How valuable are you to DC? Getting shafted I says. VALVE ISSUE.

Craig 201 MPH

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http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=44511

I have cut/paste the story below you have to register at automotive news (need an email address and that's it) if you care to read it off their site.


I couldn't help but think of the unfortunate SRT owners that are going through the hell of having a new 80K car that needs to be torn apart and fixed. That would tick me off enough to begin with but I would be furious to read that E class mercedes owners were being given NEW cars (not fixed, not retrofitted natta), brand-freaking new cars because MERCEDES couldn't deliver as promised on a NAVIGATION system, seems like a pretty comparible situation to me. There will be 2,000 cars REPLACED with new 2004 models whose prices range from $47-56K. Yes they are less costly than a Viper but when you consider the TOTAL costs, it's easy to see whose getting the "neon" treatment and whose getting the red carpet.

I won't type any more right now because I'm sure there will be plenty to say later... that's if this thread doesn't get deleted, not to worry, it will be duplicated at the alley should that happen.

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M-B replaces 2,000 E class cars
Automaker promised navigation system but couldn't deliver


By Diana T. Kurylko
Automotive News / July 21, 2003




The 2004 Mercedes-Benz E500


NEW YORK -- Mercedes-Benz is giving new cars to nearly 2,000 E class owners in the United States because it can't retrofit a navigation system the buyers paid for when they bought their cars.

Another 1,000 customers who expressed an interest in the navigation system but didn't prepay will be given coupons good for $3,250 toward the purchase of their next Mercedes-Benz.

Because of a supplier problem, the navigation system wasn't available when the redesigned E class was launched last September. The DVD-based navigation system is part of an optional system called Comand that also includes phone and stereo features. It costs $2,125.

The 2,000 buyers who paid $1,625 for Comand when the E class arrived in the United States were told that the navigation system - the only component that had problems - would be installed by dealers when it was ready, says Donna Boland, spokeswoman for Mercedes-Benz USA LLC.

Dealers took the names of an additional 1,000 E class buyers who said they'd be interested in a retrofitted navigation system.

But about six weeks ago, Boland says, "We decided the retrofit would be very complex and time consuming, and it wasn't going to meet customer expectations. We decided to make it available only in production cars."

Rather than offer refunds, Boland says, Mercedes decided "we would go out of our way this time" and replace the affected cars with new ones. It's one of the few times we couldn't deliver as promised."

The delay occurred when Mercedes-Benz switched suppliers of the Comand system from Robert Bosch GmbH to Harman/Becker Automotive Systems GmbH in Karlsbad, Germany. It was not clear last week whether Mercedes is offering to take back E classes in other markets.

The new E class, which is priced, including freight, at $47,670 for the V-6 E320 and $56,570 for the V-8 E500, has affected Mercedes-Benz's standing in quality surveys.

The brand fell from 128 (tying with Chevrolet) in the J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Initial Quality Study to a ranking of 132 in the 2003 study - just one point above the average score of 133.

Mercedes says much of that decline was because of complaints about the complexity of the E class stereo/radio system and excessive wind noise.

California dealer Stephen Smythe, president of Beverly Hills Ltd., is happy with Mercedes' decision to replace customer cars.

"We have more than 30 replacement cars coming for customers who prepaid for the system," he says. "It is a wonderful thing that Mercedes-Benz is doing. I have never seen any car company do anything this big."

Smythe says the move might help quell what he called "negative press" over the reported drops in Mercedes-Benz scores on quality studies.

He says dealers would get a $500 processing fee for the replacement E-class cars. He expects most of the returned cars will end up being sold as used vehicles. c

Automobilwoche, the German-language sister publication of Automotive News, contributed to this report
 

RedSnakeGTS

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well dodge vs. mercedes??? customer service from a Mercedes dealership is 100000000000 times better than any 5 star dodge dealership! i mean, my weather stripping isnt covered in my warranty for my viper, but when i had my clk55, they fixed my leaky stripping when i dropped my car off for an oil change, and i didnt even ask them to! mercedes rules, dodge *****, they just make a badass sports car!
 

