I want to go ROAD Course Racing, BUT R our BREAKS this bad ?

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

The title of the video says the guy losted his breaks. Is that what really happened ?? or did he just go in too hot ?? I'd hate to have this happen to me, when I go out on a road course, matter of fact, if this is common, I WONT be going out on a road course with my viper !! Personally, I think its driver error, but I am not looking to start anything, I just want to know if this is common on some versions of our cars ?? I would think the newer ones 2001/2002 with ABS are not as prone to this ?


http://www.bigredfish.com/mike_teri/vipercrash.mpeg

-Jon

 

[RC Viper]

There is good news and bad news. The video you posted is of a VCA member at the Carolina Motorsports Park in Kershaw SC. The accident was in fact caused by a complete brake failure (including the emergency brake), but the car in question had a four wheel brake upgrade (I think Stop Tech) so it was not a failure of the stock brakes. That's the good news as it relates to you running your car on the track. The bad news is that stock Viper brakes for 2002 or earlier models are not the greatest for a racing applications. You can fix this in several ways. The best (and most expensive) is to do a four wheel upgrade. This will run you about $5K. If cost is a factor you can simply put on upgraded front rotors (I use Stop Tech slotted rotors), racing brake pads (I use Brakeman #3), stainless steel brake lines, and racing brake fluid (I use Motul 600). I have been running my car for over two years with this set up and have been satisfied. You have to be aware that you can't try to brake with a Ferrari Challenge Series car, but you can still be competitive.

 

[monnieh]

It's probally cause his friend removed the air filters.

But seriously, I usually just hear about really bad brake fad.

But I am not talking from experience so I need to be quite.

 

[Janni]

Jon,
You have a wealth of road racing knowledge right in your local club. Both our cars have stock brake systems. Check out the ViperDays website - Past Results. Anyone in Stock or Super Stock has stock brakes and they don't seem to be suffering. MINOR upgrades like Randy pointed out will make your system better, and your ABS car has dynamic proportioning which is much better than pre-ABS cars.

The video you reference was a car with highly modified brakes - not StopTech - but certainly had been worked on by a variety of folks - and had very FEW stock parts.

Brakes aren't rocket science and ours are pretty good - just have to learn to use them effectively.

 

[RC Viper]

I stand corrected. Did not mean to bad mouth Stop Tech. They make some good stuff. Just meant non-stock brakes!

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

I have StopTech front and never had problems but stock setup *****.

 

[Janni]

Please tell that to the guys running ViperDays like Tom Atherton and Hoosier Daddy (Alan M).....

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

I don't have to tell them...they know that the brakes **** LOL

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

I don't have to tell them...they know that the brakes **** LOL

Actually I think the stock setup is marvelous. There is no need to tell me that you are full of garbage. Get some time under your belt there rookie, driving something that requires driver input instead of posing in vettes with all the whistles most of your life.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Track the car, that’s what it was built for. Don’t drive past the limits of you or the car and you’ll be fine. Just go out and have some fun, it aint The 24 Hours of Daytona.

In my experiences I was able to tell when there was something not quite right with the brakes and was lucky enough to back off in time. Once I fried the pads (aftermarket pads, stock system), once I was leaking fluid out the valve, once I fried the fluid. Every time it was my fault and not the brakes.

 

[jrkermode]

I've run my 2002 at Sears Point and Thunderhill. Never had any kind of problems (fade, wear, etc..) with the stock brakes. I suspect most of the guys who complain either, just like to complain or have mods that allow them to enter corners much faster than a stock Viper.

 

[Dixter]

From my very limited experience with stock Viper Brakes on a road course track.

1) Make sure your brake fluids are changed regularly. And get a good fluid
with a high temp rating. This will help to keep the fluid boiling down.
If your brake fluid looks dark, its time to change it.

2) Make sure the brake pads have plenty of pad on them. New pads do not hurt
for each race. A thin pad will allow more heat to get to the callipers and
heat is not a good thing to have on the fluids.

3) Remove the center caps on your wheels. When the wheels get hot they will
expand and the center caps will come off of your wheels. And your wheels "will"
get very hot.

4) After racing or practicing, allways do a slow " cool off lap " for your engine and the wheels and brakes to cool off.

