Has Cadillac fixed IRS wheel hop?

Tom F&L GoR

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In the March 2008 issue of Road&Track, the page 12 article about the Cadillac CTS-V says they use asymmetric rear half shafts to minimize wheel hop. It goes on to refer to other Corvette technology, but not clear if it means Corvettes also have asymmetric shafts

Anyone with heavy-duty shafts want to put one OEM shaft back in and see what happens? Maybe I'll buy the one HD shaft from you!

Any Corvette or Cadillac owners have any more info?
 

Performance Junkie

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I read about this too....they said they shared the technology with the Vette team. Different rates of flex equals it all out. Kinda simple...but coming up with the idea is another story. 550 horse and breaks 180 mph. Nice.
 

SingleMalt

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Double bump...

This is an interesting one. If no one else has tried it, I'm going to see if I can find one HD shaft and give it a try.
 

FE 065

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Wasn't most of the wheel hop elimination credited to the computer controlled shocks changing their damping when wheel hop was detected?
 

CarDude

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Well...I just somehow can't believe a word GM says about elimination of wheel hop. If it were true they would have fixed my 2005 CTS V by now since they have now replaced the rear diff three times in the last five months...and I am sure wheel hop is killing the rear.

GM *****...
 

2000_Black_RT10

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If GM is addressing torsional twist in the solid small diameter shaft, be aware that the Viper has larger diameter tube style halfshafts which do not twist.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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Wasn't most of the wheel hop elimination credited to the computer controlled shocks changing their damping when wheel hop was detected?

That would makes sense.

Many think front wheel drive cars result in torque steering due to unequal length halfshafts, and that the torque output is different at each wheel due to loss in torque due to axle / halfshaft twist. This is kind of a myth in most applications.. I worked at DCX, and designing drivelines in the past.. The reason there is front drive torque steering, is due to the different length halfshafts, but it's because of the different halfshaft angles, comparing left to right side.. There is a resultant force at the different angle applied to the king pin axis if you visualize a triangle for each side, the front view triangle being different for each side (one side wanting to rotate the tire more than the other). The easiast way to visualize this, is if you had a driveshaft spinning out of a transmission, is the shaft is inline with the transmission shaft there is no forces up & down or left & right. If you change the angle of the driveshaft relative to the transmission, a new resultant force is introduced creating a side / perpendicular load, the distance of the end of the driveshaft relative to the centerline of the transmission axis is the new moment to contend with. So if you have 2 driveshafts on either side of the car at differnt angles, there is a different moment fore / aft (only considering in the front view / rear view of the vehicle if the halfshaft angles are different, excluding the angle relative in the top view of the vehicle which is another resultant force to contend with). The CV joint is offset from the king pin axis, as well as the tire contact patch to the pavement. If there is a different force at each of the 2 points, there will be an unequal force trying to rotate the tire. So if one side of the car has a shaft at a different angle (if the halfshafts were straight across / horizontal, then less of an issue at launch / drive), then there is a different moment resultant force applied to the king pin axis trying to rotate / steer the tire. Only if both halfshafts are at the same angle, will the opposing left to right king pin moments cancel each other out, and hope to steer straight.. This is why you sometimes see an intermediate shaft on one side, so the front view angle of the halfshafts is equal on either side at the outer CV joints. In the top view of a car, if the rear halfshafts are at an angle, there will be another force wanting to lift the car on one side, and the other side will do the opposite due to the counter & opposing clockwise rotation of the halfshafts. Ideally on a IRS supsension, you want the halfshafts to be straight across like a staight axle (in both views, top view of the vehicle and front view) on a hard / torquey launch, for the car to squat to position the halfshafts horizontal with the diff to reduce resultant forces other than along the axis, breaking u-joints etc..

GM.. I predict is using different size diameter halfshafts is due to the different rotational force at each tire, optimizing the design for weight efficiency, since the engine crank wants to twist the chassis, in such that each side has a different load / traction, like the old super stock cars having more leaf springs on one side.. and it appears in the pics the plan view of the Corvette, the halfshafts are at an angle. I haven't looked into if they actually have torsional style halfshafts, something that would be new..

It's not that simple.. but enough babbling..
 
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Tom F&L GoR

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If the GM system controlled shocks during wheel hop - it made them stiffer? Then stiff shocks all the time would ride hard but not have wheel hop? From playing with the OEM Koni settings, my experience would say it wouldn't help a lot. But then again that is only within the Koni damping range.

In regards to the old super stock cars, I thought that was due to the solid axle and the pinion wanting to ride up the ring gear. It would therefore pull one side (the passenger rear wheel) up off the ground, though the visual would be pulling the driver's front corner up. Without re-reading my physics book, I thought IRS systems don't have this since it can't lift one rear wheel up.