SylvanSRT

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are we sure these car cos. are owned and managed by the same people? that is exceptional customer care? if all car cos. did that they would have me as a lifetime customer!
 
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Craig 201 MPH

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I'd say they're the same

Mercedes and Chrysler are both DC, I fail to see the difference. This would have had to have gone all the way to the top, no outside marketing firm or $300 slap to the face for mid-level benz owners.
 

Milksnake

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Any suggestions on how to deal with this issue. Again, do we start a class action law suit or do we just sit and get angrier and angrier!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Craig 201 MPH

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Seems like a precedent to me. Reading this today really pi$$ed me off, that on top of our 2 SRT orders being cancelled and reallocated (we assume) and not being told about it. Just outright pathetic treatment of their best and loyal customers.
 

knuk

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Well DC?? We know you are reading this but are you listening? Hell, I only asked for a new motor in my SRT and that was denied - but now you give Mercedes owners new friking cars? This is a huge pile of dung...maybe it's time to shop elsewhere.
 

CaboViper

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If the article is accurate, then yes indeed SRT owners are getting the shaft! Our engines were not delivered as promised, they should be completely replaced or a new car should be delivered. My air conditioning also did not work at all due to a leak. When I had my oil changed at 500 miles my trusted mechanic told me my belt was frayed and should be replaced in the future. The car is awesome in many respects and I enjoy the driving experience, but all these problems and DC's response has taken away some of the joy.

DC has not responded to our suggestions and basically, as far as I can see, really are not to concerned how we feel as owners. They probably figure we will shut up soon and go away. And now this article. I for one will not forget the poor treatment we have received.
 

Viperfreak2

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It's the same people making the decisions for both Mercedes and Dodge. The difference is that the Viper is seen as a stand alone from the Chrysler 'brand' and the E-class is the bread and butter of the three pointed star 'brand'. JD powers (I think) considers that Viper production is too low to be statistically significant. The affected numbers are also drastically different 200 vs. 2000. My opinion (counts for squat) is that the dollar difference is minimal! BECAUSE, the E-class is so popular right now, the dealers will be able to sell the used cars (low miles) to hungry customers and come out smelling like a rose. Think about it, they deliver more new cars (new car sales figures go up) and sell perfect used cars (certified pre owned sales go way up) It's a win-win situation. Hmmmmm people were hungry for the SRT when the valve flap happened.......
 

CMG

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You will not get a reply from Dodge. They will simply ignore you. The only course of action you have is to avoid buying DCX cars and trucks in the future.
 

jcaspar1

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You need better customer care with a mercedes considering their cars are now less reliable than Dodge or Chryslers :) . I have always had excellent service at my local Dodge dealer. Replaced weatherstripping on both doors when I brought it in for the drivers side. Fixed extrememly tiny oil leak when brought in for timing cover coolant leak. Never a scratch.

If reliability is extremely important, don't get a Dodge (and definately not a Mercedes), get a Lincoln, Cadillac or Lexus. I think Saturn usually rates as highest customer service
 

Milksnake

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However, no one has addressed the fact that we are being ignored. Of course, some dealers/mechanics are nice and customer friendly and of course, some of us will not be buying another D/C product, but what do we do as a group? It seems to me that as a group - all we do is whine and moan - talk and no action. I guess it will be up the individual owner to fight their own battle - so much for the "Viper nation!" A nation of sheep!!!!! BAA BAA BAA - BLAH, BLAH. BLAH!
 

Mike Brunton

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I'll play devils advocate here.

If I was a businessman at DC, I would be looking at this simply as a numbers game. Don't kid yourself - any "special treatment" to Viper folks is due to marketing maneuvers by DC. They make less on Vipers than they do on RAM trucks (as a product line), so you're right in many ways that they don't care too much about you and your Viper you bought.

As a business decision, they have 2,000 Benz's that they may have to, say, spend $4k per car to retrofit navigation. It was obviously cheaper for them to give out new cars. A $50k CLK may cost $30k in parts, and they can resell the old cars and probably break even.

On the other hand, you have under 200 SRT's with valves affected. They CAN be fixed for a reasonable sum, and replacing the cars is not viable - where do they get 200 "extra" SRT's from? What 200 owners get deprived of their '03? What will these affected 03's be worth? I'd bet DC would be losing a LOT of money if they did this swap for 04's.

