i got a ticket to pinks all out in chicago...i need to make my 98gts faster

[darkostoj]

well i got a ticket to race at the pinks all out event in chicago towards the end of june. My car right now runs a 12.00 @ 123, its got a corsa 3", high flow cats, smooth tubes/filter, poly mounts, and a b&m shifter...other then that all stock.

I'd like to get the car to dip into the 10's to represent the vipers...and it seems like i need to be that fast to atleast have a chance at competing for the 10k if i get lucky.

I've been planning on doing twin turbo's for sometime, but have held off on it for a while since of how expensive they get to do them properly, so you guys got any other ideas?

Pretty much i believe my options from what I see are running a Paxton, roe, or spray.

I'd also like to run some different tires on it to hook better since i got the stock tires and a 1.92 60' is killing me.

Whatever I end up putting on the car will be pulled off in the next year or two for upgrading to twin turbo's, so I'd like to find out what the cheapest/easiest way to get my car into the 10's is without losing my ass when i take them off the car.

right now i'm leaning towards running a 150 shot off a nitrous dave throttle body plate kit. Seems like I can do that for 1500 or less....I just hate spray

anyone got a used paxton/roe out there anywhere??

 

[white out]

There's a thread with a roe for sale, it was put up on monday, so it should be a few topics down. It's a really good price.

Otherwise, start dropping some weight.

Nick

 

[Russ M]

Well the twin turbo kit you decided to pass on made 840rwhp and 930lb torque @ 11 psi of boost. Too bad you you could have had a fast twin turbo car.

 

[darkostoj]

Well the twin turbo kit you decided to pass on made 840rwhp and 930lb torque @ 11 psi of boost. Too bad you you could have had a fast twin turbo car.

well that's fine with me, it looked pretty ****ty and I didn't want to take any chances. Good numbers.

 

[vpower01]

I would just go spray with nano...you can find it here Nano: Nitrous on Steroids! and a good a/f gauge that has safety cutouts for rich/lean a/f mixture .
Dont get a bottle heater i screwed up and did that, just get the nano system. I put a plate on mine but you could just do a NX fogger 200 shot. Nitrous Express » Next Generation Nitrous Oxide Systems

Thats about the cheapest way out for you.
Your car is a 98 so it should have forged pistons.
You can pull it off and sell it later.
+ slicks

 

[ViperGeorge]

Better upgrade your half shafts as well. That much power and you'll twist the stock ones into pretzels. Probably need a better clutch as well.

 

[Jack B]

Nitrous with a bottle heater and pressure cutoff (not thermostat) is simple and virtually foolproof. A 200 shot is also simple enough to set up in a short time. As was suggested, you must get an a/f set up. That is a must for the nitrous or your future twin turbo.

A gauge does a decent job for closed loop indication, but, you cannot use a gauge for wot data. You have to log and the Innovate DL32 set up is hard to beat. You also will have a difficult time setting up a shut down scheme with an a/f gauge. The a/f data stream is not a continuous number such as 13:1, it is a whole series of various different readings that are averaged, therefore difficult to use as shut down or safety circuit. You are better off using a fuel pressure circuit to shut down the system.

As you go to higher hp systems they get more difficult, but, 200 or less relatively easy. June is not far off, you better install the a/f system asap, that is step 1. Sraying before the throttle bodies has a whole bunch of side benefits. The throttle body sprayers look neat, but, there are drawbacks. Keep it simple spray in the intake tubes.

Find someone in your area that is familiar with nitrous systems, it does not need to be a viper specialist. The systems do not vary that much from car-to-car. If you tune for 11:1 a/f ratio and use a fuel pressure shutoff, you will be safe. 10's should be easy for under $2,000 in material.

 

[plumcrazy]

what jack said.

nitrous is the cheapest and easiest way to do it. and its not nearly as scary as people think if done right.

 

[1TONY1]

I love the Roe s/c and it should put you exactly where you need to be.