Is the definition of a torsional halfshaft one that has a spring rate? (i.e the rod that my Charger has?) At the big oil company research lab we used to purchase driveshafts for diesel engines on a dyno stand that were tube-in-a-tube with a rubber liner holding them together, just like motor mounts. The rubber liner would absorb the sharp shocks from diesel combustion and allow the drivershaft to survive. You knew it was going bad when the rubber started to smell burnt. Maybe we need these for halfshafts?
 

2000_Black_RT10

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I'm just babbling Tom, but if the the IRS halfshafts are at an angle in the top view of the car, there is a resultant force up & down for each side to deal with. In other words, if the diff is more forward / rearward than the axles / spindles, and factors due to the diff clutch and deflections being unequal from side to side. That's a cool idea about the dual tube driveshafts, I think we chatted about this regarding my issues with the the dual mass flywheel I changed in my deisel truck, you may be on to something!

It's funny to see mountain bike dampers that are electronically controlled, it's such a dynamic situation for cars.. I miss the old days of a good 'ol slant six car (but not drum brakes) and minimal electronics.
 
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Jerome Sparich

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In regards to the old super stock cars, I thought that was due to the solid axle and the pinion wanting to ride up the ring gear. It would therefore pull one side (the passenger rear wheel) up off the ground, though the visual would be pulling the driver's front corner up.

Engine rotation is what causes the car to "lift" like it does side to side.

Back when I was building engines for my one buddies DIRT car, I was doing reverse rotation engines to counter this and help with cornering.
 
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Tom F&L GoR

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I'm just babbling Tom, but if the the IRS halfshafts are at an angle in the top view of the car, there is a resultant force up & down for each side to deal with. In other words, if the diff is more forward / rearward than the axles / spindles, and factors due to the diff clutch and deflections being unequal from side to side. That's a cool idea about the dual tube driveshafts, I think we chatted about this regarding my issues with the the dual mass flywheel I changed in my deisel truck, you may be on to something!

It's funny to see mountain bike dampers that are electronically controlled, it's such a dynamic situation for cars.. I miss the old days of a good 'ol slant six car (but not drum brakes) and minimal electronics.


So maybe moving the differential forward or backward to straighten out this angle would make difference? One could modify the bushings a little to do this...
 

FE 065

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Wasn't most of the wheel hop elimination credited to the computer controlled shocks changing their damping when wheel hop was detected?


This Road and Track.com Corvette test says in part:

A neat feature of MR (Magnetic Ride system) is the ability to improve standing-start launches. It does this by recognizing a hard launch and completely softening the rear shocks on compression with full stiff on rebound. Thus the car will squat and go, rather than bounce. And to minimize rear-wheel hop, the left-side halfshaft is larger in diameter than the right. Thus if an oscillation starts, it does so at different frequencies. Why the left side? Because it offsets the right rear-mounted battery.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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This Road and Track.com Corvette test says in part:

A neat feature of MR (Magnetic Ride system) is the ability to improve standing-start launches. It does this by recognizing a hard launch and completely softening the rear shocks on compression with full stiff on rebound. Thus the car will squat and go, rather than bounce. And to minimize rear-wheel hop, the left-side halfshaft is larger in diameter than the right. Thus if an oscillation starts, it does so at different frequencies. Why the left side? Because it offsets the right rear-mounted battery.

Interesting article, completely agree with the MR damper function and squatting. The oscillation and the battery comments is puzzling. Battery on the right and smaller halfshaft on the right, yet the battery is mounted to the chassis, it's not clear what frequency they are referring to. Many factors.. if the battery is on the right, the car will squat easier on the right, but then we have a driver that can weigh anywhere from 120lbs to 280lbs that is sitting practically in front of the left tire. Corvettes are one of the few cars you can sit in it, open the door and reach around and touch the rear tire. I suspect there is more to the story, and in many cases the manufacturer holds back info due to limiting proprietary designs being broadcasted. It's not identified what material the halfshafts are, they could be different for either side, in which the smaller diameter halfshaft may actually be stronger with a higher grade steel, needing less diameter. I haven't looked into it if the MR dampers are independently controlled, or is it simply a front and rear circuit? Anyone know here? On a rear straight axle car, say from the 60's it was common to put the battery in the trunk on the right, in my Hemi 68 Barracuda I had the reproduction truck battery on the right, it weighed around 100lbs, they did that intentionally, but that's a straight axle, different situation than the IRS. The counter rotation setup is very cool Jerome!

Thanks for the article link.. now you have me wasting anyone's time here babbling even more.. and thinking too much, my replies are too long and may be annoying.. it's cabin fever up here.. winter is almost over! :2tu:
 

chimazo

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In the previous model, wheelhop appears to be caused by the entire rear cradle using bushings that are too soft.
Here is a neat video of the CTS-V wheelhop from under the car:
YouTube - Undercar CTS-V drive and launches (wheel hop)

Not really related, but my C5 Z06 had different length halfshafts, though many owners still experience wheelhop. Hardened shafts were an easy upgrade allowing the use of sticky tires and a more aggressive clutch dump. Not a true "cure" - more like a workaround.
 

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