]

Mopar T&D on mine.

 

[Jack B]

I good rule of thumb on the T&D's is....as long as the adjuster is not below the top of the jam nut, oil flow will not be hindered.

On the HS rockers, I don't believe they have internal oiling to the trunnion, so it's not as big an issue.

I would put stiffer pushrods in even if the cam and springs are stock. The pic of the damaged cam I posted above is from a bone stock '99 GTS (708). Stronger pushrods probably would have prevented it.

He still has to worry about the geometry. Way too many people put the rockers in without rectifying the pr length.

 

[Jack B]

Interesting point, Greg. So there are design benefits to going with the T&D/Jesel rr's. As far as lubrication, don't the stock rockers use splash lubrication, so are you saying because of the bearings being lubricated differently on the HS they are not lubricated as well, or is it they are lubricated just differently.

HS is what Roe sells and I assume that is what he uses in his cars. He has a good reputation and I don't feel he would sell a product that is inferior. Yes, it costs less, but that doesn't mean it won't perform well, just not quite as good as the T&D's/Jesel's...but, you are paying a lot more for these. For me, it all depends upon how much you are willing to spend on your motor.

Just my opinion.

If you watch clsely, your oil pressure will drop a bit with the T&D's. Secondly, I did not not need a catch can till I added them. A long right hand sweeper with slicks will throw a lot of oil into the intake with the T&D's. Just get rid of the PCV valve and add a catch can at the same time.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

He still has to worry about the geometry. Way too many people put the rockers in without rectifying the pr length.

On a stock engine the T&D rockers already sit too high without any shims. I've had heads come in with stock length valves and T&D's that were shimmed up to .090", and boy was the geometry a train wreck. At full lift the roller tip was almost coming off the intake manfold side of the valve tip, it swept that much.

When I port a set of Viper heads I install .100" longer valves. That usually puts the geometry about perfect with no shims and T&D's.

The few sets of HS rockers I've had throughhere had good geometry with stock length valves.

 

[ViperTony]

If you watch clsely, your oil pressure will drop a bit with the T&D's. Secondly, I did not not need a catch can till I added them. A long right hand sweeper with slicks will throw a lot of oil into the intake with the T&D's. Just get rid of the PCV valve and add a catch can at the same time.

Jack, as always, is right. I didn't need a catch can until I added them too. Do what Jack says, it works.

 

[Red Snake]

I have heard that every car is different regarding the need for a catch can. I have one and I hardly ever get ANYTHING in my catch can (I have T&Ds).

 

[Jack B]

I have heard that every car is different regarding the need for a catch can. I have one and I hardly ever get ANYTHING in my catch can (I have T&Ds).

It is one of three items:

1. You don't drive it hard enough . The hard long right hand hand turn is what fills the catch can. Put slicks on and make it a little down hill and your car can back fire.

2. you haven't pulled the intake.

3. The T&D's are adjusted so that the oil is restricted.

 

[Dan Cragin]

There are advantages to a better rocker arm and ratio change to all generation Vipers. I have tried all these brands and others on numerous engine combinations. For every year engine 1992-2010 there are options, but it is critical that you have the right combination of parts. Cam, lifter, pushrods and related parts.

I would be happy to go over the specifics just to help. Been there, done that. Feel free to call me.

 

[Vipuronr]

That's very nice of you Dan. Mine is simple, adding Harland Sharpe 1.7's to a stock '98 with the 708 cam which I'm not changing. As Greg showed, the rr's track the cam better.

 

[Red Snake]

It is one of three items:

1. You don't drive it hard enough . The hard long right hand hand turn is what fills the catch can. Put slicks on and make it a little down hill and your car can back fire.

2. you haven't pulled the intake.

3. The T&D's are adjusted so that the oil is restricted.

1. Probably true. I do not beat on my car.

2. Not so, my intake and supercharger were just off last month.

3. Not so, my T&Ds are adjusted properly and do not restrict the oil.