 

[plumcrazy]

Lmao...exactly

 

[darkostoj]

Nitrous with a bottle heater and pressure cutoff (not thermostat) is simple and virtually foolproof. A 200 shot is also simple enough to set up in a short time. As was suggested, you must get an a/f set up. That is a must for the nitrous or your future twin turbo.

A gauge does a decent job for closed loop indication, but, you cannot use a gauge for wot data. You have to log and the Innovate DL32 set up is hard to beat. You also will have a difficult time setting up a shut down scheme with an a/f gauge. The a/f data stream is not a continuous number such as 13:1, it is a whole series of various different readings that are averaged, therefore difficult to use as shut down or safety circuit. You are better off using a fuel pressure circuit to shut down the system.

As you go to higher hp systems they get more difficult, but, 200 or less relatively easy. June is not far off, you better install the a/f system asap, that is step 1. Sraying before the throttle bodies has a whole bunch of side benefits. The throttle body sprayers look neat, but, there are drawbacks. Keep it simple spray in the intake tubes.

Find someone in your area that is familiar with nitrous systems, it does not need to be a viper specialist. The systems do not vary that much from car-to-car. If you tune for 11:1 a/f ratio and use a fuel pressure shutoff, you will be safe. 10's should be easy for under $2,000 in material.

I wanted to do the AEM since it comes with a nice a/f guage that reads both banks, but i've heard of them being temperamental (IE, cutting out at random times)...i ended up selling the one I had. I got a supercharged 67 camaro with the innovate lc1/xd16 combo and I was able to log on my laptop with that...honestly couldnt have been happier with that combo, it worked great.

I was always under the assumption that the throttle body plate sprayers were the way to go? Just curious what the drawbacks are to them compared to spraying in the intake tubes?

What about bottles? Is bottle configuration going to make a big difference? I see most people running 2 - 10lb bottles.

What should I use to tune? What other electronics will I need. I would like to run a 200 shot.

as far as hooking up @ the strip I was going to try and find a set of 16" ccw drag packs somewhere used...i really like those wheels.

 

[Jack B]

I wanted to do the AEM since it comes with a nice a/f guage that reads both banks, but i've heard of them being temperamental (IE, cutting out at random times)...i ended up selling the one I had. I got a supercharged 67 camaro with the innovate lc1/xd16 combo and I was able to log on my laptop with that...honestly couldnt have been happier with that combo, it worked great.

I was always under the assumption that the throttle body plate sprayers were the way to go? Just curious what the drawbacks are to them compared to spraying in the intake tubes?

What about bottles? Is bottle configuration going to make a big difference? I see most people running 2 - 10lb bottles.

What should I use to tune? What other electronics will I need. I would like to run a 200 shot.

as far as hooking up @ the strip I was going to try and find a set of 16" ccw drag packs somewhere used...i really like those wheels.

The further outside the throttle bodies you stay the better mixing you get. In addition, any nitrous backfires will do less damage outside of the throttle bodies. That does not make the plates totally wrong, I just do not see the advantage and mixing is a real issue. The first couple of cylinders with the plates have to run much leaner than the rear cylinders where mixing is more complete.

All you need for tuning is the O2 set-up and the additional ability to log rpm and throttle position. Just start out 20% richer then where you want to end up at, as indicated a max of 11:1 gives you a safety margin and the trade off is not major. You will also find out that you do not need to retard the stock timing when running at or near 11:1. Just run a couple of ranges colder with the plugs. The oem plugs are great for NA, but, not nitrous.

Just an opinion, simple is best and one 15lb bottle is less to worry about. It is extremely hard to get rid of all leaks, the two bottles just complicate the issue. Plus, a full day of racing could force you to change bottles, that means the need for four bottles. That pressurized nitrogen sure seems nice, but, my progressive system already adjusts for reduced bottle pressure.

 

[darkostoj]

The further outside the throttle bodies you stay the better mixing you get. In addition, any nitrous backfires will do less damage outside of the throttle bodies. That does not make the plates totally wrong, I just do not see the advantage and mixing is a real issue. The first couple of cylinders with the plates have to run much leaner than the rear cylinders where mixing is more complete.