According to the letter of the law, DC is not obligated to replace the vehicle. They are doing everything they are required to do. As much as I feel for the affected owners, I also know that you can NEVER make everyone happy. Replace ONE car or ONE motor, and EVERYONE will be up in arms. The very fact that everyone is screaming lawsuit and class action and such and such, is the exact reason why they only do what they are required to do. When people take an adversarial position, you create an adversary.

Just my .02
 

GR8_ASP

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Mike - I always appreciate your level headed perspective. Of course what you say is correct. In any business decisions are based on the business case at hand. In this case I am not impartial, having the valve issue myself and having all the emotions that are associated with it. Unfortunately many of those emotions will last a lifetime.

The repair itself was handled very well by my chosen dealer. It was all the other effects surrounding it that made it a difficult scenario. The ICG letter that really made me feel like I had a $500 used car as it was so impersonal. The requested sign-off of all rights form letter (which I like many others did not sign or return) which I would not sign if it was a Neon, let alone a $83,000 Viper. So I guess from my standpoint it was the formal communications that I was most disturbed with.

I do not believe we have a case unless there is an identifiable loss such as reduced resale value. If the affected owners somehow could document that aspect then I believe they would have a case of diminished value. I have no idea how that could be done. That is the only perspective that I can think of that legal action would stand a chance.
 

Mike Brunton

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I would have had one of the affected cars if I had taken my '03. I *think* I can see where the owners of the maladied cars are coming from, although I'm sure it's easy for me to preach when I don't own one.

What probably would be fair would be for DC to offer some sort of incentive towards a future purchase - something more than the $300. The problem is some folks just don't like "big corporations" and want to take advantage. If DC offered a voucher for $5k off ANY DC vehicle, good for 5 years or something (a single voucher, expiring in 5 years I mean), then some would scream that DC was ADMITTING fault and use that to lobby for a new car.

So DC is sort of in a really crappy situation. The biggest problem is that unless DC can get everyone to agree to a solution, then they really can't offer any solution beyond what they already have. The only way everyone can "agree" to a solution would be with a lawyer in a class action, IMO. That's really too bad, because if things weren't the way they are (some screaming for new cars), then I'm sure DC would be amenable to coming up with a more favorable solution.
 

knuk

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Well Mike, I was the one who put the money out for a new SRT so I fail to see why DC is the one (in your opinion) in the "crappy" situation. They have only made us one offer and to many of us it is not what we wanted. Many of us just want our cars repaired by a QUALIFIED Viper tech and not by some Joe blow tech who has NEVER done a valve job on a Viper. I think we have the right to be ticked off since we have been ripped off. It's easy for someone like you, who is NOT affected, to add your 2 cents worth. Almost sounds like you are trying for brownie points with DC for some reason :smirk:
 

CaboViper

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Gentleman, it's called integity. DC should back up there product, period! I know all about the bottom line being a business owner myself but if my people make a mistake that affects a client I do everything I can to satisfy that individual even if it costs me time and money. Customer satisfaction is extremely important in any consumer related business and in the long run if you burn enough customers you will be out of business or the very least the bottom line will be affected. Just an opinion.
 

Viperfreak2

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Some people don't think about the long run. They think about money, today. Carpe squeezum. Sieze the fool. I swore back in '99 to never buy another DC product, now I'm on my 3rd Viper in as many years. Make a good product and people tend to forgive. The 1300 unaffected valvers seem happy. What I'd like to see is what the E-class guys said or did to get DC to make such a deal to replace the cars. Anyone been following it?
 

kverges

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Did anyone here READ the article?

The Nav systems COULD NOT BE RETROFITTED, which was the original plan that M-B announced. Had the Nav systems been compatible with the existing cars, M-B's dealers were going to install the Nav sytems. Also, these folks had NO Nav system on delivery; we did have a running, driving car with valves that make enough power that I doubt you could feel any difference.

New valves CAN BE RETROFITTED in SRT10s.

I have the valve problem and while not happy, I cannot justify replacing the car instead of the valves.

