Header/O2 Sensor/No Heat Shield question

[Olddudesrule]

I'm in the middle of my header installation (Belangers), and I'm wondering if everyone just reuses their old O2 sensors? I never had any CEL codes related to the O2 sensors prior to the swap, and am really just wondering since they are most likely the originals (car is an 01 with 10K miles). Is there really any reason to put in new sensors (other than the fact that I got pissed and impatient in trying to pull it off the motor mount and broke the push in tab off).

Second, I read recent threads on using the heat shields with headers, and the concensus seemed to be "reuse them to avoid heat damage". Who has NOT reused the heat shields without burning/damaging other components? I really don't want to reuse those damn factory mounting studs along with the new mounting bolts, but I don't want to have excessive heat issues down the road.

Lastly, I'm running a full 3" system (headers, 3" turnouts, 3" R/T highflows, 3" Corsa's) and in addition to adding the headers, I'm replacing my old highflows with new ones. The slip fit between the turnout and the R/T's is tight, and there's really no way for it to pull out once it's installed. Is there any need to weld that connection as opposed to just using a band clamp. I'm cutting out the old set up as it's welded in (factory 2.5" turnout to a 2.5 to 3" coupler), but can't really see the need to weld the new on in place.

After pulling out the factory headers, I was actually surprised how good they actually look. They weren't all that heavy either. I think the Belangers are actually heavier. I'm hoping for a nice increase in flow and exhaust volume.

 

[plumcrazy]

you'll like the bellangers IMO.

you can reuse the o2 sensors, they are easy to replace later if one goes bad.

id reuse the heat shield for insurance. do you need it....i doubt it, but i did to be safe.

i ended up having DLM weld mine but its not needed. i originally used a truck style band clamp. it worked fine.

 

[DrumrBoy]

I don't use shields and have never had a problem with damaging components though many seem to suggest that melting the airbox on the passenger side is a frequent and expensive consequence of unshielded headers.

I check mine all the time and its fine. If you can make the shields fit and look OK, probably wise to keep 'em.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

I'm in the middle of my header installation (Belangers), and I'm wondering if everyone just reuses their old O2 sensors? I never had any CEL codes related to the O2 sensors prior to the swap, and am really just wondering since they are most likely the originals (car is an 01 with 10K miles). Is there really any reason to put in new sensors (other than the fact that I got pissed and impatient in trying to pull it off the motor mount and broke the push in tab off).

Second, I read recent threads on using the heat shields with headers, and the concensus seemed to be "reuse them to avoid heat damage". Who has NOT reused the heat shields without burning/damaging other components? I really don't want to reuse those damn factory mounting studs along with the new mounting bolts, but I don't want to have excessive heat issues down the road.

No heat shields / spark plug shields here since 7500 miles in 4/2001. 91K now....no heat damage of any sort anywhere. Roe blower for the last 36K miles. It all depends where you put the O2 sensors. OEM location (proper place)....you'll likely set light. 3rd tube (not proper, but many do)....likely no lights. Get DC Quickfires for OEM install.

Steve

 

[rpm9000]

I am running Belanger headers, mufflers and Roe 3" cats with no heat shields. No problems at all.

 

[KNG SNKE]

Been running no heat shields for about 1500 miles now with a Roe setup. Does get hot but no damage yet. The only difference I have noticed is a slight reduction in braking ability due to the brake lines running next to the headers drivers side. I have a BBK so I went up a lot in braking power and back down slightly in header heat. No biggie.
Still better than stock.

 

[Olddudesrule]

Yea, i just finished the install today (except for the turnouts and new r/t's) and while inspecting the engine bay for possible trouble spots, the brake lines running along that upper rail look pretty darn close. I plan on wrapping them, the O2 sensors, and the coolant return line on the passenger side just to be safe. I have StopTech's on all four corners, so I little brake degradation shouldn't hurt me too much. Good point though. I left the heat shields off, since trying to get them to fit was a B#*ch and was ugly at that. I may try Dave's heat shield design in the near future if I have issues. Had a long chat with Lou Belanger about the heat and O2 sensor issues, and he definitely doesn't think there should be any issues with the aluminized Jet-coated pipes.

Been running no heat shields for about 1500 miles now with a Roe setup. Does get hot but no damage yet. The only difference I have noticed is a slight reduction in braking ability due to the brake lines running next to the headers drivers side. I have a BBK so I went up a lot in braking power and back down slightly in header heat. No biggie.
Still better than stock.

 

[ViperGeorge]

I just changed all four O2 sensors as a precaution in my 06 because I had blown the engine. Out of four OEM brand new sensors, 2 failed within days. A third seems to be on its way out. I say if the originals are working leave them.

Insulate your brake lines. Boiled brake fluid can lead to brake failure not just reduced braking.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Insulate your brake lines. Boiled brake fluid can lead to brake failure not just reduced braking.