5) After coming into the pits after a race or practice. " Do Not " use your parking brake after you have turned your car off. This can warp the rotors.
I have been told.


So to the line " I lost my brakes " .... the first time I went to a track
event I thought I had covered all the bases before I got to the track. But
during the safety inspect I was told that my fluids were marginal and the pads
were on the edge of not acceptable. I didn't have either at the track to change
out so I elected to instead become a spectator of the event. But the owner of the track asked if I would like to " lead and follow " for a couple of laps. Not at top speed mind you either. So I jumped at the chance and he lead while I followed for a couple of laps around the track. We did this for around 10 laps if I remember correctly. Well, as I was told earlier, fluids and pads marginal for racing...
In one corner the fluids finally started to boil and " I lost my brakes "
That means, brake pedal on the floor and not stopping. Good we werent' going
that fast.

I do know that I replaced the pads and fluids the next day. They would have
been more than fine for street use. But not the track. So that being said.
I do believe that the stock brakes can work fine on the track, just make darn
sure that everything is new and maintained before you get on the track, or
you might be talking real real nice to the insurance agent on Monday.

 

[NCVCA]

Stock brakes are very serviceable at 10/10ths on track. They require maintenance like any other part. The Carolinas region has a HUGE number of road racers that have seen just about everything and are more than willing to help anyone who wants it.

Plan on attending Viper Days at V.I.R. this year. Among the best tracks in the US run by an incredible group.

 

[timz06]

As mentioned above, this has nothing to do with the quality or lack thereof of the viper's brakes. It is a matter of flushing brake fluid, and putting in fluid with a high temp. Brake fluid absorbs water over time, thus brake fluid has a dry and wet boiling point. I run valvoline sythetic which is not the best, but is fine if you bleed your brakes. It has a dry boiling point of over 500 deg, but a wet point of around 350 deg. So if you absorb water you are losing 150 deg. Normal fluid is even worse. THe best are fluids like motul blue that have dry boiling temps around 600 degl Anyway, last weekend at cmp we saw a couple of rustangs who boiled thier fluid, luckily they weren't going into turn one like the vid. Change your fluid with decent stuff before every eventy and your brakes will not go out. Even if your pads are worn to the metal you will still have most of your brakes.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Stock brake failure (fluid boiling most common failure) on a road course depends on the drivers skill level and driving technique.

A good driver will boil stock brakes at Thunderhill, Laguna Seca and other tracks that are know for brake consumption, in one - 4 laps.

This can be improved dramatically by going to Motul 600 fluid and adding deflectors(to cool the rotors).

Add Hoosiers or slicks which increase grip which in turn increases the work load for brakes.

It is all about energy management.

Before going to a road course take a few Skip Barber Driving schools(discounted to VCA members). For road racing go to a Viper Days which has complete track side service(John Archer or Bobby Archer) to take care of your brake improvement needs.

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

I don't have to tell them...they know that the brakes **** LOL

Actually I think the stock setup is marvelous. There is no need to tell me that you are full of garbage. Get some time under your belt there rookie, driving something that requires driver input instead of posing in vettes with all the whistles most of your life.

What are you talking about? You must be the alpha and the omega of road racing.
Vettes most of my life...*** where do you get your data from?...CNN? I had my Vette as long as I have my Viper. Bring your car to Watkins Glen in May so you can put your foot where your mouth is.

As for the rest of you...I boiled my fluid the first day at Watkins Glen and also at Mid-Ohio. It would get scary going fast and having to pump your brakes before the braking marker. After I changed my setup to Stoptech with brakeman fluid and pads the problem went away.

I also boiled the power steering fluid at Mid-Ohio. Bill Pemberton had me make an overflow bottle that worked. Later I moved my power steering hose away from the headers and changed the fluid to Redline. That fixed the problem.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I don't have to tell them...they know that the brakes **** LOL

Actually I think the stock setup is marvelous. There is no need to tell me that you are full of garbage. Get some time under your belt there rookie, driving something that requires driver input instead of posing in vettes with all the whistles most of your life.

What are you talking about? You must be the alpha and the omega of road racing.

If there is an alpha/omega of road racing, and if alpha/omega means good, Alan would be it.