Get a grip!
 

knuk

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I don't think the majority of those of us with the SRT's in question expect a new car - we never did! But I asked for a new motor and was basically laughed at by DC. Why should I have to have my brand new engine opened up for repairs? The resale price of the "valve job" SRT's is going to be lower that those that were not affected but DC has not addressed that AT ALL.
 

GR8_ASP

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... we did have a running, driving car with valves that make enough power that I doubt you could feel any difference.

Not to argue but I noticed something wrong on the day I picked up the car. When it was finally discovered and communicated I took mine to the dyno and verified it. But it was noticeable and not what I paid for.

For what its worth my biggest concern is resale. When I was notified about the valve issue my first response was to sell the car and avoid all the emotional activities surrounding this issue. But, each potential sale contact asked specifically if my car was affected by the valve issue, thereby eliminating any chance of selling at the current market value of non-affected cars. Will that still be true next year or in 5 years. I do not know. But I do know that right now I am the only one responsible for that potential reduction in value. And I had no part in the fault. The cause of the loss is shared by DC and Eaton (valve supplier). They should provide just remedies. A $300 Mopar certificate does not cover my direct costs related to this (2 dyno tests, over 150 miles, and 1 day off to follow the car through).
 

Milksnake

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Again, is there a way that the 200 of us affected owners can get together and make a stand against D/C. Apparently, those that are not effected or do not have an SRT do NOT CARE!!!! I personally, will be writing to the auto mags. Not that it will do any good, but at least I will be proactivie instead of passive.
 

kverges

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I am not a chest-beating DC supporter, BTW;

Along those lines a close friend with an "unaffected" SRT had a dyno run that I personally conducted making about 420 rwhp and 440 ft-lbs torque; it remains to be seen what or if DC will do anything about that.

The resale problem concerns me but is inexplicable. I just don't see how it can affect the value of a car that has a 7 year extended warranty anyway. Any problems caused by R&R of the heads will crop up well before then.

You folks whining about this are making your own bed, to some extent. Where do you think prospective purchasers go to look for info on the cars? Same thing happened on the Gen I cars that everyone thinks have universal head gasket problems. I had a '93 for 8 years and many, many track miles with no problems, but the vocal minority with problems created a stigma that reduced the value of that car.
 

knuk

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I don't think we are whining about it, we just want a fair deal. Obviously you are the type that bends over for DC, that's your choice. The rest of us know that we have been ripped off and no matter what we say to DC it falls on deaf ears - time to shop elsewhere.
 

Viperzilla

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The question you next have to ask yourself (if you're one of the owners affected by the valves), is would you be willing to wait for the '04s? Most of the '03s were allotted and kept, some were sold by the cert holder, then the dealer sold them. I don't know how many '03 SRTs were left over at the end of the line, but I'm not sure if that would have covered being given out to the 200 or so affected owners. You have to take into consideration that the valves were easy "drop ins", the nav system wouldn't go into the M-Bs. Sure Dodge could have done what M-B did. They would have probably found buyers for the SRTs that were replaced. but why should Dodge HAVE to do that? That would waste a lot of money, and Viper owners would have been effected. Maybe a cheaper VOI, or a postponement.

If Dodge chose to replace the SRTs with all new cars, that would have screwed up '04 SRT holders. They would have grumbled. No one's going to be happy in this situation. It's unfortunate. BTW, You might of had to switch colors, then some may have pissed and moaned at that.

I can understand owners asking for a new engine, I understand the logic. If it's reasonable for everyone? I can't say.

I didn't want to go into this topic, as I'm not an SRT owner, or a Viper owner at all. I just don't understand why people are jumping at each others throats because someone tries to give an honest, reasonable explanation. Nor do I understand how two completely different incidents with resulting, and possibly correct, action to correct is making some become "anti-manufacturer-specific". I'm not a Dodge loyalist, I'm more Ford loyal, but I'll never bend backwards or forwards for any company or person.
 

DEVILDOG

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FYI, the Chrysler Division of DC lost $1.1 BILLION on an operating basis for the 2nd quarter '03 reported today. What goes around comes around.
 

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