I guess it never hurts to keep getting 'safer,', but unless you're doing lots of road track work, it would seem not necessary to do. I have many track sessions since 2001 with zero braking issues. 3 sessions with the 5 pound blower. I do run Motul 600 all the time in this car

A stock GEN I/II Viper is more than capable of stopping the car very quickly with OEM brakes. It's repeated stops (racing) where the brakes become more of an issue. Upgrading brakes on a Viper which sees mostly street use serves little useful purpose IMO.

Lou Belanger is certainly going to promote his product being 'unharmful' to creating heat problems. I agree. I've had none and may have more Belanger header miles than anyone else. Lou knew of none with as many as mine when I talked to him a year or two ago.....but he also wasn't really up to speed at that time about the OEM / 3rd tube install for the he O2 sensor. He just knew that solved a big problem for them with the 00-02 cars. Prior to 2001, all Belanger headers came with the O2 **** welded in the OEM collector location.

Steve

 

[ViperTony]

Insulate your brake lines. Boiled brake fluid can lead to brake failure not just reduced braking.

I boiled my brake fluid and clutch fluid one day sitting in bumper-bumper traffic on a 90+ degree day for what seemed like an eternity. It was the only time I encountered a 'problem' with Belangers and no heat shields. I've also been on the track on days where it was easily 90+ and ran a dozen sessions in one day and never boiled anything. I guess it depends on temps, whether air is moving through the engine compartment or not, (exhaust leaks), etc. I did end up wrapping my brake likes with a high-temp sleeve as well as wrapping the coolant return hose on the pass side. I also insulated the air intake box over the heater core as a precaution. I've put on just over 10,000 miles on my Belanger headers and no shields and no issues.

The only problem I encountered with Belanger headers is warping of the flanges which Lou fixed for me a few years ago. If not installed/torqued properly one will experience leaks at the flanges and that will contribute to the heat issue among other issues. Follow Lou's advice on shields, installation, etc. and you'll be fine but even Lou will tell you that playing it safe with shields doesn't hurt.

 

[GTS Bruce]

On my car I shielded everything facing the headers with multiple layers of reflective tape and shielding that is sticky one side,fg mat inside and aluminum outside. Not the best looking solution but it works. After a drive the air box was too hot to touch inside etc. Now everything shileded and have boots over the plugs. GTS Bruce

 

[Jack B]

I boiled my brake fluid and clutch fluid one day sitting in bumper-bumper traffic on a 90+ degree day for what seemed like an eternity. It was the only time I encountered a 'problem' with Belangers and no heat shields. I've also been on the track on days where it was easily 90+ and ran a dozen sessions in one day and never boiled anything. I guess it depends on temps, whether air is moving through the engine compartment or not, (exhaust leaks), etc. I did end up wrapping my brake likes with a high-temp sleeve as well as wrapping the coolant return hose on the pass side. I also insulated the air intake box over the heater core as a precaution. I've put on just over 10,000 miles on my Belanger headers and no shields and no issues.

The only problem I encountered with Belanger headers is warping of the flanges which Lou fixed for me a few years ago. If not installed/torqued properly one will experience leaks at the flanges and that will contribute to the heat issue among other issues. Follow Lou's advice on shields, installation, etc. and you'll be fine but even Lou will tell you that playing it safe with shields doesn't hurt.

At one time the Balanger install instructions actually indicated that using the heat shields was harmful to their headers.

 

[Olddudesrule]

Thanks everyone for the info. I really appreciate the "real world" experiences you've all had. After my first test drive last night (only about 8 miles), I noticed what I would call a great deal of heat, especially on the passenger side where the space between the blower box and the headers is tightest. I'm not sure if long term exposure to that type of heat will cause failure, but it would most definitely cause accellerated wear and tear.

We'll see I guess. On a side note, the sound is awesome. Not too much louder, but a nice, deeper tone than with just the R/T's and Corsas alone.

 

[ViperTony]

At one time the Balanger install instructions actually indicated that using the heat shields was harmful to their headers.

I get different answers each time I speak with Lou so I stopped calling.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Can't speak to using wrap or heat shields on the headers but put DEI wrap or reflective heat shields around brake lines or other components exposed to high heat is cheap insurance and certainly won't hurt the headers.

 

[Olddudesrule]

I get different answers each time I speak with Lou so I stopped calling.

What I actually heard was not that using the heat shields with his headers was bad/wrong, but that if you let the heat shield touch the headers (which you wouldn't purposely do), it would eventually damage the coating. Understandable.

 

[Olddudesrule]

Can't speak to using wrap or heat shields on the headers but put DEI wrap or reflective heat shields around brake lines or other components exposed to high heat is cheap insurance and certainly won't hurt the headers.

I did install the DEI wrap on the exposed brake lines, P/S lines and coolant return lines, but that is only gonna work so well. It may reflect a good deal of the heat generated, but the heat sink effect will still work it's magic on the rubber and fluids.