 

[Brad04Mamba]

Went to Thunderhill this weekend and went both routes. First two runs were with stock pads and fluid. Had to change the pads all around, from Archer Racing (can't tell you what kind of pads but according to them much better than stock). On my third session on the last lap the peddle went to the floor, boiled the fluid. Went in replaced fluid with Motul 600, was told my front rotors were shot, installed Stop Tech slotted rotors. On my next run my times dropped from 2:16 to 2:11. Everyone I talked to said the stock set up was terrible, now maybe a real good driver can get by with stock but if I were you I would at least upgrade fluid and pads.

Brad

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

Alpha and omega means beginning and the end. Meaning = knows everything.
I don't doubt that he is good but there is no need to tell me that I'm full of garbage.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Alpha and omega means beginning and the end. Meaning = knows everything.
I don't doubt that he is good but there is no need to tell me that I'm full of garbage.

LOL Well you two are right close to each other. Settle it. LOL

 

[Viper Specialty]

ELDIABLO- Hoosier didnt say you were full of garbage, read the sentance again:

"There is no need to tell ME that YOU ARE(I am) full of garbage"

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

ELDIABLO- Hoosier didnt say you were full of garbage, read the sentance again:

"There is no need to tell ME that YOU ARE(I am) full of garbage"

how can you read you are to I am?

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Wow, ok guys step back and breath. This has been great information, I already now know to upgrade my fluid to help reduce likelyhood of boiling fluid, but lets not get into fights. This was a post was a request for feedback, based on peoples experience and their opinion. I got just the information I needed. I'll make my decision from that.

Janni, I KNOW I have a huge wealth of knowledge in my local club, don't you see the smile on my face every time I get near you guys ?? I also know that it can be a pain in the BUTT, when some kid wont shut up with all his questions. I wanted to avoid that, and make sure I also utilize this message board. Don't worry, you and Henry are FAR from over with me bugging ya for information !! thanks.

-Jon

 

[JimT 99RT]

I was at Thunderhill and was by no means a fast guy, but before I went to the track I put on Stoptech steel brake lines and did a complete fluid flush with Motul 600. I have Baer slotted and drilled rotors. I left the stock pads on since there was not much wear on them. My brakes were good for the event with no fading. I am sure if I went again though that stock pads would not last for both days. I got into the brakes much heavier the second day without any fade. Changing the brake lines out was a pretty easy job, but if you don't want to do it, make an appointment with John Archer at Archer racing they provide superior service at the track. New rotors, brake lines, pads, and a fluid flush are well worth the money and piece of mind it will bring you.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Brad,

Very good lap time! May want to consider a CC or offer to driver Jerry's(you could be the 2nd driver in an endurance event).

Going quicker means more energy and more brake force unless you are Tommy Archer-just lift a little to transfer the weight to the front for better grip. Remember the 24 hour Le Mans drivers have to learn to be extra smooooth and save the brake. All good endurance drivers consider all aspects of saving time, on course, in the pits, etc.

But for the weekend enthusiast going faster means more work for the brakes. Cooling the pads with deflectors (via the rotors) will help extend the life of the pads and fluid.

Bottom line start with Motul 600 and deflectors and as you get faster more brake upgrades ma be needed. Go to a ViperDays event(I suggest a couple Skip Barber schools first) there is a ton of help and great info available. Skip, Courtney, Tracy etc. operate the best Open Track experience for viper owners. Track side support by John Archer(typical service fluid changes, pad changes, alignment, install a new tranny or diff., plus accessories ) and Bobby Archer (tires and safety equipment).

John Archer's track side service is a life saver for those with out a pit chew. At Thunderhill they noticed a leaky piston on a front StopTech Caliper, when changing pads. No big deal they rebuilt the caliper and got me "safely" back on track.

Summary want to road race:
1. Driving School
2. Brake fluid upgrade(available at ViperDays, by John Archer)
3. Deflector for cooling rotors(Available at ViperDays, by John Archer)
4. ViperDays
5. Repeat 1 and 4 as much as possible and upgrade you Viper to match your skill.

 

[Brad04Mamba]

Thanks Fred, I'll bring this up to Jerry, I don't see why he wouldn't let me borrow the CC sometimes

I would also like to thank John Archer, the confidence of knowing your going to be able to slow down from 130mph in order to make a turn is priceless.

Brad