All you need for tuning is the O2 set-up and the additional ability to log rpm and throttle position. Just start out 20% richer then where you want to end up at, as indicated a max of 11:1 gives you a safety margin and the trade off is not major. You will also find out that you do not need to retard the stock timing when running at or near 11:1. Just run a couple of ranges colder with the plugs. The oem plugs are great for NA, but, not nitrous.

Just an opinion, simple is best and one 15lb bottle is less to worry about. It is extremely hard to get rid of all leaks, the two bottles just complicate the issue. Plus, a full day of racing could force you to change bottles, that means the need for four bottles. That pressurized nitrogen sure seems nice, but, my progressive system already adjusts for reduced bottle pressure.

so whats the best way to tune the engine as far as a tuning product goes? vec3, split sec, sct, etc?

 

[99 R/T 10]

Vec 2/3 would be the cheapest route(selling one for $650). Or go with the SCT, both Jack B and Daniel Lesser are well schooled how to use the SCT. Get help to tune it right in either case

 

[plumcrazy]

the vec2/3 also works well as a WOT, rpm window switch with nitrous. thats how i did it and it made it very easy and safe to spray.

 

[jay01m]

Definitely Nitrous with the nitrogen push setup. Nitrogen push is safer than a bottle heater and you can be precise with desired pressure. Bottle heaters can become a fire hazard, and if you live in a hot climate, be careful or you risk blowing the safety valve.

Now if you REALLY want to be safe with the nitrous, get a direct port injection system. It's expensive, but then you know each cylinder is getting the exact amount the jets provide; no more, no less. That can also be safer because if you're running a wet kit you don't have to worry about residual gas/nitrous in the intake that could grenade your intake on a backfire.

Forget an AFR gauge, the car goes open circuit at WOT, so reading it is pretty much useless, plus even if you're able to read the gauge while flying down the track, a lean AFR will happen so fast that it's highly unlikely you're going to lift off the throttle in time to save your motor. You're better off getting a good calibration done where you have a good AFR mix at WOT and let the safety mechanisms work for you (fuel pressure cutoff, timing retard).

As others have said, to dip into the 10s you'll need some drag radials or slicks. I have no idea how strong the driveline is, but I'd wager to say the clutch will slip before the driveline goes, so you may need to get a stronger clutch.

If you have an all forged motor, you should be able to run a 200-300 shot easy!

Just my $.02.

 

[Jack B]

so whats the best way to tune the engine as far as a tuning product goes? vec3, split sec, sct, etc?

The SCT does the most, plus some.

 

[Jack B]

Definitely Nitrous with the nitrogen push setup. Nitrogen push is safer than a bottle heater and you can be precise with desired pressure. Bottle heaters can become a fire hazard, and if you live in a hot climate, be careful or you risk blowing the safety valve.

Now if you REALLY want to be safe with the nitrous, get a direct port injection system. It's expensive, but then you know each cylinder is getting the exact amount the jets provide; no more, no less. That can also be safer because if you're running a wet kit you don't have to worry about residual gas/nitrous in the intake that could grenade your intake on a backfire.

Forget an AFR gauge, the car goes open circuit at WOT, so reading it is pretty much useless, plus even if you're able to read the gauge while flying down the track, a lean AFR will happen so fast that it's highly unlikely you're going to lift off the throttle in time to save your motor. You're better off getting a good calibration done where you have a good AFR mix at WOT and let the safety mechanisms work for you (fuel pressure cutoff, timing retard).

As others have said, to dip into the 10s you'll need some drag radials or slicks. I have no idea how strong the driveline is, but I'd wager to say the clutch will slip before the driveline goes, so you may need to get a stronger clutch.

If you have an all forged motor, you should be able to run a 200-300 shot easy!

Just my $.02.

Some good insight, but, you missed a big one. You absolutely need the a/f input. However, you are right, a gauge will not work, you have to log. You just cannot guess, you have to log and work your way into a safe a/f ratio.