 

[plumcrazy]

How much does the header coating actually do ? Is it that important ? I'm thinking.....not so much other than looks if you don't have the shields on

 

[KNG SNKE]

A stock GEN I/II Viper is more than capable of stopping the car very quickly with OEM brakes. It's repeated stops (racing) where the brakes become more of an issue. Upgrading brakes on a Viper which sees mostly street use serves little useful purpose IMO.

Steve

I couldn't disagree more. Yes the Viper will stop just find on OEM brakes if you stomp them. That is not the issue. Driving the Viper through stop and go traffic makes the OEM brakes a pain. It is hard going from an Audi TT which is less then half the HP and more than twice the braking ability to a car that stomps like a Rhino. Hands down the Daves BBK has been the best mod for my Viper! The Roe blower is fun, but not having to use a ton of leg pressure to stop from 5mph is much better.

 

[RTTTTed]

I have TNT headers, no cats and no heat shields - no porblems.

I had no problems with the brakes. I'm quite certain that an Audi TT can't stop anywhere near a Viper even if it has stock brakes. During track experience at PIR I had an audi TT and a Prosche get in my way every couple of corners and the straights. Can't see where they could be considered any better than the Evo they were having trouble keeping up with. They have skinny tires on front right? King Snake if yours doesn't do tons better at everything I'd fix the problem. At the track there was nothing close to my GTS. Physically the front tires tread compound and actual size make the largest difference in braking if the rest of the car is similar. TT's are heavier?

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

I couldn't disagree more. Yes the Viper will stop just find on OEM brakes if you stomp them. That is not the issue. Driving the Viper through stop and go traffic makes the OEM brakes a pain. It is hard going from an Audi TT which is less then half the HP and more than twice the braking ability to a car that stomps like a Rhino. Hands down the Daves BBK has been the best mod for my Viper! The Roe blower is fun, but not having to use a ton of leg pressure to stop from 5mph is much better.

From day 1...3/31/00....I never thought my Viper brakes had to be stomped in everyday traffic to work properly. In fact, for that sort of driving, they worked as well as anything I had previously driven...or drive today for that matter (Passat 3.6 4-Motion)


If you are referring to SOTP (foot) feel, I guess we'll agree to
disagree about this subjective component.(unless you can find some data on it). However; I don't think you can
find any objective data supporting what you say about an Audi TTs braking ability vs an old Viper. A quick look shows
similar 60-0 stopping times in a car that weighs about 600 pounds less than the Viper. I do know that different bake pads make
a difference for pedal feel/pressure. I have used three different types over the years. Stock / EBC greens / Brakeman 3s. All have
different stopping characteristics.

I did upgrade to Tom's 40mm rear brakes, at a very modest cost, and took out my prop valve in 2004. I get on a track occasionally or wouldn't have done that either. I would guess your stopping power not much different from mine unless under extreme continual road track conditions.

The original GEN I Viper was a purpose built car capable of stopping the car better than most on the road at the time. No stomping required. Without ABS, the RF tends to lock up first on a stock GEN I/II Viper. Unless you corner balanced your car, I would assume the same would happen with your modified brake system under very heavy braking.


Steve

 

[RTTTTed]

If you have to push hard to use your brakes I suggest that you fix your vacuum leak. I you would just prefer to have very light activation for braking then that would be a requirement for a luxury car designed for people with no leg muscles or problems walking - not a sports car. Like the power steering the amount of pressure was exactly as designed for a street/race car. Re arranging the linkage for lesser pedal pressure might be consider dangerous.

The Vipers were designed with the biggest and best braking technologies, tires and weight distribution. They did outperform Ferraris Porsches and the other GREATS. The Gen 3 remained unchanged to the Gen 4 (except for lighweight rotors on ACR) because the slightly better Ceramic rotors are about $5,000 each. That would be a $20,000 added cost for a non-noticable improvement.

Althought the Gen 2s are excellent and one of the best braking cars in the world - I did upgrade to larger (14") front brakes.

Although the ABS takes away some of my braking it should ourstop my non-ABS 13" ACR ... I hope.

Braking forces are measured with G forces. OLD Vipers stop at .8-.9Gs and with Tom's rear upgrade the stopping forces become 1.0Gs. The Gen 3 Viper I read was tested at 1.01Gs. One of the best in the world.

Ted

 

[KNG SNKE]

First off, no vacuum leak. The hard push to stop those final mphs at a stop sign was there on both of my Gen 2's.

Second your comparing a tracked Viper and Audi to a street driven one. For daily driving approaching a light or stop sign just a tap on the brakes and the Audi was stopping super easy. The Viper required a significant push (on both Vipers) to stop at the stop sign / red light. These are non track related issues.
I upgraded to Dave's BBK and EBC reds and now it has the light touch at stop signs that I wanted.

As far as this comment there are many sports cars that stop in the manner I am describing, including the new Vipers. Now why would Dodge go and do a thing like that and improve the "All so great" braking? Because its better!

"I you would just prefer to have very light activation for braking then that would be a requirement for a luxury car designed for people with no leg muscles or problems walking - not a sports car."