 

[jay01m]

Some good insight, but, you missed a big one. You absolutely need the a/f input. However, you are right, a gauge will not work, you have to log. You just cannot guess, you have to log and work your way into a safe a/f ratio.

You're absolutely right. When I said forget the gauge, I didn't mean forget analyzing data read by the O2 sensors. That's crucial to getting her dialed in.

Another thing. If you roll with a dry system, pay attention to the injector duty cycle and ensure it stays below about 80%. That way your injectors (and computer) can keep up with the nitrous. I mention that because I personally prefer a dry system and using bigger injectors (and fuel pump if needed) to deliver enough fuel. Doing it that way allows the computer to more precisely control the amount of fuel delivered in order to get the right AFRs when nitrous is flowing.

 

[Jack B]

You're absolutely right. When I said forget the gauge, I didn't mean forget analyzing data read by the O2 sensors. That's crucial to getting her dialed in.

Another thing. If you roll with a dry system, pay attention to the injector duty cycle and ensure it stays below about 80%. That way your injectors (and computer) can keep up with the nitrous. I mention that because I personally prefer a dry system and using bigger injectors (and fuel pump if needed) to deliver enough fuel. Doing it that way allows the computer to more precisely control the amount of fuel delivered in order to get the right AFRs when nitrous is flowing.

These cars are difficult to set up dry. You would be tempting fate. You are correct about the injectors. It does not take much to go static. The stock PCM shows 17msec at max rpm and wot.

 

[jay01m]

These cars are difficult to set up dry. You would be tempting fate. You are correct about the injectors. It does not take much to go static. The stock PCM shows 17msec at max rpm and wot.

I can't imagine it being more difficult than any other car. As long as you can maintain a constant nitrous pressure, you should be able to easily determine required injector duty cycle at WOT to get the right AFRs, and tune the fuel tables to match. This should be done on the road in real life driving conditions though, not on a dyno. An EASE scanner should be all you need to figure that out.

What is the injector duty cycle at 17ms? What size are the injectors? I'm guessing it would be somewhere around 30, which I would think is pretty low for even a bone stock Viper.

 

[Jack B]

I can't imagine it being more difficult than any other car. As long as you can maintain a constant nitrous pressure, you should be able to easily determine required injector duty cycle at WOT to get the right AFRs, and tune the fuel tables to match. This should be done on the road in real life driving conditions though, not on a dyno. An EASE scanner should be all you need to figure that out.

What is the injector duty cycle at 17ms? What size are the injectors? I'm guessing it would be somewhere around 30, which I would think is pretty low for even a bone stock Viper.

The injectors are 29 lb at 55 psi. These cars go static (85%) at about 500 rwhp.

As far as the spraying dry and using injector offset, you just do not get good mixing. You want to get the nitrous and atomized fuel mixing far before they hit the chamber. In affect use the nitrous to further atomize the mixture, this cannot be done if you go dry.

 

[RTTTTed]

I love my Roe. My 98 GTS Roe and water/**** with Hi-flos and RT exhaust made 602rwhp/644rwtq with everything else being stock. The torque was nearly a flat line across the dyno sheet from 2,000rpm. Add a little (75-100hp) Nitrous kit for an extra instant 125-150rwhp. Take smaller jets and DRs so you don't go to fast, LOL.

Ted

 

[lead foot dan]

have a set of purner wheels and tires with slicks dont think they are good any more need to upgrade half shafts for slicks...

 

[1fast400]

Just as an FYI, they took a low 11 second group for the pinks at zmax this weekend. My 9.80's at 150 on 10lbs of boost and 20" invo's wasn't good enough to get picked!

 

[RTTTTed]

Just as an FYI, they took a low 11 second group for the pinks at zmax this weekend. My 9.80's at 150 on 10lbs of boost and 20" invo's wasn't good enough to get picked!

That will mean that RDP's 9.1 sec UTE goes onto the cutting room floor too.

Usually they pick a 10sec group from the ones I've watched.

Ted